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Thread: Steve Clarke

  1. #121
    @hibs.net private member Sylar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Correctly applied, the Old Firm would have a choice under strict liability: behave in a civilised manner or be decimated.

    League fixtures - one point deduction for each sectarian/racist/homophobic chant cited.
    Cup fixtures - tie forfeited

    Let's see how the bigots with big mooths handle that.
    That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

    The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

    It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

    Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...


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  3. #122
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

    The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

    It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

    Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...
    Of course the issue is wider than football, but football must play its role in tackling the problem. SFA/SFL are only responsible for the game, but they are complicit in ignoring the problem. The football authorities could, if they wished, do far more in their area of responsibility.
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  4. #123
    Left by mutual consent! Peevemor's Avatar
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    In France, closed doors matches (along with fines) are imposed when spectators are out of order. A couple of weeks ago, Marseille had to play Bordeaux behind closed doors after someone chucked a flare on the pitch at a previous match.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_SeE4lmcd0

    Also Lille v Amiens at the end of last season.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_-jbp6VE5E

    In October of last year, the French League closed one of Montpelier's end stands for 3 matches (1 suspended) as a punishment for supporter misbehaviour.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsnWD-K-O_g

    I think similar sanctions would do the trick in Scotland.

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

    The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

    It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

    Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...
    Actually I disagree strongly with this notion that "It's NOT football's problem.Wider issue for society"etc.
    It bloomin' well IS!
    It's the only environment your hear this stuff in.
    It's the festering bile you get from mindless bigots who go to football games with their "folk songs"(copyright Donald Finlay QC) UVF and IRA flags that fuel the whole thing IMO.
    Nowhere else in society does this exist.
    There may be differences in the dwindling numbers attending Church on Sundays and certain bigots will go on about schools but that is rally not an issue.Both State and Catholic schools give a balanced broadly Christian education to children and do not indoctrinate them in bigotry.
    Football nurtures maintains and encourages this.The Old Firm and the SFA condone it.Money and vested interests don't want any change.

    PS Never a sending off and clear penalty!
    refs are a different issue (aren't they?!)
    Last edited by hughio; 21-02-2019 at 02:06 PM.

  6. #125
    @hibs.net private member Sylar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hughio View Post
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    Actually I disagree strongly with this notion that "It's NOT football's problem.Wider issue for society"etc.
    It bloomin' well IS!
    It's the only environment your hear this stuff in.
    It's the festering bile you get from mindless bigots who go to football games with their "folk songs"(copyright Donald Finlay QC) UVF and IRA flags that fuel the whole thing IMO.
    Nowhere else in society does this exist.
    There may be differences in the dwindling numbers attending Church on Sundays and certain bigots will go on about schools but that is rally not an issue.Both State and Catholic schools give a balanced broadly Christian education to children and do not indoctrinate them in bigotry.
    Football nurtures maintains and encourages this.The Old Firm and the SFA condone it.Money and vested interests don't want any change.

    PS Never a sending off and clear penalty!
    refs are a different issue (aren't they?!)
    You're having a laugh, aren't you?

    Have you visited any town in West Central Scotland recently? This stuff is still there at the surface, even in professional walks of life. Folk might wrap a flag or colour around it for posterity's sake, but sectarianism and faux-political assocations are rife in certain communities. There are platforms where it's most openly "performed", and many of these performances are often associated with football, but the continued popularity of Orange and Republican walks that bring Glasgow (and satellite towns) to a halt through the summer suggest this extends well beyond the locales of Parkhead and Ibrox.

    Schools ARE a problem - not in the sense that faith schools foster this type of bigotry or vice versa for State schools etc, but find me a playground or classroom anywhere in the Central Belt where kids aren't subject to abuse that has a religious tint. Christ, I'm still asked what school I went to as a kid as a proxy for working out if I'm a Tim or a Hun. Never mind that I finished school 15 years ago and have spent the remainder of that time working my way through 3 universities and now work in the HE sector - my school is still a consideration.

