Will us Hibs fans ever learn from the past?

[GreenArmyyy!]

DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

[Smartie]

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DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

Really good post.

The only bit I disagree with is the bit about the substitution the other night - as soon as Kamberi went off and Slivka went on we started to get a hold of midfield. I thought it was a risky move (as inevitably Lennon would get criticism for taking off a striker and putting on a midfielder when we're chasing the game) but it paid off. Kamberi and Shaw had both been brutal and our midfield weren't creating anything like enough.

The sub changed that - another tick in Lennon's plus column imo. He may make a mess of his starting lineups but he's capable of changing a match with subs and tactical tweaks.

[lyonhibs]

I don't think we should - in any way - be contemplating getting rid of Lennon but you only have to look and see how Killie are doing to see that our budget in comparison to that of almost any other non OF team is not an excuse that explains, by itself or even plays a major role in explaining, why we're 8th and haven't won in 7 games.

[Brightside]

The Slivka sub was the best thing he did.

[we are hibs]

Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

[Smartie]

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Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

How often have we got rid of a manager and ended up with someone better?

We're going through a tough patch under a very good manager. The solution to the problem isn't always to change the manager - often the opposite.

[Michael]

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Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

Track record of replacing managers.

[calumhibee1]

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Getting rid of Lennon doesn't mean we will end up with another butcher fenlon or calderwood. Why does everyone think that?

Whether you agree with getting rid of Lennon or not the arguement that we’re going to end up with someone akin to some of the worst managers in our history would suggest a major lack of faith in the board to get it right. Yet if you still want Lennon then I’m going to presume you felt they got it right there, so why are people so adamant they’d get the next one so badly wrong?

[Wilson]

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Track record of replacing managers.

To balance the argument couldn't we just discuss our track record of appointing managers under LD. Let's see. Stubbs - success. Lennon - success. I'd say that is a pretty strong argument for giving her another go if Lennon's heart isn't in it.

Also, as regards the OP. We really don't learn from the past - we continually play the wait and see approach when things clearly aren't right. Hell, Butcher wasn't sacked until AFTER we were relegated - for crying out loud! Lennon deserves a bit longer I'll grant you - but not too much

[MWHIBBIES]

The reason Lennon needs funds to turn us round is because the funds he was given I'm the summer got us into this mess.

What if he gets it wrong again?

[Pretty Boy]

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How often have we got rid of a manager and ended up with someone better?

We're going through a tough patch under a very good manager. The solution to the problem isn't always to change the manager - often the opposite.

Fenlon replacing Calderwood
Stubbs replacing Butcher
Lennon replacing Stubbs

75% of our last 4 managerial changes have been, to varying degrees, a success and all have been an improvement on their immediate predecessor. That's not an endorsement of sacking Lennon btw.

[My_Wife_Camille]

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Fenlon replacing Calderwood
Stubbs replacing Butcher
Lennon replacing Stubbs

75% of our last 4 managerial changes have been, to varying degrees, a success and all have been an improvement on their immediate predecessor. That's not an endorsement of sacking Lennon btw.

McLeish replacing Duffy
Williamson replacing Sauzee
Mowbray replacing Williamson
Yogi replacing Mixu

[Gloucester Hibs]

To counter it; when have we ever dispensed of a manager too early? You could make an argument for Mixu at a push, Sauzee perhaps? If anything we have held onto our dud managers for too long in the past - our inaction has IMO damaged us.

[B.H.F.C]

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DISCUSSION-

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

I keep reading about January and how we can fix it all then. We made a mess of it in the summer so there are no guarantees.

If Lennon really is a good manager he needs to get more out of the players he currently has. Parker’s interview the other night will hardly encourage that though. Singling players out, talking about needing players in January.

The whole thing is a mess at the moment and I sincerely hope they aren’t thinking they can wave a magic wand in January to fix it. There are six games before that and if we don’t pick up some wins we’ll find ourselves in a pretty dangerous position.

