Foundation of Hearts/Budge/Fan Ownership

[Col2]

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Be interesting to read this tomorrow, and ultimately, where it leaves those who put their money in expecting fan ownership down the line.

While on one level it’s commendable that Hearts fans have contributed so much, it’s difficult to see what benefit they have got or will get from this.

I read somewhere people paying £100/£200 per month since 2014 which is astonishing. One guy admired it meant sacrifices at home but was proud to contribute. So what have they achieved:-

- Raised £8m with majority going to club in running costs
- Pay back Budge and essentially fund her disasterous main stand cost over run bu c80%
- zero football success and finished behind Hibs last season who have reached two major finals and won one of them in that time
- hemorrhaged cash on major squad overhauls, wasting £££s on dud players.
- now admission that Budge will comtnue to run the club, her way, all the decisions made by her so little change.
- Levein will continue at the club in one capacity or another given the special relationship they have.
- maybe a shiny share certificate is issued so at least that is something.

They should be well ahead on and off the park but in reality stumble from one transition to another. If I was involved in running FOH and had overseen raising of £8m (almost 4 times Budge investment) I would be demanding a far more powerful influence on the board. That guy Wallace is a patsy.

[NAE NOOKIE]

You can see where she's coming from to be honest. As a couple of posters have already alluded to fan ownership is one thing, fans running a club is entirely different.

You cant run a football club like a democracy giving the fans a vote on what happens on a day to day basis, nothing would ever get done. That's why the model which prevails on the continent would probably be best where the fans elect a president and he or she along with the board make the decisions. That doesn't exclude the fans from having a presence on the board to put their point of view of course, which is what HSL will soon be able to do whether we had an elected president or not.

But as a member of the board, fan elected or not, that board member will have to cast their vote based on what is best for the club in a business sense. A good example would be the question of whether or not to give the Ugly sisters the whole of the south. From an emotional point of view a lot of fans would love to see their allocation reduced on an ongoing basis, including I'm sure a load of HSL members, but as a member of the board of a business to vote to consistently deny the club's coffers hundreds of thousands of pounds based on sentiment would be viewed by the authorities whose job it is to ensure businesses conduct their affairs in a professional manner as a dereliction of duty, especially if the club was running at a loss.


As I've said a number of times on here, I have gone from being a supporter of overall fan ownership to being extremely dubious as to the wisdom of it for a number of reasons …… Enough of a share to stop asset strippers and nutters? absolutely, but majority ownership? no.

[Haymaker]

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As I've said a number of times on here, I have gone from being a supporter of overall fan ownership to being extremely dubious as to the wisdom of it for a number of reasons …… Enough of a share to stop asset strippers and nutters? absolutely, but majority ownership? no.

This.

[Keith_M]

The famous 50%+1 German model is often quoted as something to aspire to but the fans there don't actually run the clubs either.

[Col2]

And I wouldn’t expect the fans to run it but I would expect the fans interedtnof 75.1% to have a little more influence that what is being suggested in the FOH governance model.

For example if Budge’s continued obsession with Levein continues for another 5 years then you would be a tad peeved if you had donated thousands of pounds and had zero influence on that particular decision through say a single director. What Wallace is alluding to is in effect the fans don’t have a clue so we will let Budge run it the way she wants to run it. She will need to take the board along with her but in practical terms I see zero change, it’s in effect her club to run, her way and a nice wee CEO salary and bonus along with it.

[Besties Debut]

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There’s an argument that Hibs’ fans appetite for success has been satiated to a large degree by the SC win which we’ll now milk and refer to for the next 30 years as we did with 0-7

Sheep and yam followers seem to hold a much greater level of appetite for their clubs to become clubs who win silverware on an annual basis than we do.

After we won the league cup in 2007 the club self-imploded. I would like to think that 2016 was the beginning of a new dawn. A complete change of attitude from everyone associated with Hibs. The fans have always got to demand more and keep the board on their toes. If not we will just go back to what we were like before.

[superfurryhibby]

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While on one level it’s commendable that Hearts fans have contributed so much, it’s difficult to see what benefit they have got or will get from this.

