"Speculation"

[matty_f]

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It's been made quite clear by LD and PHB that the press were writing madey up bollox during the recruitment process.

With a severance package for Neil Lennon subject to a legally binding gagging clause why would anyone give any credence to what's scrawled in the sun?

Personally I think he may have got something but maybe not. I'm not getting my knickers in a twist either way. (I'm not suggesting you are either)

It was in an article where they'd been speaking directly to Lennon. The info about the wages being paid up wasn't quoted but it's not a huge leap to understand where they got that info from.

What's in it for the papers to make that up?

[Eyrie]

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It was in an article where they'd been speaking directly to Lennon. The info about the wages being paid up wasn't quoted but it's not a huge leap to understand where they got that info from.

What's in it for the papers to make that up?

Because their speculation that there was a pay off will satisfy the Celtc half of their target audience.

And because there is a settlement agreement which means the truth about the pay out will never be publicly known, so their speculation can't be contradicted. Not that reporting the truth is a major concern for either the Record or Sun.

[Lester B]

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Because their speculation that there was a pay off will satisfy the Celtc half of their target audience.

And because there is a settlement agreement which means the truth about the pay out will never be publicly known, so their speculation can't be contradicted. Not that reporting the truth is a major concern for either the Record or Sun.

Spot on!!

[Hibiza]

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Hen? Oh Lordy...

aye , poor.

[judas]

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Leeann Dempster quoted in BBC interview about the Neil Lennon debacle saying some of the speculation was "outrageous"
Top tips hen, don't treat your paying customers who've invested a lifetime of support, blood, sweat and many tears in supporting Hibernian FC like mugs.
My head doesn't zip up the back, and we do deserve to know why finance that could have been channeled into the team goes to a manager and assistant to keep "schtum"
Just hope there's plenty clauses in the new man's contract that don't allow us to be stiffed if it all goes Pete Tong.
Small rant, sorry. Just how I'm feeling

I have to admit, I think we are entitled to more of an explanation that we have had from Hibs.

I was not Lennons biggest fan (though I certainly wouldn’t say he was a bad Manager), but right now, who is to say that the reason for this entire debacle is not actually something outrageously reckless Leanne said or did?

In such a situation, we as customers and patrons of the club are left carrying the baby. It could be that our money and aspirations for the club are in the hands of a tyrannical bully who has lost the place.

Now - before anyone goes tonto, my judgement is that Leanne is probably the one in the right. But my point is; who knows? Perhaps the club should simply trust the supporters with the information and let them be better informed for it?

What would happen under a fan ownership scenario? (That’s an actual question btw not a rhetorical one)

[ronaldo7]

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I know what the statement said.

Let's be clear. If there has been no formal disciplinary process then by definition they cannot be found guilty of anything. That doesn't mean they, or more accurately Lennon, didn't do anything; it means that there was no disciplinary meeting to explore the incident(s) and hear evidence.

It may seem quite clear to you. It doesn't mean that's what happened. Discussions took place between both parties. It was agreed that the employment relationship had broken down and would be terminated without moving to formal disciplinary action. This is reasonably common in employment. Discussions would then take place on a Without Prejudice basis on the various variables including what statement would be made in public and the level of money which would be paid if any. Both parties are seeking to protect their position in terms of reputation and so there is a negotiated settlement. To go to a potential gross misconduct dismissal airs the dirty linen in public and would I suggest reflect more badly on Lennon than the club. This is speculation I admit; we simply don't know but given the wording of the statement it's a reasonable working assumption. Therefore in simple terms he walks without full settlement of the pay for the full duration of the contract on the grounds that the club don't move to disciplinary action. He is therefore 'not guilty' because he hasn't been held to account.

Your initial assertion was that the statement said he was 'blameless'. It doesn't say that or anything like that. At all.

Your post asserts so much, I suppose that's why it's on the speculation thread.

I also used the word blameless, as it pretty much covers all that was in the hibs statement. The definition of blameless uses words such as, innocent, irreproachable, without guilt, and so on.

We're not going to agree who was right and wrong on this subject, safe to say none of them come out smelling of roses.

[A Hi-Bee]

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I know what the statement said.