[MWHIBBIES]

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To counter it; when have we ever dispensed of a manager too early? You could make an argument for Mixu at a push, Sauzee perhaps? If anything we have held onto our dud managers for too long in the past - our inaction has IMO damaged us.

Fenlon. If he finishes his contract we don't get relegated.

[calumhibee1]

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To counter it; when have we ever dispensed of a manager too early? You could make an argument for Mixu at a push, Sauzee perhaps? If anything we have held onto our dud managers for too long in the past - our inaction has IMO damaged us.

Good point. In my 20 or so years of watching Hibs I can’t think of a manager we’ve sacked that you’d look back at and think “I’d have given him longer.”

Fenlon would be the closest to that but that’s more because of who came after him rather than because he was deserving of it.

[Onceinawhile]

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Fenlon. If he finishes his contract we don't get relegated.

Did Fenlon not resign?

I have it in the back of my mind he did.

[davhibby]

Any managerial appointment before LD has been at the club is an irrelevance when using it as a reason not to get rid of Lennon.

[calumhibee1]

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Did Fenlon not resign?

I have it in the back of my mind he did.

Would seem he did. I thought he was sacked but Wikipedia says he resigned 1st November 2013.

[Hi Heid Yin]

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DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

[neil7908]

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The Slivka sub was the best thing he did.

I know he's a polarising player but he needs to start on Saturday. He's no SJM but no one else in our midfield has any drive about them.

As soon as he came on we started playing some of football and it all camera down the right where he was playing.

[Sammy7nil]

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I don't think we should - in any way - be contemplating getting rid of Lennon but you only have to look and see how Killie are doing to see that our budget in comparison to that of almost any other non OF team is not an excuse that explains, by itself or even plays a major role in explaining, why we're 8th and haven't won in 7 games.

When will Hibs learn from history? I can't recall back to back good seasons in the top league since Eddie Turnbulls time and even then it was short lived and ended in relegation.

I do not think it is unreasonable for a club our size to finish top 4 or better in back to back seasons. When we are in a good postion we always fail to invest on players. We have now had 15 years in off the park investment Hibs should be investing every available penny on players or we will continue to be a "Big" club with great facilities who are often out performed by St Jonstone, Motherwell and Aberdeen.

I agree changing the manager won't help.

[Dashing Bob S]

The notion of ‘learning from the past’ in an immediate game in an experiential performance and result based undertaking is of limited application.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Did Fenlon not resign?

I have it in the back of my mind he did.

Hounded out/given some money to resign I think.

[Pretty Boy]

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When will Hibs learn from history? I can't recall back to back good sesons in the top league since Eddie Turnbulls time and even then it was short lived and ended in relegation.

I do not think it is unreasonable for a club our size to finish top 4 or better in back to back seasons. When we are in a good postion we always fail to invest on players. We have now had 15 years in off the park investment Hibs should be investing every available penny on players or we will continue to be a "Big" club with great facilities who are often out performed by St Jonstone, Motherwell and Aberdeen.

I agree changing the manager won't help.

Mowbray finished 3rd then 4th (overtaken by the early Romanov era financially doped Hearts). The following season Collins took over and we won the League Cup and finished 6th I think. I'd argue that was 3 good season back to back albeit the last one could have been better but for the implosion in March.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final.

This...um...this isn't the achievement you think it is?

Getting us to a semi final (that he set us up for terribly and had to change inside half an hour when we went 2-0 down) absolutely doesn't compare to Stubbs leading us to two finals in one season. Again, I'll repeat this in case people don't understand, no other Hibs manager in history has ever taken us to the Scottish and League Cup final in the same season.

The other 'achievement' here was getting us out of the easiest of the three Championships that we were in. Had we not beaten that shambles of a Dundee United team to the title, Lennon would've been chased out of town and rightly so. For the record, we only amassed a point more than Stubbs did in both his seasons, and there were times when it genuinely looked like we might not win the league. It wasn't this procession some revisionists have decided it was.