    The legacy of sectarianism is engrained in regions of Scottish culture - why else do you think we get random Aberdeen, Kilmarnock or Motherwell fans calling us Fenian *******s, or Rangers/Hearts Orange *******s? This **** goes beyond footballing allegiance, but I DO agree with you that the Scottish football authorities and clubs have a vested interest - Rangers and Celtc built their footballing empires on this ideology and have no interest in attacking their base.

  7. #126
    Coaching Staff Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Don’t worry everyone, the SFA are going to sort it all out.
    https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/sc...uct/?rid=13929



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  8. #127
    @hibs.net private member lapsedhibee's Avatar
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    The Rangers have made a statement saying unacceptable behaviour will not be tolerated at Ibrox.

    Thank goodness they're taking a firm line.

  9. #128
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    The Rangers have made a statement saying unacceptable behaviour will not be tolerated at Ibrox.

    Thank goodness they're taking a firm line.
    Taking banality to new heights. So, we can assume they will be handing out thousands of banning orders?
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  10. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    You're having a laugh, aren't you?

    Have you visited any town in West Central Scotland recently? This stuff is still there at the surface, even in professional walks of life. Folk might wrap a flag or colour around it for posterity's sake, but sectarianism and faux-political assocations are rife in certain communities. There are platforms where it's most openly "performed", and many of these performances are often associated with football, but the continued popularity of Orange and Republican walks that bring Glasgow (and satellite towns) to a halt through the summer suggest this extends well beyond the locales of Parkhead and Ibrox.

    Schools ARE a problem - not in the sense that faith schools foster this type of bigotry or vice versa for State schools etc, but find me a playground or classroom anywhere in the Central Belt where kids aren't subject to abuse that has a religious tint. Christ, I'm still asked what school I went to as a kid as a proxy for working out if I'm a Tim or a Hun. Never mind that I finished school 15 years ago and have spent the remainder of that time working my way through 3 universities and now work in the HE sector - my school is still a consideration.

    The legacy of sectarianism is engrained in regions of Scottish culture - why else do you think we get random Aberdeen, Kilmarnock or Motherwell fans calling us Fenian *******s, or Rangers/Hearts Orange *******s? This **** goes beyond footballing allegiance, but I DO agree with you that the Scottish football authorities and clubs have a vested interest - Rangers and Celtc built their footballing empires on this ideology and have no interest in attacking their base.
    Its not funny and I wasn't joking.
    What came first though; the chicken or the egg?

    Undoubtably there's been an historic schism but
    I am saying "the fitba" fosters and incubates the majority the problem.It is the vehicle for its continuation.
    Yes, I've seen west central Scotland the marches etc.Ive seen the red white and blue fences in the schemes.Quite pathetic really.I cannot say Ive seen much evidence of it in my professional life though.that would be scorned by most intelligent folk.
    The bigger evil and by far the most influential factor in the continuation of this mindset is The Ugly Sisters.
    In my lifetime so many progressive changes have occurred for women in particular;gay rights; anti fascism;racism etc .Yet this particular brand of anti-deluvian behaviour is tolerated only here in Scotland and is fostered by the collusion between the big two and their cohorts in the SFA.
    Last edited by hughio; 21-02-2019 at 02:55 PM.

  11. #130
    Coaching Staff HoboHarry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Don’t worry everyone, the SFA are going to sort it all out.
    https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/news/sc...uct/?rid=13929



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    Meaningless guff and nothing but nothing will come of it....

  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by HoboHarry View Post
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    Meaningless guff and nothing but nothing will come of it....
    I wonder how many similar statements they have released over the years while taking absolutely no action. It’s another free pass for the bigots.


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    Quote Originally Posted by HoboHarry View Post
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    Meaningless guff and nothing but nothing will come of it....
    Aye, tho even if strict liability were introduced the SFA would fine (say) Dumbarton £10,000 and shut one stand at Alloa for 2 matches. If the clubs don't like what the OF fans sing at their grounds then don't sell them any tickets. Whilst Celtic fans sing pro-IRA guff the pure racist/sectarian filth from the stand at Ibrox beggers belief. I wrote to the SFA about the treatment of Alan Stubbs and the letter was ignored. They replied to my follow up letter saying "my complaint was being looked into". Heard nothing since.

