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Thread: What freedom?

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Same point, though. I'm not sure people (other than those who don't understand the issues) actually do say that.
    One of the reasons I asked the question was because I witnessed a very long argument between a pacifist and at least a dozen rednecks on another forum. The poor guy was being torn to ribbons by the mob, calling him some really unpleasant names but the thing that came across the most was the fact that they all thought their countrymen were fighting for their freedom. Its bollocks surely?


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  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    One of the reasons I asked the question was because I witnessed a very long argument between a pacifist and at least a dozen rednecks on another forum. The poor guy was being torn to ribbons by the mob, calling him some really unpleasant names but the thing that came across the most was the fact that they all thought their countrymen were fighting for their freedom. Its bollocks surely?
    Suppose, unless you are under attack, are you fighting for your personal freedom?

    Here’s one, during the troubles where Northern Ireland and mainland Britain was being bombed. Were the UKs soldiers fighting to preserve the freedom of its citizens not to be bombed? Or were the IRA fighting for the freedom of their repressed population? Or is it both?

    J

  4. #33
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    One of the reasons I asked the question was because I witnessed a very long argument between a pacifist and at least a dozen rednecks on another forum. The poor guy was being torn to ribbons by the mob, calling him some really unpleasant names but the thing that came across the most was the fact that they all thought their countrymen were fighting for their freedom. Its bollocks surely?
    Internet forums are rarely a great source of factual information, especially one's with a Redneck quota of 12/1. Unless you want to learn about beer and catfish fishing, then you might learn something. Was it Kickback?

  5. #34
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    One of the reasons I asked the question was because I witnessed a very long argument between a pacifist and at least a dozen rednecks on another forum. The poor guy was being torn to ribbons by the mob, calling him some really unpleasant names but the thing that came across the most was the fact that they all thought their countrymen were fighting for their freedom. Its bollocks surely?

    Your use of the term ‘rednecks’ implies that they were (presumably) American, am I right in assuming that?



    americans tend to bandy the word freedom around quite liberally, and tend to think everything their armed forces/govt are doing is to protect freedom and their way of life.

    they refer to their country as home of the brave and land of the free remember


    i haven’t heard anyone else talking about recent wars being about our personal freedom

  6. #35
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    I can't say I've ever heard anyone in this country saying the armed forces were fighting for our freedom in relation to any conflict since WW2.

  7. #36
    Coaching Staff HUTCHYHIBBY's Avatar
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    The OP is fishing as far as I'm concerned, all very strange. 😔

  8. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    The OP is fishing as far as I'm concerned, all very strange. 😔
    Fishing for an answer to my question maybe? All very strange you think anything else.

  9. #38
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    Fishing for an answer to my question maybe? All very strange you think anything else.
    It's a pretty poorly worded question though, which is probably why we've got over a page of decent responses, but you still don't consider it's been answered.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I can't say I've ever heard anyone in this country saying the armed forces were fighting for our freedom in relation to any conflict since WW2.
    I’ve heard loads. Those serving in Argentina, Ireland, Afghanistan and Iraq were fighting for our freedom and defending our nation.

    Probably more to do with the whole poppy thing becoming politicised and morphing into something it really shouldn’t.

    And the OP has a point. One thing I see regularly is the minute freedom is defined in any abstract way, you start to see those who can’t see past the traditional, westernised way of thinking come down on them like a ton of bricks.

    Personally, I’d advise them not to go there and stick to rememberance.
    Last edited by Pete; 11-11-2018 at 01:12 AM.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    The OP is fishing as far as I'm concerned, all very strange. 😔

    I agree. Unless he is 13 years old he needs to find a girlfriend.

  12. #41
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    "War for freedom" is the biggest lie humanity ever told.

    As long as there is freedom, there is freedom to fight. It's a perpetual cycle and it's entirely deliberate.

    The ruling classes know that war can never really come to an end. So they sell us this lie of hope and peace to keep us fighting, while they profit from the on going destruction and blood shed.

  13. #42
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I can't say I've ever heard anyone in this country saying the armed forces were fighting for our freedom in relation to any conflict since WW2.
    Nope, they changed the rhetoric from "freedom" to "weapons of mass destruction". Weapons that clearly the counties they invaded had none of. Because if they had of done, you can be bloody well sure that they would not have invaded them.

  14. #43
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    "War for freedom" is the biggest lie humanity ever told.

    As long as there is freedom, there is freedom to fight. It's a perpetual cycle and it's entirely deliberate.

    The ruling classes know that war can never really come to an end. So they sell us this lie of hope and peace to keep us fighting, while they profit from the on going destruction and blood shed.
    Again, who actually uses that expression?

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  15. #44
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Again, who actually uses that expression?

    Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
    Almost no one. Because people want to believe so much that fighting can bring an end to fighting. Who really wants to accept that they're nothing more than a mere pawn in the game of war? It's easier to believe an illusion than to face up to the harsh reality of the truth.

  16. #45
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    I'm so confused by this thread.

  17. #46
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I'm so confused by this thread.
    What's confusing? We were lied to. There's nothing confusing about that.

  18. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    What's confusing? We were lied to. There's nothing confusing about that.
    Well... The thread is about "celebrating" (that was the word used in one of the posts) the deaths of those that fought and died for their country in the 1st World War, because they were fighting for our freedom.

    Then we've people going on about other wars since, trying to say they're included... Then we have someone else going on and on about "freedom" as the excuse when we've all basically agreed that WMD, Iran, Syria etc are anything but.