I read somewhere people paying £100/£200 per month since 2014 which is astonishing. One guy admired it meant sacrifices at home but was proud to contribute. So what have they achieved:-

- Raised £8m with majority going to club in running costs
- Pay back Budge and essentially fund her disasterous main stand cost over run bu c80%
- zero football success and finished behind Hibs last season who have reached two major finals and won one of them in that time
- hemorrhaged cash on major squad overhauls, wasting £££s on dud players.
- now admission that Budge will comtnue to run the club, her way, all the decisions made by her so little change.
- Levein will continue at the club in one capacity or another given the special relationship they have.
- maybe a shiny share certificate is issued so at least that is something.

They should be well ahead on and off the park but in reality stumble from one transition to another. If I was involved in running FOH and had overseen raising of £8m (almost 4 times Budge investment) I would be demanding a far more powerful influence on the board. That guy Wallace is a patsy.

Totally agree with this. Whilst you have to grudgingly admire the stubborness of the Jambo comittment to giving Budge their cash in order to fritter it away of her vanity project, you have to ask questions of their mentality when you see that their club is still so open to the fickle nature of individual ownership.

We at least have a very significant stake in our club, the percentage of ownership between HSL and small shareholders must be well over 30%?

People keep mentioning fans running the club.... a bit puzzling. Surely every club which is fan owned elect a hierarchy who run as a board of directors. No one is can seriously imagine an amateur commitee?

[Speedway]

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After we won the league cup in 2007 the club self-imploded. I would like to think that 2016 was the beginning of a new dawn. A complete change of attitude from everyone associated with Hibs. The fans have always got to demand more and keep the board on their toes. If not we will just go back to what we were like before.

While I agree with that, the numbers associated with size of fan contributions undermine our view.

On the face of it, yams and sheep are much hungrier for success than ya just now.

[Beefster]

Neither comparison with Hearts or Aberdeen is valid IMHO.

Hearts started in a completely different situation. If we were in that situation, you can be sure many more fans would donate. Once folk start donating then inertia dictates that a large number will continue to donate, even when out of the hole. We don’t have the same crisis to get folk over that hurdle of starting donations.

Aberdeen are offering a membership scheme that provides direct benefits to individuals, not fan ownership. If Hibs want to do the same thing, they should.

Either way, HSL should stick to positive messages, not trying to scare supporters into donating.

[OfficialHSL]

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Neither comparison with Hearts or Aberdeen is valid IMHO.

Hearts started in a completely different situation. If we were in that situation, you can be sure many more fans would donate. Once folk start donating then inertia dictates that a large number will continue to donate, even when out of the hole. We don’t have the same crisis to get folk over that hurdle of starting donations.

Aberdeen are offering a membership scheme that provides direct benefits to individuals, not fan ownership. If Hibs want to do the same thing, they should.

Either way, HSL should stick to positive messages, not trying to scare supporters into donating.

Beefster
We do try to stick to positive messages such as pointing out that our latest donation to the Club now takes our stake to 18.16%. We are now only 7% short of our first target of 25.1% so well done and thank you to all our contributors.
We receive conflicting feedback from supporters Some want us to talk about share ownership while many others don’t. Some supporters think we should talk “straight” and let our fellow supporters know how we are performing against Hearts and Aberdeen but some don’t. What we don’t want to do is ever scare or shame. Hopefully you can see why it is always a difficult path to navigate.
You are correct to point out the differences between the various schemes and we can honestly say that we believe that our scheme is by far the best. We also believe there is little point in looking back. We want to help Paul as much as we can and try to ensure that he can have as much funds at his disposal as our nearest rivals so please, pass on the word and encourage as many supporters do join HSL, if they have the spare cash to do so. As little as £10 pm can make a huge difference.
www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk

HSL

[Speedway]

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Neither comparison with Hearts or Aberdeen is valid IMHO.

Hearts started in a completely different situation. If we were in that situation, you can be sure many more fans would donate. Once folk start donating then inertia dictates that a large number will continue to donate, even when out of the hole. We don’t have the same crisis to get folk over that hurdle of starting donations.

Aberdeen are offering a membership scheme that provides direct benefits to individuals, not fan ownership. If Hibs want to do the same thing, they should.

Either way, HSL should stick to positive messages, not trying to scare supporters into donating.

ALL comparisons against our two nearest competitors are valid given that they are our two nearest competitors.

[hibbysam]

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ALL comparisons against our two nearest competitors are valid given that they are our two nearest competitors.

Correct. And regardless how they started, we now need to realise that we will be literally miles behind them budget wise if we continue to say ‘ach but they nearly went bust so had to dig deep’.