  14. #133
    @hibs.net private member lapsedhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southsider View Post
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    Aye, tho even if strict liability were introduced the SFA would fine (say) Dumbarton £10,000 and shut one stand at Alloa for 2 matches. If the clubs don't like what the OF fans sing at their grounds then don't sell them any tickets. Whilst Celtic fans sing pro-IRA guff the pure racist/sectarian filth from the stand at Ibrox beggers belief. I wrote to the SFA about the treatment of Alan Stubbs and the letter was ignored. They replied to my follow up letter saying "my complaint was being looked into". Heard nothing since.
    Brought it on himself, played for Celtc.

  15. #134
    Professional thread starter Diclonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southsider View Post
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    Aye, tho even if strict liability were introduced the SFA would fine (say) Dumbarton £10,000 and shut one stand at Alloa for 2 matches. If the clubs don't like what the OF fans sing at their grounds then don't sell them any tickets. Whilst Celtic fans sing pro-IRA guff the pure racist/sectarian filth from the stand at Ibrox beggers belief. I wrote to the SFA about the treatment of Alan Stubbs and the letter was ignored. They replied to my follow up letter saying "my complaint was being looked into". Heard nothing since.
    Can we actually ban away fans from attending ER if there is a valid reason for it, or would we get done for it?

  16. #135
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75 View Post
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    Complicit? Yes. Equally complicit? No chance, in my opinion.

    They are part of the problem, you're right about that. But at the moment, their level of sectarianism is about on par with Hearts'. They've (recently) ramped up the 'orange' this and 'orange' that. Before that, however, Celtic almost never sang anything that was openly sectarian.

    People conflate two separate things here, Celtic sing about proscribed terrorist groups. Are they complete tools for doing so? Yes, of course. Are they being sectarian by doing so? No. Some of the most influential members in Irish nationalist history were protestants (Parnell and Childers, for example). And while there were sectarian undertones to some of the Troubles, it was not the primary factor. Well, at least until the UVF got involved and started deciding that catholic = fenian = IRA terrorist.

    Rangers used to actually have the high ground in terms of not singing about proscribed terrorist groups, but they have brought some of the older songs back, and now regularly sing about them coming down the road with the UVF and about the UDR Four. So they've completely forfeited whatever sense of superiority they had in that regard.

    Here is the fundamental difference, Rangers' songbook is littered with sectarianism:
    - "up to our knees in fenian blood"
    - "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
    - "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
    - "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
    - "**** the Pope and the IRA"
    - "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

    It is wholly disingenuous to pretend that Celtic's songbook is remotely as bad in that regard. They (occasionally) sing song number three about Warburton/Levein/Gerrard, but here's where the distinction lies. Gerrard isn't "Orange". Gerrard is from a Catholic background. With Rangers, they know and care about which of their opposing managers are "fenians". Derek McInnes and Craig Levein are never told to cheer up, for example. It is reserved for known Catholics - which for the uneducated Ibrox masses usually means "they played for Celtic".

    I came to the conclusion that the religious divide in Scotland does not mean the same thing to Celtic fans as it does to Rangers. The dynamic of power between Protestants and Catholics in this country means that many Rangers fans see Celtic (and Hibs') existence as a personal affront to their way of life and their general dominance. Scottish Catholics were, for many decades, subjugated by many and treated as second class citizens. It is, to an extent, the same argument about whether black people can be racist towards white people. You would have to first remove the context of centuries of slavery and hegemony before you could even begin to answer it.

    I wouldn't have had any objection to Clarke calling out the Celtic fans for their own sectarianism on Sunday, by the way. They need to curb theirs too, but it is in no way comparable to Rangers'. And until the authorities realise that there is one primary offending party, they will forever be trying to appease both sides. They need to grow some balls and start clamping down on the root cause of this, and that is the superiority culture attached with both Rangers in a socio-political/religious sense and, maybe above all, the Orange Order.
    Rangers fans celebrate their sectarianism more openly and seem to revel in it’s notoriety. Celtic fans are more cute than their blue equivalents but it’s by no means a one sided sectarian rivalry.