    So in terms of this actual thread where we're all pretty sure WW1, and most probably WW2 were for freedom and the others much less so (if at all)... To then bang on about freedom and then say no one's actually going on about it.

    Well... That is most confusing



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  19. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    Your use of the term ‘rednecks’ implies that they were (presumably) American, am I right in assuming that?



    americans tend to bandy the word freedom around quite liberally, and tend to think everything their armed forces/govt are doing is to protect freedom and their way of life.

    they refer to their country as home of the brave and land of the free remember


    i haven’t heard anyone else talking about recent wars being about our personal freedom
    I was in New York in the summer and noticed that the fire engines had as their logo, not something like, 'Protecting New Yorkers', or, 'Ever Brave, Ever Ready', or even, 'Putting Ourselves in the Way of Danger to Keep You Safe', but...'Defending Liberty'. I realise that I might be missing background to that which makes sense to native New Yorkers, and I recognise and respect that what they're doing is often heroic, but that did seem like a fairly liberal bit of bandying. They do an extremely important and worthwhile thing, but it's not generally that.

  20. #49
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    I like the “defending liberty “ part.

    Maybe they mean the statue?

    With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
    Your huddled masses

    Then again, in Trump’s USA, maybe not.

  21. #50
    Coaching Staff -Jonesy-'s Avatar
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    War, huh, yeah
    What is it good for?

    Absolutely Nothin




    Good god y’all

  22. #51
    Well thought I'd let this run for a bit as the judgement squad was gathering. Admittedly I could have framed the question better but heartening to see a few understanding what I meant.
    Not a troll, not 13 and had more girlfriends than I wish to remember thanks

  23. #52
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    They could of stopped Japan had they wanted too though.
    They knew of an impending attack....and moved alot of ships out.

    They were just looking for a reason too get involved.
    Not this pish again.

  24. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Not this pish again.
    Someone needs to have a look at the history books. This kind of pish really gets my goat, everyone is entitled to their own opinion but facts remain facts and anything other than the facts are lies.

  25. #54
    If we are being lied too in regards to the reasons why we have went to war since Iraq then who's idea is it go to war in the first place?

    It's a deep question but one that needs to be understood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    If we are being lied too in regards to the reasons why we have went to war since Iraq then who's idea is it go to war in the first place?

    It's a deep question but one that needs to be understood.

    I can reply to this with some reasoning. After Iraq invaded Kuwait the UN accepted Kuwait's legal desire to kick out Hussein to send him home.

    The UN authorised soldiers did just that. That was 1991.

    As part of the peace deal the UN demanded an annual check to see that Iraq were not producing chemical weapons or weapons of mass destruction.

    In 1992 inspectors were allowed in to Iraq but were not given full access to factories etc. In 1993 ditto. In 1994 ditto. In 1995 96 97 98 99 2000 01 02 03.

    By now the UN had deep suspicions that something was up. Who could blame them after the original invasion in 1991/2?

    That was the basis of the huge international invasion, along with a dodgy dossier saying there were womd that could be fired in 45 minutes.

    Saddam Hussein refused 13 years of full access. He brought it on himself and at the same time gave many states in the West what they had always wanted ie Hussein out.

    Our involvement in the military was backed by a vote in Parliament to join the UN forces which we were duty bound by UN rules.

    That is all that I can say with any precision.

  27. #56
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    But he didn’t have Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    Many American companies profited out of the war and subsequent “reconstruction”.

    Isis has a great start to gain momentum and power on the back of the power vacuum.

    J

  28. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by pollution View Post
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    I can reply to this with some reasoning. After Iraq invaded Kuwait the UN accepted Kuwait's legal desire to kick out Hussein to send him home.

    The UN authorised soldiers did just that. That was 1991.

    As part of the peace deal the UN demanded an annual check to see that Iraq were not producing chemical weapons or weapons of mass destruction.

    In 1992 inspectors were allowed in to Iraq but were not given full access to factories etc. In 1993 ditto. In 1994 ditto. In 1995 96 97 98 99 2000 01 02 03.

    By now the UN had deep suspicions that something was up. Who could blame them after the original invasion in 1991/2?

    That was the basis of the huge international invasion, along with a dodgy dossier saying there were womd that could be fired in 45 minutes.

    Saddam Hussein refused 13 years of full access. He brought it on himself and at the same time gave many states in the West what they had always wanted ie Hussein out.

    Our involvement in the military was backed by a vote in Parliament to join the UN forces which we were duty bound by UN rules.

    That is all that I can say with any precision.

    He was a devious and deranged Canute.

  29. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    He was a devious and deranged Canute.
    Never mind Blair, you could say the same regarding Bush.

  30. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    But he didn’t have Weapons of Mass Destruction.

    Many American companies profited out of the war and subsequent “reconstruction”.

    Isis has a great start to gain momentum and power on the back of the power vacuum.

    J
    Ive always found this cause and effect argument a bit weird.

    By that rationale, we shouldnt have fought WW2 because it created the Cold War.

    I think the iraq war was wrong on its own merits, and i thought so at the time. But isis / aq in iraq or any other bunch of muslim headbangers had existed long before iraq, and would have sprung up elsewhere- like Afghanistan for exampe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Not this pish again.
    What a stupid argument - even if it was true, japan was still attacking them surely? And yet, by your logic, that was the US war mongerers fault?

    Should they have instead left their fleet their to be bombed?

    Edit - not your argument ODS, the one yiu replied to!

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