If you can’t donate then it’s not aimed at you. If you can donate and choose not to then don’t grumble when we miss out on targets to Aberdeen and hearts and fight for 5th place year on year.

[Col2]

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Correct. And regardless how they started, we now need to realise that we will be literally miles behind them budget wise if we continue to say ‘ach but they nearly went bust so had to dig deep’.

If you can’t donate then it’s not aimed at you. If you can donate and choose not to then don’t grumble when we miss out on targets to Aberdeen and hearts and fight for 5th place year on year.

Except we are not miles behind them. We have won more trophies than them both, we are 2 points behind Hearts and 7 behind Aberdeen and have a larger average home attendance than both, not to mention a finished larger stadium.

[cocteautwin]

Did anyone read the article? Don't fancy subscribing to The Times.

[green day]

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Correct. And regardless how they started, we now need to realise that we will be literally miles behind them budget wise if we continue to say ‘ach but they nearly went bust so had to dig deep’.

If you can’t donate then it’s not aimed at you. If you can donate and choose not to then don’t grumble when we miss out on targets to Aberdeen and hearts and fight for 5th place year on year.

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Except we are not miles behind them. We have won more trophies than them both, we are 2 points behind Hearts and 7 behind Aberdeen and have a larger average home attendance than both, not to mention a finished larger stadium.

To be fair, he did specify "budgetwise" and he is right.

Hearts wont always be paying back Budge, and Aberdeen wont always be paying for the stadium - while not an exact science, money spent on wages in football generally equates to league position.

If their levels of cash injections carry on, you will see Celtc, Sevco, Hearts, Sheep dominate the top 4 and European qualification for years to come.

[OfficialHSL]

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To be fair, he did specify "budgetwise" and he is right.

Hearts wont always be paying back Budge, and Aberdeen wont always be paying for the stadium - while not an exact science, money spent on wages in football generally equates to league position.

If their levels of cash injections carry on, you will see Celtc, Sevco, Hearts, Sheep dominate the top 4 and European qualification for years to come.

Greenday

Thank you for your comments, this is exactly the point we are making.

We are not trying to scare nor are we trying to shame.

In about 11 months time the £1.4m pa will no longer be handed to Ann Budge it will be available to spend on players should they wish. Please note the AberDNA money is not going to the Stadium it is being directed towards the manager ( ironically in response the the HSL initiative
).


Please shout from the rooftops and tell as many of your fellow supporters as possible. This is what is in front of us. Let's try and give Paul and Robbie the best possible chance we can. We don't want to see your final comment coming true, and we know you don't want that either.


HSL

[The 90+2]

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ALL comparisons against our two nearest competitors are valid given that they are our two nearest competitors.

Exactly. There’s always some sort of excuse while other clubs move ahead of the times.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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Greenday

Thank you for your comments, this is exactly the point we are making.

We are not trying to scare nor are we trying to shame.

In about 11 months time the £1.4m pa will no longer be handed to Ann Budge it will be available to spend on players should they wish. Please not the AberDNA is not going to the Stadium it is being directed towards the manager ( ironically in response the the HSL initiative
).


Please shout from the rooftops and tell as many of your fellow supporters as possible. This is what is in front of us. Let's try and give Paul and Robbie the best possible chance we can. We don't want to see your final comment coming true, and we know you don't want that either.


HSL

And yet after years of this discussion and numerous threads on the subject all of which contain far from unreasonable warnings that unless we step up our game we will be left trailing by our direct competitors …. IE Aberdeen 6000 contributors and Hearts 8000 contributors …. there is STILL no sticky at the top of this forum advertising HSL and giving links to its website.

HSL has just over 2000 members, this forum has over 2000 members ….. It probably has more viewers than all other Hibs related social media combined, including the club's official site … Its incredibly frustrating then that HSL seem unable to persuade the sites administrators to support them, unlike FOH which has had a sticky on Jambos Kickback for years.

Is it any surprise HSL is being left behind, even by AberDNA which is years younger, when even the clubs biggest supporters forum cant be bothered to get behind it.

[matty_f]

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And yet after years of this discussion and numerous threads on the subject all of which contain far from unreasonable warnings that unless we step up our game we will be left trailing by our direct competitors …. IE Aberdeen 6000 contributors and Hearts 8000 contributors …. there is STILL no sticky at the top of this forum advertising HSL and giving links to its website.