    It’s too simplistic to say Rangers fans sing songs about fennian this and fenian that while Celtic fans songs technically aren’t sectarian. For both supports the root cause for what they sing is sectarianism. Are we to believe that when Celtic fans sing about the Queen etc it is merely an anti royal sentiment? Let’s be honest, the Queen equates to Protestantism in a lot of Celtic fans eyes. That’s just an example of the kind of point I’m trying to make.

  17. #136
    Coaching Staff The Green Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Great stuff Steve Clarke.

    On the game itself, I just watched the incidents and even for Scotland that's just ridiculous. It's like Muir thinks he can cheat with total impunity. Clear as day penalty for Killie not given. Then Killie keeper sent off for literally nothing. I used to watch a lot of serie a when calciopolli was going on and even Juve would blush at some of these decisions. There are some dodgy ****ers in charge.
    Agree. I thought SC was spot on. We must have the deafest officials, media and beaks in the world if (as they claim) they can’t hear tens of thousands of those cretins singing their pish game after game, week in week out, year after year. As for the ref....as you said, even for Scotland, that was embarrassing. It really makes you wonder about what goes on.

  18. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75 View Post
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    Complicit? Yes. Equally complicit? No chance, in my opinion.

    They are part of the problem, you're right about that. But at the moment, their level of sectarianism is about on par with Hearts'. They've (recently) ramped up the 'orange' this and 'orange' that. Before that, however, Celtic almost never sang anything that was openly sectarian.

    People conflate two separate things here, Celtic sing about proscribed terrorist groups. Are they complete tools for doing so? Yes, of course. Are they being sectarian by doing so? No. Some of the most influential members in Irish nationalist history were protestants (Parnell and Childers, for example). And while there were sectarian undertones to some of the Troubles, it was not the primary factor. Well, at least until the UVF got involved and started deciding that catholic = fenian = IRA terrorist.

    Rangers used to actually have the high ground in terms of not singing about proscribed terrorist groups, but they have brought some of the older songs back, and now regularly sing about them coming down the road with the UVF and about the UDR Four. So they've completely forfeited whatever sense of superiority they had in that regard.

    Here is the fundamental difference, Rangers' songbook is littered with sectarianism:
    - "up to our knees in fenian blood"
    - "we hate Celtic, fenian *******s"
    - "cheer up Alan Stubbs/Neil Lennon, oh what can it be, to a sad fenian *******"
    - "Dundee, Hamilton, **** the Pope and the Vatican"
    - "**** the Pope and the IRA"
    - "we hate Catholics, everybody hates, Roman Catholics."

    It is wholly disingenuous to pretend that Celtic's songbook is remotely as bad in that regard. They (occasionally) sing song number three about Warburton/Levein/Gerrard, but here's where the distinction lies. Gerrard isn't "Orange". Gerrard is from a Catholic background. With Rangers, they know and care about which of their opposing managers are "fenians". Derek McInnes and Craig Levein are never told to cheer up, for example. It is reserved for known Catholics - which for the uneducated Ibrox masses usually means "they played for Celtic".

    I came to the conclusion that the religious divide in Scotland does not mean the same thing to Celtic fans as it does to Rangers. The dynamic of power between Protestants and Catholics in this country means that many Rangers fans see Celtic (and Hibs') existence as a personal affront to their way of life and their general dominance. Scottish Catholics were, for many decades, subjugated by many and treated as second class citizens. It is, to an extent, the same argument about whether black people can be racist towards white people. You would have to first remove the context of centuries of slavery and hegemony before you could even begin to answer it.

    I wouldn't have had any objection to Clarke calling out the Celtic fans for their own sectarianism on Sunday, by the way. They need to curb theirs too, but it is in no way comparable to Rangers'. And until the authorities realise that there is one primary offending party, they will forever be trying to appease both sides. They need to grow some balls and start clamping down on the root cause of this, and that is the superiority culture attached with both Rangers in a socio-political/religious sense and, maybe above all, the Orange Order.
    Erudite post if I may says so.That "superiority culture"is something I have identified and I agree as a protestant its the most obviously distasteful aspect of the equation

  19. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by hughio View Post
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    Its not funny and I wasn't joking.
    What came first though; the chicken or the egg?

