Leeann Dempster

[Jones28]

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I’m wondering where you’ve been hiding the last twenty years...

What I meant was the loss of all the history of our separate leagues which have been left untouched. If we are allowing the break up of our league system in favour of some British league in which we will be swept away by basically every team in the EPL and the top half of the championship then the games ****ed.

[Jones28]

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I agree with your assessment regarding away support. Hibs furthest regular away game is Aberdeen at the moment and that's seen as a fair journey, I can only imagine how we would do when it came to games south of northern England if it came to it. I think we would do OK in London though coz there must be a fair few Hibbies living there who would back the club in games down there.

It has to be remembered that the context of this debate is the biggest English clubs playing in a European super league … if that left gaps to be plugged the TV money the Uglies would attract would be attractive in this money driven era … and if nothing else Edinburgh would be seen as a desirable destination for away supporters which would gain us some support with English fans.

Lets face it, if England needed to replace lets say 6 of their biggest clubs what would be more desirable …. two teams with a probable 60 and 50 thousand average and big stadiums and another 3 with decent stadiums and the potential to attract between 15 and 20 thousand fans to their home games, or 5 clubs from the arse end of the EFL pyramid with nowhere to go regarding an increase in attendances and little or no chance of strengthening the competitive nature of the leagues?

Yepp agree with that. But like I say, Scottish football may be parochial and petty and we may play the same teams four times a season but I think that makes things better in a way, especially when the top six are all competing for Euro places. Last season we effectively had five cup finals and it made for a really tight run in. It was brilliant.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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What I meant was the loss of all the history of our separate leagues which have been left untouched. If we are allowing the break up of our league system in favour of some British league in which we will be swept away by basically every team in the EPL and the top half of the championship then the games ****ed.

Why would we be swept away? Plenty of clubs of a similar size to Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen have made a dent in English football, certainly at Championship level, and as part of a British structure we would be far more attractive a proposition for investment than we are currently. If somebody can look at AFC Bournemouth or Bristol,City as a good proposition for investment then surely a club like Hibs from one of the UK's best cities and with a fan base easily as good as theirs would be as well.

Its like the old 'could Celtic and Sevco survive in the EPL?' argument where folk look at them as they are now and laugh at the prospect without factoring in the fact that in that environment they would have as much money as most of the giants they would be up against and a significantly better support than most of them.

[Lago]

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Yepp agree with that. But like I say, Scottish football may be parochial and petty and we may play the same teams four times a season but I think that makes things better in a way, especially when the top six are all competing for Euro places. Last season we effectively had five cup finals and it made for a really tight run in. It was brilliant.

Unfortunately the current league set up in Scotland is unsustainable in it's present form. Too many clubs, too small attendances can't support the number of full time players. Eventually clubs will have to go part time or bust.

[Since452]

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Unfortunately the current league set up in Scotland is unsustainable in it's present form. Too many clubs, too small attendances can't support the number of full time players. Eventually clubs will have to go part time or bust.

I agree. The constant copying of England doesn't help. We should have 2 leagues and the rest should all be regionalised.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Unfortunately the current league set up in Scotland is unsustainable in it's present form. Too many clubs, too small attendances can't support the number of full time players. Eventually clubs will have to go part time or bust.

This may well be true unfortunately. For most of our full time clubs the model is only sustainable just now because of TV and sponsorship money, most of them are one bust TV deal or lost national sponsorship deal away from part time set ups. As it is even now its a miracle that the likes of Livingston, Hamilton and even Kilmarnock are full time … never mind clubs outside of the premiership like Queen of the South and Raith Rovers for example.

It may well come to a stage where being part of a British set up wont just be desirable for clubs like Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen … it will be the only pathway available to maintain full time professional football in Scotland. Its not such an outlandish idea, when it turned professional that's exactly what happened to Rugby … it took them 5 minutes to realise that Scotland couldn't possibly sustain a pro or even semi pro league.

I could see a time ( not a certainty, but theoretically possible ) where in a vape smoke filled back room somewhere the big city clubs get together and put together a proposal to put to the EFL. That being admission of the big 5 and a joint Dundee club to the EFL structure in some way. On its own that may not be attractive, but if SKY or BT were to come on board with it and offer a substantial kick back to the EFL then greed will find a way.