Let's be clear. If there has been no formal disciplinary process then by definition they cannot be found guilty of anything. That doesn't mean they, or more accurately Lennon, didn't do anything; it means that there was no disciplinary meeting to explore the incident(s) and hear evidence.

It may seem quite clear to you. It doesn't mean that's what happened. Discussions took place between both parties. It was agreed that the employment relationship had broken down and would be terminated without moving to formal disciplinary action. This is reasonably common in employment. Discussions would then take place on a Without Prejudice basis on the various variables including what statement would be made in public and the level of money which would be paid if any. Both parties are seeking to protect their position in terms of reputation and so there is a negotiated settlement. To go to a potential gross misconduct dismissal airs the dirty linen in public and would I suggest reflect more badly on Lennon than the club. This is speculation I admit; we simply don't know but given the wording of the statement it's a reasonable working assumption. Therefore in simple terms he walks without full settlement of the pay for the full duration of the contract on the grounds that the club don't move to disciplinary action. He is therefore 'not guilty' because he hasn't been held to account.

Your initial assertion was that the statement said he was 'blameless'. It doesn't say that or anything like that. At all.

Speculation and or unsubstantiated fact, innuendo call it what you like in my book is the same as a few auld wifeys hanging over the washing line chirping away about rumours and or gossip. Which can be dangerous in this day and age of so called social media/fake news. Better to just keep yer mouth shut in cases like that. Some time Hibs business is just Hibs business and nothing to do with nosey supporters with a false sense of entitlement. It’s a wee bit like whining kids on here at times. All just my own opinion of course.

[Lester B]

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Your post asserts so much, I suppose that's why it's on the speculation thread.

It's not just speculation on my part. It comes from an informed perspective. I'm a full time trade union official. I've negotiated SAs for members where they are in trouble and for members where the employer is in the wrong. I regularly do disciplinary hearings, appeal hearings including dismissals, advise on mediation, early conciliation through ACAS and Tribunals. Anything I assert comes from experience of working in this area for the last 15 years

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I also used the word blameless, as it pretty much covers all that was in the hibs statement. Words such as, innocent, irreproachable, without guilt, and so on.

Looking up synonyms for blameless does not constitute making up a case for your intial assertion that the statement says he was blameless. No formal disciplinary action was taken. It is not the same as saying as he wasn't to blame for anthing. It was a pragmatic decision to pursue Alternative Dispute Resolution by the club and it was the best option in the circumstances

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We're not going to agree who was right and wrong on this subject, safe to say none of them come out smelling of roses.

Clearly not. But again I have to stress; it's not just speculation on my part. If you work in Employment Relations you can spot an agreed statement as part of an SA when you see it. This is a textbook example of one. No one comes out of these incidents unscathed but as I've now said on a number of threads this was by far the best outcome to the situation or by far the least bad if you prefer. I cannot find a better resolution to this and would be genuinely interested if anyone can suggest something different that should have been done.

[tamig]

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Speculation and or unsubstantiated fact, innuendo call it what you like in my book is the same as a few auld wifeys hanging over the washing line chirping away about rumours and or gossip. Which can be dangerous in this day and age of so called social media/fake news. Better to just keep yer mouth shut in cases like that. Some time Hibs business is just Hibs business and nothing to do with nosey supporters with a false sense of entitlement. It’s a wee bit like whining kids on here at times. All just my own opinion of course.

Nosey supporters with a false sense of entitlement is exactly what they are. Many of them who have bemoaned the lack of communication from the club over the past few weeks have been very quiet over the past few days. Very sad behaviour.

[ancient hibee]

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I have to admit, I think we are entitled to more of an explanation that we have had from Hibs.

I was not Lennons biggest fan (though I certainly wouldn’t say he was a bad Manager), but right now, who is to say that the reason for this entire debacle is not actually something outrageously reckless Leanne said or did?

In such a situation, we as customers and patrons of the club are left carrying the baby. It could be that our money and aspirations for the club are in the hands of a tyrannical bully who has lost the place.

Now - before anyone goes tonto, my judgement is that Leanne is probably the one in the right. But my point is; who knows? Perhaps the club should simply trust the supporters with the information and let them be better informed for it?