    Undoubtably there's been an historic schism but
    I am saying "the fitba" fosters and incubates the majority the problem.It is the vehicle for its continuation.
    Yes, I've seen west central Scotland the marches etc.Ive seen the red white and blue fences in the schemes.Quite pathetic really.I cannot say Ive seen much evidence of it in my professional life though.that would be scorned by most intelligent folk.
    The bigger evil and by far the most influential factor in the continuation of this mindset is The Ugly Sisters.
    In my lifetime so many progressive changes have occurred for women in particular;gay rights; anti fascism;racism etc .Yet this particular brand of anti-deluvian behaviour is tolerated only here in Scotland and is fostered by the collusion between the big two and their cohorts in the SFA.
    Cities like Liverpool and Manchester have very similar demographics to west central Scotland with large historic Irish Catholic and Irish Protestant immigration. They also have faith schools , Orange Lodges and Knights of St Columbus. They also had political and street violence sectarianism in the first half of the 20th century.

    Sectarianism has all but disappeared in these cities so you have to ask why it continues in west central Scotland. Like the above poster im convinced the OF perpetuate a division which in an essentially secular Scotland is as much to do with tribal labels as any actual religious beliefs. The old "joke" are you a Catholic atheist or a Protestant atheist applies to the vast bulk of present day OF fans. That means it should be easier now than at any time for the OF to take stronger action but they know its these labels that drags the knuckle draggers through the turnstiles. And of course the football authorities and bulk of the media are complicit in this state of affairs refusing to speak out or take any effective action against the OF.

  20. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by The Modfather View Post
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    Rangers fans celebrate their sectarianism more openly and seem to revel in it’s notoriety. Celtic fans are more cute than their blue equivalents but it’s by no means a one sided sectarian rivalry.

    It’s too simplistic to say Rangers fans sing songs about fennian this and fenian that while Celtic fans songs technically aren’t sectarian. For both supports the root cause for what they sing is sectarianism. Are we to believe that when Celtic fans sing about the Queen etc it is merely an anti royal sentiment? Let’s be honest, the Queen equates to Protestantism in a lot of Celtic fans eyes. That’s just an example of the kind of point I’m trying to make.
    I think the problem is that we, as fans of one of the other 40 clubs in the SPFL, aren’t in their heads, so we’ll never know exactly what they’re thinking when they sing the songs they sing.

    I am republican myself, I dislike the monarchy as a concept greatly and would be delighted if it were abolished tomorrow. There are lots of Celtic fans who will share this view. For some, you are right, it will be seeing the Queen as a figurehead of a (Protestant) establishment and therefore singing unsavoury things about her.

    But again I come back to the punching up vs punching down dynamic of Protestants and Catholics in this country that I observe as neutrally as I can, bring an atheist myself. Is singing “**** the Queen” crass, pointless and unnecessary? Yes, for sure.

    However, consider who is being ‘targeted’ in that sectarianism there. The (decorative) Head of State in one of the most powerful countries in history. When Rangers sing about fenian *******s, hating Roman Catholics and especially being up to their knees in fenian blood, they are targeting a minority in this country who suffered persecution spanning decades upon decades.

    I’m not trying to explain away Celtic’s sectarianism, it is bad and they need to be doing a lot more than they’re currently doing to stamp it out. However, the ‘two teams as bad as each other’ myth perpetuates sectarianism in Scotland, at least in my opinion. It indirectly validates Rangers’ (far worse) sectarianism, because they are told that Celtic are as bad, when they objectively just aren’t.

  21. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75 View Post
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    I think the problem is that we, as fans of one of the other 40 clubs in the SPFL, aren’t in their heads, so we’ll never know exactly what they’re thinking when they sing the songs they sing.