Already the English premiership is becoming detached from the rest of English football. Clubs are going up and down like bloomin' yo yoes with the same clubs making up the bulk of the league every year and in that scenario perhaps the EFL wouldn't be too averse to freshening up their own leagues with the introduction of some new blood who might have the potential to be more than just makeweights.

[Jones28]

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Why would we be swept away? Plenty of clubs of a similar size to Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen have made a dent in English football, certainly at Championship level, and as part of a British structure we would be far more attractive a proposition for investment than we are currently. If somebody can look at AFC Bournemouth or Bristol,City as a good proposition for investment then surely a club like Hibs from one of the UK's best cities and with a fan base easily as good as theirs would be as well.

Its like the old 'could Celtic and Sevco survive in the EPL?' argument where folk look at them as they are now and laugh at the prospect without factoring in the fact that in that environment they would have as much money as most of the giants they would be up against and a significantly better support than most of them.

We would drown in the first season without serious money being put down by the league upfront rather than as prize money or an investor, we would then be relegated and spend time in the doldrums of the British championship, playing Milwall and Ipswich and all the other pish.

Celtic and to a lesser extent rangers would be in a position to be premier league ready without relying on prize money offered up at the end of the season.

We would never play European football again as well.

[Jones28]

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Unfortunately the current league set up in Scotland is unsustainable in it's present form. Too many clubs, too small attendances can't support the number of full time players. Eventually clubs will have to go part time or bust.

I agree, but remain and reform is easily the best policy. We need the following imo

- a revamp of the entire league set up, with two top divisions with the rest of the teams being put in to regional leagues. I would have the current highland league, east coast north for everything north of fife, east coast south for everything else in the east and a central west league, everything to the west of the Kincardine bridge plays in a league encompassing central Scotland, Glasgow, Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway. Just my take on it.

- have a pyramid system in place that allows for progression from the very bottom up.

- a top division of perhaps 16 teams, home and away once a season but keep the split with 3 relegations to keep the bottom half competitive and all three europa league spots kept to league only to do the same at the top.

- STOP COPYING ENGLAND. It's pathetic.

- merge the governing bodies to have 1 single set up called the SFA which has jurisdiction over all of Scottish football.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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We would drown in the first season without serious money being put down by the league upfront rather than as prize money or an investor, we would then be relegated and spend time in the doldrums of the British championship, playing Milwall and Ipswich and all the other pish.

Celtic and to a lesser extent rangers would be in a position to be premier league ready without relying on prize money offered up at the end of the season.

We would never play European football again as well.

Or on the other hand theoretically we would be playing European football every week

My take on it would be that if such a thing as a British league were to come to pass ( I am under no illusions that its very much a long shot ) then it wouldn't happen overnight. My guess is that it would be at least 3 years between inception and it starting. More than enough time for the likes of us to go looking for new investment. Not least of all from a number of huge Scottish companies who because of the small market the likes of Hibs operate in have ignored both Hibs and Scottish football.

[Jones28]

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Or on the other hand theoretically we would be playing European football every week

My take on it would be that if such a thing as a British league were to come to pass ( I am under no illusions that its very much a long shot ) then it wouldn't happen overnight. My guess is that it would be at least 3 years between inception and it starting. More than enough time for the likes of us to go looking for new investment. Not least of all from a number of huge Scottish companies who because of the small market the likes of Hibs operate in have ignored both Hibs and Scottish football.

That's a positive spin 😂

This whole looking for new investment thing: Willie Miller I'm sure just mentioned Americans investing in Aberdeen, American consortiums have invested in both Dundee clubs, Hearts have had considerable cash injections from mystery benefactors - what are we doing wrong that means we can't get the same investment? STF has always said the club is always for sale to the right people, but why are we not attracting investment from the same guys who see the other clubs on the east coast as opportunities?