What would happen under a fan ownership scenario? (That’s an actual question btw not a rhetorical one)

If she was to blame it would be her who would have left the club not Lennon .

[Hibbyradge]

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Lennon on BT sport in the morning with Savage and Sutton. Expect him to confirm that Hibbyradge has the detail on the split and the journalists are all making stuff up.

Presumably they ducked the question?

[Bostonhibby]

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It's not just speculation on my part. It comes from an informed perspective. I'm a full time trade union official. I've negotiated SAs for members where they are in trouble and for members where the employer is in the wrong. I regularly do disciplinary hearings, appeal hearings including dismissals, advise on mediation, early conciliation through ACAS and Tribunals. Anything I assert comes from experience of working in this area for the last 15 years

Looking up synonyms for blameless does not constitute making up a case for your intial assertion that the statement says he was blameless. No formal disciplinary action was taken. It is not the same as saying as he wasn't to blame for anthing. It was a pragmatic decision to pursue Alternative Dispute Resolution by the club and it was the best option in the circumstances

Clearly not. But again I have to stress; it's not just speculation on my part. If you work in Employment Relations you can spot an agreed statement as part of an SA when you see it. This is a textbook example of one. No one comes out of these incidents unscathed but as I've now said on a number of threads this was by far the best outcome to the situation or by far the least bad if you prefer. I cannot find a better resolution to this and would be genuinely interested if anyone can suggest something different that should have been done.

I've been on the other side of these arrangements quite a few times down the years and you are essentially right in what you say.

The specifics of why Hibs and Neil came to one probably don't matter and we're unlikely to find out any time soon but the essence of any agreement is there's usually a reason why both sides want to do it that way. Sometimes it offers the individual a quick, economic and honourable way out.This tends not to happen when there's a gross breach / breaches or there's real acrimony involved.



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[Danderhall Hibs]

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Presumably they ducked the question?

I’ve not seen it - recorded for later.

[One Day Soon]

Started out as a quite promising thread with an OP of spectacular self-immolating stupidity and has now descended back into the same single transferable debate that's been dragging .net down for weeks now.

Hope Haagen-Dazs gets off to a flier in his first game in charge today so that all the backward lookers, the undercovers and the trolls have nowt left to say.

[Bostonhibby]

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Started out as a quite promising thread with an OP of spectacular self-immolating stupidity and has now descended back into the same single transferable debate that's been dragging .net down for weeks now.

Hope Haagen-Dazs gets off to a flier in his first game in charge today so that all the backward lookers, the undercovers and the trolls have nowt left to say.

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[Hibbyradge]

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Hibs have already said he was blameless in the statement which was released.

It was a joint statement.

I'm not sure why people ignore it, but it clearly says that Lennon's suspension was only lifted after the two parties made the agreement.

The suspension would not have been lifted and the disciplinary investigation into Lennon's behaviour would have continued otherwise.

It was in Lennon's interest to make the agreement more than it was Hibs'.

[Danderhall Hibs]

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It was a joint statement.

I'm not sure why people ignore it, but it clearly says that Lennon's suspension was only lifted after the two parties made the agreement.

The suspension would not have been lifted and the disciplinary investigation into Lennon's behaviour would have continued otherwise.

It was in Lennon's interest to make the agreement more than it was Hibs'.

It was in our interest as well - we couldn’t get a new manager until we got rid.

[Lester B]

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I've been on the other side of these arrangements quite a few times down the years and you are essentially right in what you say.

The specifics of why Hibs and Neil came to one probably don't matter and we're unlikely to find out any time soon but the essence of any agreement is there's usually a reason why both sides want to do it that way. Sometimes it offers the individual a quick, economic and honourable way out.This tends not to happen when there's a gross breach / breaches or there's real acrimony involved.



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Thanks. Done SAs all over the UK but never in Lincolnshire. Otherwise we might have been doing the same one on opposite sides of the table!

[Lester B]

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It was a joint statement.

I'm not sure why people ignore it, but it clearly says that Lennon's suspension was only lifted after the two parties made the agreement.