    I am republican myself, I dislike the monarchy as a concept greatly and would be delighted if it were abolished tomorrow. There are lots of Celtic fans who will share this view. For some, you are right, it will be seeing the Queen as a figurehead of a (Protestant) establishment and therefore singing unsavoury things about her.

    But again I come back to the punching up vs punching down dynamic of Protestants and Catholics in this country that I observe as neutrally as I can, bring an atheist myself. Is singing “**** the Queen” crass, pointless and unnecessary? Yes, for sure.

    However, consider who is being ‘targeted’ in that sectarianism there. The (decorative) Head of State in one of the most powerful countries in history. When Rangers sing about fenian *******s, hating Roman Catholics and especially being up to their knees in fenian blood, they are targeting a minority in this country who suffered persecution spanning decades upon decades.

    I’m not trying to explain away Celtic’s sectarianism, it is bad and they need to be doing a lot more than they’re currently doing to stamp it out. However, the ‘two teams as bad as each other’ myth perpetuates sectarianism in Scotland, at least in my opinion. It indirectly validates Rangers’ (far worse) sectarianism, because they are told that Celtic are as bad, when they objectively just aren’t.
    Ok that's interesting.Rangers are worse.You might be right.I'm thinking about it overnight.
    You rightly say we will never know exactly what's in their heads.
    I'd say its akin to a Punch and Judy show,mock theatre and a lot of habitual unthinking father-following.
    Must say when I first heard the Rangers en mass singing No one likes us etc ringing up between the tenements behind Easter Rd many years ago it made me nauseus.The self-congratulatory shameless ignorant bile of it.Have never felt that from the Celtc hoards.

  22. #141
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HFCEighteen75 View Post
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    I think the problem is that we, as fans of one of the other 40 clubs in the SPFL, aren’t in their heads, so we’ll never know exactly what they’re thinking when they sing the songs they sing.

    I am republican myself, I dislike the monarchy as a concept greatly and would be delighted if it were abolished tomorrow. There are lots of Celtic fans who will share this view. For some, you are right, it will be seeing the Queen as a figurehead of a (Protestant) establishment and therefore singing unsavoury things about her.

    But again I come back to the punching up vs punching down dynamic of Protestants and Catholics in this country that I observe as neutrally as I can, bring an atheist myself. Is singing “**** the Queen” crass, pointless and unnecessary? Yes, for sure.

    However, consider who is being ‘targeted’ in that sectarianism there. The (decorative) Head of State in one of the most powerful countries in history. When Rangers sing about fenian *******s, hating Roman Catholics and especially being up to their knees in fenian blood, they are targeting a minority in this country who suffered persecution spanning decades upon decades.

    I’m not trying to explain away Celtic’s sectarianism, it is bad and they need to be doing a lot more than they’re currently doing to stamp it out. However, the ‘two teams as bad as each other’ myth perpetuates sectarianism in Scotland, at least in my opinion. It indirectly validates Rangers’ (far worse) sectarianism, because they are told that Celtic are as bad, when they objectively just aren’t.
    You make a lot of good points and in a constructive manner, which is appreciated as they tend to be rare on these kind of debates. So I’m weary of appearing glib and not actually adding anything constructive to the debate. However, I do think you treat Celtic a little lightly in a lot of your points. An example being the bit in bold. We may just see things differently but sectarianism is sectarianism, it doesn’t matter what side it comes from be it the historic persecutors or persecuted. In the same way that if a black man was to subject a white man to racist abuse I wouldn’t think, yeah but black people have historically been persecuted. I’d just think the individual was a racist moron.

    IMO we can correlate the Celtic support singing about the Queen, booing remembrance silences, and singing about the IRA etc. On the face of it each can be explained away as to why they are not sectarian, but for me the root of why these non footballing songs are sung is Sectarianisim and a one upmanship in a rivalry that is fuelled by sectarianism. Remove sectarianism from the Old Firm and it’s just another Villa v Birmingham type of derby.

  23. #142
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    A curious take on it by Potter:

    Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
    "How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
    "So what's to stop that?"

  24. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    That would be putting lipstick on a pig.