[B.H.F.C]

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This...um...this isn't the achievement you think it is?

Getting us to a semi final (that he set us up for terribly and had to change inside half an hour when we went 2-0 down) absolutely doesn't compare to Stubbs leading us to two finals in one season. Again, I'll repeat this in case people don't understand, no other Hibs manager in history has ever taken us to the Scottish and League Cup final in the same season.

The other 'achievement' here was getting us out of the easiest of the three Championships that we were in. Had we not beaten that shambles of a Dundee United team to the title, Lennon would've been chased out of town and rightly so. For the record, we only amassed a point more than Stubbs did in both his seasons, and there were times when it genuinely looked like we might not win the league. It wasn't this procession some revisionists have decided it was.

What about achieving our record points total in the top flight last season?

I’m not in the ‘Lennon is great’ camp but at least try and be balanced about things.

[HibeeHibernian4]

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What about achieving our record points total in the top flight last season?

I’m not in the ‘Lennon is great’ camp but at least try and be balanced about things.

A great achievement and one he should be applauded for. I was responding specifically to the poster's attempt to big up Lennon's first year as Hibs manager, where he did the bare minimum expected and nothing more.

[blackpoolhibs]

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A great achievement and one he should be applauded for. I was responding specifically to the poster's attempt to big up Lennon's first year as Hibs manager, where he did the bare minimum expected and nothing more.

He achieved his aim, our aim.

[SquashedFrogg]

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DISCUSSION-

I actually can’t believe the amount of people actually contemplating getting rid of Lennon to be honest.

Have we not learned our lesson about chopping and changing managers looking for that instant success?!

It started with Mixu, we were unhappy with the mediocrity, then on to Hughes who got us in to 4th place, Europe and was sacked 7 games in to the next season, then on to Colin (bag of sweeties) Calderwood, then on to Fenlon who got us to back to back Scottish cup finals, granted we got pumped. Last but not least we are faced with the mother of them all in the form of Terry Butcher and Maurice Malpas as we cliff dropped to relegation.

No disrespect to Sir Alan Stubbs but Lennon achieved what he couldn’t and got us out of the Championship at the first time of asking whilst taking us to another Scottish cup semi final. He then lead us to 4th place in the SPFL table in one of the most competitive leagues in years, not only that but the style of football was pretty spectacular to watch at times. He got us further than any manager has done in the last 30 years in Europe this season.

At this point the heart of the squad was ripped out from under him, losing Allan, McGeouch, McGinn and Barker, 4 of out 5 from arguably the best midfield in the country. Now let’s be honest, Hibs may have spent a bit of money this summer but it’s a drop in the ocean compared to the huge revenue increases since winning the Scottish cup, average attendance doubling, 2 cup finals in the cup winning season, merchandise sales following the SC win, 4th place last season, 3 European rounds then the sale of both McGinn and Murray.

The bad luck doesn’t stop there for Lennon, we’ve had Sir David Gray who has been brilliant when he’s played this season but it’s been a case of play 1 game and out for 3 or 4, out number 1 keeper has been injured for the first half of the season, we’ve had defensive injuries every single week, MacLaren can’t get fit either and I’ve got zero explanation for the form of Kamberi.

There’s not a manager in the world that could emulate last seasons success with the summer and budget we’ve had, it’s simply not possible.

Don’t get me wrong I don’t think Lennon is exempt from criticism, some of the selections and substitutions over the last few weeks have been strange to say the least (Kamberi off for Slivka when we are losing at home springs to mind). Chopping and changing 4/5/6 players every week cannot be helping the squad either but I do understand he’s trying almost anything to get a win right now.

I’m very confident that Lennon will turn our season around if he’s given funds in January, we need to get behind him and the team till then though. The thought of going in to the Celtic, Rangers double header and Hearts game on this form is enough to give anyone sleepless nights but maybe if we get behind the team we can spark some life back in to our season. What else can we do right now but have blind faith in our boys to sort it out?

Great post.