The suspension would not have been lifted and the disciplinary investigation into Lennon's behaviour would have continued otherwise.

It was in Lennon's interest to make the agreement more than it was Hibs'.

Exactly. More succinct than what I wrote. In a nutshell there sir

[Bostonhibby]

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Thanks. Done SAs all over the UK but never in Lincolnshire. Otherwise we might have been doing the same one on opposite sides of the table!

As we're from the Hibs universe we'd not have been far apart

Lincs was a good bolt hole from all the crap further south. Never got into any disputes with anyone down here, professionally anyway

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[CLASS OF 72 -73]

We have no choice but to move on but I can't help thinking there would have been an absolute major uproar had this happened when Lennon was riding high. Fact is he was on the slide and his loose cannon temperament they found a way to get shot without jeopardising his future prospects so most of us are prepared to accept its ok the way they both went. The days of verbal abuse in the dressing room and training ground and forgotten about the next day are gone. LD is very corporate and follows those business guidelines.

[Hibbyradge]

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It was in our interest as well - we couldn’t get a new manager until we got rid.

Of course Hibs preferred to get it over with quickly, but it was the club who had the strongest hand.

It removed the need to interview players to build evidence, and it avoided any possibility of a messy tribunal which would have been even more embarrassing for the club.

But, superficially at least, it saved Lennon's reputation.

I say superficially because it reads almost like one of those carefully constructed references which looks effusive and glowing but actually ensures that the subject will never get another job.

[LeithMike]

Think it's a bit cheeky of Hibs complaining about speculation when they've not put out any information. If you are going to keep things in house then you have to accept that there will be conspiracy theories. If you dont like that then you need to put the information out to correct it. Simple choice really.

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[Lester B]

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Think it's a bit cheeky of Hibs complaining about speculation when they've not put out any information. If you are going to keep things in house then you have to accept that there will be conspiracy theories. If you dont like that then you need to put the information out to correct it. Simple choice really.

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What information should have been put out in your opinion? And what do you think the effect of this information would have been on how things panned out?

[Lester B]

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As we're from the Hibs universe we'd not have been far apart

Lincs was a good bolt hole from all the crap further south. Never got into any disputes with anyone down here, professionally anyway

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Nice one!

Clearly your last two words are key

[J-C]

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What information should have been put out in your opinion? And what do you think the effect of this information would have been on how things panned out?

Did they expect Hibs to put out a statement saying " Lennon has made a **** of himself and called Leeann a ****, therefore we've suspended him."

Lennon overstepped the mark again once to often and paid with his job, the club and Lennon want to move on quickly, so a quick resolution is to just tear up his contract and part ways, how people cannot see this is beyond me.

[green day]

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Think it's a bit cheeky of Hibs complaining about speculation when they've not put out any information. If you are going to keep things in house then you have to accept that there will be conspiracy theories. If you dont like that then you need to put the information out to correct it. Simple choice really.

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Just because the press and the twittersphere dont like a vacuum and makes up stories is not Hibs or Lennons fault - both of whom are bound by a confidentiality agreement.

I struggle to work out how some people cant see this as its quite a simple concept....................

[Northern Hibby]

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Leeann Dempster quoted in BBC interview about the Neil Lennon debacle saying some of the speculation was "outrageous"
Top tips hen, don't treat your paying customers who've invested a lifetime of support, blood, sweat and many tears in supporting Hibernian FC like mugs.
My head doesn't zip up the back, and we do deserve to know why finance that could have been channeled into the team goes to a manager and assistant to keep "schtum"
Just hope there's plenty clauses in the new man's contract that don't allow us to be stiffed if it all goes Pete Tong.
Small rant, sorry. Just how I'm feeling

Maybe he agreed to take less money if we kept "schtum" Lennon has the reputation of being a fiery hot head not Leeann, mutual means it benefited both, i have no proof but i'd say Lennon saved face and we saved money.

[judas]

[QUOTE=J-C;5711846]Did they expect Hibs to put out a statement saying " Lennon has made a **** of himself and called Leeann a ****, therefore we've suspended him."
/QUOTE]

Why not?

[NOLA]

Brian I think leeann just shut you down


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