[NAE NOOKIE]

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I agree, but remain and reform is easily the best policy. We need the following imo

- a revamp of the entire league set up, with two top divisions with the rest of the teams being put in to regional leagues. I would have the current highland league, east coast north for everything north of fife, east coast south for everything else in the east and a central west league, everything to the west of the Kincardine bridge plays in a league encompassing central Scotland, Glasgow, Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway. Just my take on it.

- have a pyramid system in place that allows for progression from the very bottom up.

- a top division of perhaps 16 teams, home and away once a season but keep the split with 3 relegations to keep the bottom half competitive and all three europa league spots kept to league only to do the same at the top.

- STOP COPYING ENGLAND. It's pathetic.

- merge the governing bodies to have 1 single set up called the SFA which has jurisdiction over all of Scottish football.

Cant disagree with any of this. Its mental that we have 4 national leagues, as you say make it two leagues, lets say a 16 team top league and an 18 team 2nd division with regional leagues, north and south below that would be more than enough. A merger between the SPFL and SFA is such a no brainer its not true … its ludicrous that a small country like Scotland has two governing bodies.

And as you say STOP COPYING ENGLAND ! There was absolutely nothing wrong with the SPL followed by the first division etc, the only reason for changing it to the Scottish premiership and championship was because that's what they have in England .. I agree, pathetic.

[bigwheel]

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Cant disagree with any of this. Its mental that we have 4 national leagues, as you say make it two leagues, lets say a 16 team top league and an 18 team 2nd division with regional leagues, north and south below that would be more than enough. A merger between the SPFL and SFA is such a no brainer its not true … its ludicrous that a small country like Scotland has two governing bodies.

And as you say STOP COPYING ENGLAND ! There was absolutely nothing wrong with the SPL followed by the first division etc, the only reason for changing it to the Scottish premiership and championship was because that's what they have in England .. I agree, pathetic.

Our top league is good enough for me - almost every game meaningful..with a 16 league, too many teams will be in no mans land - not in danger of going down, no opportunity of Europe...no thanks for me.. We do have small country - that's why a small top league is appropriate. Not perfect - but the best we can have for now...I recall the early 70s with too many meaningless games..wouldn't want a return to that.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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That's a positive spin 😂

This whole looking for new investment thing: Willie Miller I'm sure just mentioned Americans investing in Aberdeen, American consortiums have invested in both Dundee clubs, Hearts have had considerable cash injections from mystery benefactors - what are we doing wrong that means we can't get the same investment? STF has always said the club is always for sale to the right people, but why are we not attracting investment from the same guys who see the other clubs on the east coast as opportunities?

Its a fair question and the answer is I don't know. Whether wealthy Yanks is a good or bad thing is hard to say, they don't seem to have done Dundee much good and even alleged plans for a new stadium seem like just talk.

It does seem that in pound for pound the second wealthiest city in the UK both Hibs and Hearts have singularly failed to attract anything like meaningful investment from the enormous wealth that surrounds them ….. perhaps they really are all rugby bufters and golfers

[Weegreenman]

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Stirrer! There’s some truth in that devilment :)

For me the lack of good customer experience when Trying to get tickets is a big frustrating issue ..I support loyalty points as it enables those who go regularly to have a better chance.

If we don’t go that direction - I’d prefer we had a ballot..you register your interest and you get lucky or not ...spending 2 hours grappling around to get a ticket on ticketmaster is very poor experience... off topic
Alert !!

Im with you on this, to the point I don’t even bother grappling as you put it. It’s a dangerous game clubs play because the more I watch football on TV, the more chance I’ll do that in the future instead of actually going to certain games. It might become a bad habit so to speak.

[Iggy Pope]

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I agree. The constant copying of England doesn't help. We should have 2 leagues and the rest should all be regionalised.

We could copy England in that very respect. Non league right enough, and it doesn’t come without its issues down there when it comes to promotion and relegation, but I’m sure a country as small as ours could regionalise two lower leagues bringing Highland and Lowland sides into the equation too.

[Lago]

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I agree, but remain and reform is easily the best policy. We need the following imo

- a revamp of the entire league set up, with two top divisions with the rest of the teams being put in to regional leagues. I would have the current highland league, east coast north for everything north of fife, east coast south for everything else in the east and a central west league, everything to the west of the Kincardine bridge plays in a league encompassing central Scotland, Glasgow, Ayrshire and Dumfries and Galloway. Just my take on it.