    The issue of sectarianism and the behaviour of the Old Firm fans goes well beyond the 90 minutes every weekend.

    It's only by destroying sectarianism entirely from Scottish culture that any change will be enacted with effect. I can't see that in my lifetime.

    Until then, we're going to continue hearing about fenian and orange *******s, the IRA, the UVF, papists, Big Jock and his knowledge, Palestine, Israel, Bobby Sands, the Pope...
    This is totally missing the point. Football has a massive responsibility to eradicate this from match days and would be a huge step forward in the battle against sectarianism, intolerance and hatred. Celtic and Sevco are the focal point for all the hate filled bigots. Instead of these creatures having to creep out in the middle of the night to secret meetings under the cloak of darkness, Celtic and Sevco actively facilitate the gatherings in plain sight and with the blessing of the media including the BBC and Sky. History will record their years of tolerance, acceptance and encouragement of sectarianism as horrific and shameful.

  25. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by hughio View Post
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    Actually I disagree strongly with this notion that "It's NOT football's problem.Wider issue for society"etc.
    It bloomin' well IS!
    It's the only environment your hear this stuff in.
    It's the festering bile you get from mindless bigots who go to football games with their "folk songs"(copyright Donald Finlay QC) UVF and IRA flags that fuel the whole thing IMO.
    Nowhere else in society does this exist.
    There may be differences in the dwindling numbers attending Church on Sundays and certain bigots will go on about schools but that is rally not an issue.Both State and Catholic schools give a balanced broadly Christian education to children and do not indoctrinate them in bigotry.
    Football nurtures maintains and encourages this.The Old Firm and the SFA condone it.Money and vested interests don't want any change.

    PS Never a sending off and clear penalty!
    refs are a different issue (aren't they?!)
    You are so right, spot on, excellent post.

  26. #145
    @hibs.net private member blackpoolhibs's Avatar
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    Football is not responsible for all parts of society, i'ts responsible for what happens on a Saturday at grounds all over the country.

    They could stamp it out at football by deducting points and closing stadiums, its probably wont stop it in the pubs or houses, but i dont frequent those pubs and houses, and Saturday would be a much more pleasant day out without that bile.

    If we had these clowns disrupting movies in the cinema, they'd be thrown out and banned, no other entertainment puts up with this, it is a football problem and one that is easily sorted if there was a will.

    People have to want rid of this problem, but when it's ingrained into the folk who are running the show, we've no chance.

  27. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs View Post
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    Football is not responsible for all parts of society, i'ts responsible for what happens on a Saturday at grounds all over the country.

    They could stamp it out at football by deducting points and closing stadiums, its probably wont stop it in the pubs or houses, but i dont frequent those pubs and houses, and Saturday would be a much more pleasant day out without that bile.

    If we had these clowns disrupting movies in the cinema, they'd be thrown out and banned, no other entertainment puts up with this, it is a football problem and one that is easily sorted if there was a will.

    People have to want rid of this problem, but when it's ingrained into the folk who are running the show, we've no chance.
    Sadly, your last sentence sums the problem up.

  28. #147
    @hibs.net private member Leith Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    A curious take on it by Potter:

    Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
    "How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
    "So what's to stop that?"

    Craig Levein would have to come up with such a scenario now wouldnt he. Guy is a helmet ..

  29. #148
    Think it's about time for one of these wonderful articles.I remember two headlines

    "The greatest derby in the world" and

    "The Old Firm ,the envy of the football world".

  30. #149
    Coaching Staff Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    A curious take on it by Potter:

    Hearts manager Craig Levein said "every manager gets abuse" and believes the incidents at matches are part of "a society problem".
    "How we stop it I don't know," he added. "The problem with strict liability is if you want to mess around and cause trouble if you are a supporter of another club, you buy tickets for your nearest rival and shout sectarian abuse. Then you get the club fined.
    "So what's to stop that?"
    How would you manage to get 10,000 of the other teams fans to sing along with you?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  31. #150
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
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    there's obviously no laws available at the moment if the scottish government are asking the football bosses to do more

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