HSL has just over 2000 members, this forum has over 2000 members ….. It probably has more viewers than all other Hibs related social media combined, including the club's official site … Its incredibly frustrating then that HSL seem unable to persuade the sites administrators to support them, unlike FOH which has had a sticky on Jambos Kickback for years.

Is it any surprise HSL is being left behind, even by AberDNA which is years younger, when even the clubs biggest supporters forum cant be bothered to get behind it.

FWIW, stickied threads get very little traction.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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FWIW, stickied threads get very little traction.

Maybe they don't matty ….. but that's guaranteed for the ones that don't exist

[Beefster]

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ALL comparisons against our two nearest competitors are valid given that they are our two nearest competitors.

Fair enough.

Both of our nearest competitors have directors or mystery benefactors donating huge sums. Maybe our club needs to get its finger out?

Both of our nearest competitors charge pensioners more for their season tickets. Maybe we need to charge pensioners more so we don't get left behind?

Let's put up cups of tea and bovrils too so we can squeeze everyone for an extra 20-30p per match. I'm sure there is a lot more areas where we could bring in more cash (I'd be up for charging folk £5 to snort a line off a shunky at halftime - they'd need to bring their own though).

FWIW, I'm not arguing against HSL. Things just aren't as black and white as is being painted.

[007]

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And yet after years of this discussion and numerous threads on the subject all of which contain far from unreasonable warnings that unless we step up our game we will be left trailing by our direct competitors …. IE Aberdeen 6000 contributors and Hearts 8000 contributors …. there is STILL no sticky at the top of this forum advertising HSL and giving links to its website.

HSL has just over 2000 members, this forum has over 2000 members ….. It probably has more viewers than all other Hibs related social media combined, including the club's official site … Its incredibly frustrating then that HSL seem unable to persuade the sites administrators to support them, unlike FOH which has had a sticky on Jambos Kickback for years.

Is it any surprise HSL is being left behind, even by AberDNA which is years younger, when even the clubs biggest supporters forum cant be bothered to get behind it.

The AberDNA scheme looks quite good though has anyone seen any figures on how much additional funds go directly to Derek McInnes' team budget as a result? If it just quoted as £72k per month (i.e. 6000 x £12 for standard membership) then that's not taking into account the reduction in the club's income elsewhere due to all the discounts the members receive. That said, any additional funds going to the playing squad is a good thing and I wouldn't be against Hibs trying a similar scheme.

[jacomo]

After the absolute mess she made of their new stand, you’ve got to question Budge’s ability to run a football club, don’t you?

I think they are going to regret the decisions she has made for a very long time to come. Just wait until the other three bus shelters need replaced.

[greenlex]

She’s right.
The scene in Braveheart where Mel Gibson says you can’t agree on the colour of ***** springs to mind.

[Famous Fiver]

So if this thread is correct the Jambo hordes are well on the way to repaying Budgie her original investment?

My impression was that this has kept being put off to divert the money to the pitch, redevelopment, new stand, January signing splurges etc etc. and none of the original investment has been paid off. Foundation of Hearts still owe her the same as on day one.

Perhaps some of our better informed contributors can put me right.

[superfurryhibby]

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The AberDNA scheme looks quite good though has anyone seen any figures on how much additional funds go directly to Derek McInnes' team budget as a result? If it just quoted as £72k per month (i.e. 6000 x £12 for standard membership) then that's not taking into account the reduction in the club's income elsewhere due to all the discounts the members receive. That said, any additional funds going to the playing squad is a good thing and I wouldn't be against Hibs trying a similar scheme.

I have asked similar questions and no one seems to have the answer to that.

https://www.afc.co.uk/2018/08/02/ove...d-for-2018-19/

This suggests that it’s not as black and white as the numbers first suggest, there are 10-15% discounts on season tickets, a free replica top, discount on their tv package, hospitality and so on. Nor are there fans buying into supporting a fans stakeholder organisation from the money donated.

https://www.afc.co.uk/aberdna/

[green day]

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So if this thread is correct the Jambo hordes are well on the way to repaying Budgie her original investment?

My impression was that this has kept being put off to divert the money to the pitch, redevelopment, new stand, January signing splurges etc etc. and none of the original investment has been paid off. Foundation of Hearts still owe her the same as on day one.

Perhaps some of our better informed contributors can put me right.

Read post #46 above