- have a pyramid system in place that allows for progression from the very bottom up.

- a top division of perhaps 16 teams, home and away once a season but keep the split with 3 relegations to keep the bottom half competitive and all three europa league spots kept to league only to do the same at the top.

- STOP COPYING ENGLAND. It's pathetic.

- merge the governing bodies to have 1 single set up called the SFA which has jurisdiction over all of Scottish football.

Some very good points, specifically the merger of the 2 governing bodies, the reduction of & regionalisation of the leagues, but then the problems, getting clubs & office bearers to vote for their own demise. Can't see it happening myself.

[danhibees1875]

I'm not too fussed about merging the leagues for a variety of reasons. Expanding the league cup to be a British cup every other year could be an interesting way to mix things up though. If nothing else would provide some different teams every 2 years in tournaments that have lost their glamour a bit.

[Dashing Bob S]

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What I meant was the loss of all the history of our separate leagues which have been left untouched. If we are allowing the break up of our league system in favour of some British league in which we will be swept away by basically every team in the EPL and the top half of the championship then the games ****ed.

Our history is largely one of two clubs exploiting and cementing sectarian divisions to keep themselves in an artificial position of prominence. Don’t think it’s much to be proud of tbh.

[Jones28]

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Our history is largely one of two clubs exploiting and cementing sectarian divisions to keep themselves in an artificial position of prominence. Don’t think it’s much to be proud of tbh.

That's a very pessimistic viewpoint.

[Scott Allan Key]

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Why? A British league is senseless. English teams don't want Scottish teams in their league - least of all Celtic and Rangers - and I can't see fans snapping up tickets for away games any further south of Yorkshire.

As for a Scandinavian league, what would be the point?

They have Welsh teams already, and I’m looking forward many years from now. Hibs, Hearts, Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen in a lucrative Championship and Premier League, with strict liability, is plausible.

The proposed expansion of Europa League and/or an Atlantic league with top clubs from Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Scandinavia and Scotland is the way the wind is blowing as elite clubs look to endorse a closed shop in the Champions’ League. We’ll need the money gained from better opponents and a considerable tv deal to be competitive as a club and it could forestall the smaller investment from our fans in comparison with Hearts and Aberdeen.


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[Jones28]

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They have Welsh teams already, and I’m looking forward many years from now. Hibs, Hearts, Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen in a lucrative Championship and Premier League, with strict liability, is plausible.

The proposed expansion of Europa League and/or an Atlantic league with top clubs from Netherlands, Belgium, Portugal, Scandinavia and Scotland is the way the wind is blowing as elite clubs look to endorse a closed shop in the Champions’ League. We’ll need the money gained from better opponents and a considerable tv deal to be competitive as a club and it could forestall the smaller investment from our fans in comparison with Hearts and Aberdeen.


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Wales is very different to Scotland - 2 main cities each with relatively big teams compared to the rest of the welsh teams that are tiny by comparison. Scotland has 2 "giants" (bigger than either Swansea or Cardiff City), several clubs in the next tier (us, Hearts, Aberdeen), then the next tier (both Dundee teams, St Johnston, Motherwell, ICT, Kilmarnock, Partick Thistle) and then further below that (Falkirk, Ross County, Hamilton) with the rest still coming from reasonably large population areas and towns.

I would welcome the idea of a separate European competition away from the Europa League and leaving the giants of European football to slug it out in a closed competition. I couldn't give a flying **** about any of them, they are such large fish in their respective ponds that it wouldn't surprise me to see the likes of the 5th, 6th or 7th placed teams in the big leagues beg for a chance to play in the new incarnation.

But the whole reason that TV companies pay big money to the big leagues is the attraction of the big teams, it's almost no different to asking why Scotland gets so little in TV money compared to the EPL - because they have the draw of Man U, Citeh, Liverpool, Chelsea etc. with big games being played often (these teams usually play each other or other bigger teams once a week) whereas we have four old firm games and four Edinburgh derbies a season.

People around the world are not going to queue up to watch Hibs v Gent, or Aberdeen v Brondby when Bayern are playing Juventus on the other side. The problem with Scottish football is that we have poor negotiators that mean we have one of the worst TV deals in Europe, despite having more people going to watch the games compared to population than anywhere else in Europe. The answer to this problem is a self-funded TV station. £10/month and you can watch any top level game. Take the money away from Sky and BT and get it back into the Scottish game. Alternatively get a third party in and give them exclusive rights. I honestly don't know what will work but I know it needs to be a radical shake up.

[Jones28]

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Our top league is good enough for me - almost every game meaningful..with a 16 league, too many teams will be in no mans land - not in danger of going down, no opportunity of Europe...no thanks for me.. We do have small country - that's why a small top league is appropriate. Not perfect - but the best we can have for now...I recall the early 70s with too many meaningless games..wouldn't want a return to that.

Thats why I would argue making the European slots exclusive to league position and having increased numbers of relegation spots. A 16 team league (18 for is too much) gives 39 games, post split would give two halves of 8, with four European spots up for grabs and 3 relegation spots. Yes there would potentially be some dead rubber for the teams right in the middle but that will most likely be the case this year for Motherwell, Livingston and St Johnston.

[Jones28]

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Unfortunately the current league set up in Scotland is unsustainable in it's present form. Too many clubs, too small attendances can't support the number of full time players. Eventually clubs will have to go part time or bust.

I can't disagree with that. There are four clubs in Angus FFS, it must be the highest ratio of clubs to population in the UK.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I can't disagree with that. There are four clubs in Angus FFS, it must be the highest ratio of clubs to population in the UK.

I've never understood why people are so desperate to close these wee clubs down. What harm is it doing for folk from Montrose, Arbroath, Forfar and Brechin to have a team in their town to follow? They represent a couple of thousand fans between them, who might not even want to travel to Dundee or wherever. There's nothing wrong with small well run clubs playing at their own level.

The only mergers that could conceivably make much difference at the top of the Scottish game are us and Them and the Dundee clubs. And who wants that?

[Jones28]

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I've never understood why people are so desperate to close these wee clubs down. What harm is it doing for folk from Montrose, Arbroath, Forfar and Brechin to have a team in their town to follow? They represent a couple of thousand fans between them, who might not even want to travel to Dundee or wherever. There's nothing wrong with small well run clubs playing at their own level.

The only mergers that could conceivably make much difference at the top of the Scottish game are us and Them and the Dundee clubs. And who wants that?

I said nothing about mergers? I stated that Angus has 4 clubs, I said nothing about closing them down.

[marinello59]

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I can't disagree with that. There are four clubs in Angus FFS, it must be the highest ratio of clubs to population in the UK.

Yet they continue to exist and provide a source of pride and enjoyment to their local communities. It’s been bigger clubs who have gone closest to disappearing, look at Sevco, Hearts, Dundee etc. Scottish football would be much poorer without these ‘wee’ clubs.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I said nothing about mergers? I stated that Angus has 4 clubs, I said nothing about closing them down.

True, sorry, I was generalising because people often do.

[bigwheel]

Deleted .. should have read the first post

[Diclonius]

Wholesale British league with Scottish/Welsh/NI teams being added to leagues on basis of market value - would put us/Hearts/Aberdeen in League One somewhere.
Retain Scottish Cup with same format as before.
Replace all national League Cups with British Cup - semi finals at neutral venues equidistant from the two teams involved (i.e. not London/Glasgow) and final rotating between Wembley, Millennium Stadium, an expanded Hampden Park and an NI stadium if one is built to an acceptable capacity.

Or if the above are unfeasible, then just do the British Cup thing.

[Hibbyradge]

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Not read this whole thread - but have people picked up on the Leanne Dempster podcast via Nutmeg magazine that got released recently. Excellent 45 mins (ish) interview with her - about her history and current world ..

Dispels some .Net myths. (For example: she confirms not only was Stubbs not getting sacked , she actively tried to get him to change his mind when he chose to leave to Rotherham) ..


Worth a listen if you’ve missed it ..

You probably should have read the OP.