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Thread: What freedom?

  1. #1

    What freedom?

    Exactly what freedoms are we supposed to thank army vets here and in USA for?
    WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Afghanistan? Exactly what is it that millions of people died for?


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  3. #2
    Maybe we are not all Nazis and killing Jews and disabled people? That's a start.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    Maybe we are not all Nazis and killing Jews and disabled people? That's a start.
    OK but it was a serious question. Do you really think that would be how Europe would have turned out? Are you saying all the countries Germany conquered would be converted to Nazism at the end of the war? How long would that have lasted? Maybe I should have taken WW2 out of the question. What about all the other conflicts since then? What freedoms are we celebrating exactly?

  5. #4
    so for a start, WW2 doesnt even need explained, the korean war was all about trying to stop the slaughter of millions of koreans so not a direct freedom for british people but thats not what the army or the UN is always there for. Vietnam is obviously a very debated topic but again surely americas involvement was to stop a takeover by the communists, could again argue they got involved for the benefit of many Vietnamese people but there will always be another argument. I have my own view on the other 3 but surely keeping people safe in the own country has to be appreciated. But im sure you know all that anyway

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by allant1981 View Post
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    so for a start, WW2 doesnt even need explained, the korean war was all about trying to stop the slaughter of millions of koreans so not a direct freedom for british people but thats not what the army or the UN is always there for. Vietnam is obviously a very debated topic but again surely americas involvement was to stop a takeover by the communists, could again argue they got involved for the benefit of many Vietnamese people but there will always be another argument. I have my own view on the other 3 but surely keeping people safe in the own country has to be appreciated. But im sure you know all that anyway
    I was going to say in my opening comment "for the pedants out there I'm not asking for the reasons behind these wars" but thought maybe no need. I was wrong! Can anyone tell me exactly what people mean when referring to ANY conflict nowadays, both here but especially in USA when they continually say "they fought or are fighting for our freedom"

  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Your whole premise for this thread is lost as soon as you used the word "celebrate". It is anything but "celebrate".

    It's to remember what's happened to people on all sides and by remembering, hopefully people won't be so keen to go down that line again (often a forlorn hope to be fair).



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  8. #7
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    About to go to work so can't get into this to deeply but on that specific question... It's too big!

    I think every conflict has different reasons, WW2 was obvious, Iraq less so.


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    Last edited by Just Alf; 07-11-2018 at 08:45 AM.
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  9. #8
    A view from an American forum

    In the last 100 years, how many times has the US military ever been engaged in a conflict that was truly about fighting for our freedom? I'm struggling to think of a single instance.

    Neither of the World Wars was about American freedom. None of the conflicts in which the US murdered millions in order to stop people in a different country from establishing communist systems was about American freedoms.

    No, the idea of the US military “fighting for our freedoms" is nothing more than propaganda meant to make imperialism smell like a rose.

  10. #9
    I would suggest it's even more nonsensical for Brits to believe our soldiers are fighting and dying for our "freedom"

  11. #10
    WW2 obviously stands out due to the genuine threat of invasion of GB and the unquestioned evillness of the Nazis.

    The others consisted of fighting for our perceived national advantage/strategic objectives. Nobody is arguing with that, surely?

    Part of our strategic objective is promulgating liberal democracy. We do live in a very free society and that is a valuable thing we shouldn't lose sight of, imo.

  12. #11
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    The freedom for you to express your opinion on social media. Many people who've lost family members in both world wars would probably take objection to your post but still you have the freedom to voice your opinion. If the UK/Scotland had been on the losing side in either of those wars that might not have been the case.

    You just have to look at other totalitarian regimes at present to see the freedoms you enjoy that the people living there don't. There's also an argument to be made that you might not even be alive had the wars continued with a different conclusion.

  13. #12
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    You could argue that even the unpalatable or illegal wars that have been fought on our behalf contribute towards the standard of living we have today.

    We have the freedom to burn fossil fuels in our cars and go anywhere we please partly due to our dodgy oil wars. We live in one of the most prosperous nations in the planet, much of it built on our imperial past. With that prosperity comes a freedom that many can't enjoy.

    Whilst we're not condoning the reasons behind these wars or praising the leaders who chose to fight them, are we not acknowledging the contributions of those who had to stand and fight whether they believed in what they were doing or not?

    (And that's before you get involved with the likes of WW2 when we were clearly fighting for a greater good against a terrible evil?)

  14. #13
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    I would suggest it's even more nonsensical for Brits to believe our soldiers are fighting and dying for our "freedom"
    I dunno about today's professional soldiers but the conscripts who went off to both World wars died for our freedom whether they liked it or not!

  15. #14
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    A view from an American forum

    In the last 100 years, how many times has the US military ever been engaged in a conflict that was truly about fighting for our freedom? I'm struggling to think of a single instance.

    Neither of the World Wars was about American freedom. None of the conflicts in which the US murdered millions in order to stop people in a different country from establishing communist systems was about American freedoms.

    No, the idea of the US military “fighting for our freedoms" is nothing more than propaganda meant to make imperialism smell like a rose.
    WW2 was certainly about American freedom. Japan had already attacked America and hitler was conspiring with the Mexicans to attack America in the south.

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  16. #15
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    WW2 was certainly about American freedom. Japan had already attacked America and hitler was conspiring with the Mexicans to attack America in the south.
    I was going to answer the same but thought I'd either be preaching to the self inflicted ignorant or feeding a troll.

  17. #16
    Coaching Staff HUTCHYHIBBY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    The freedom for you to express your opinion on social media. Many people who've lost family members in both world wars would probably take objection to your post but still you have the freedom to voice your opinion. If the UK/Scotland had been on the losing side in either of those wars that might not have been the case.

    You just have to look at other totalitarian regimes at present to see the freedoms you enjoy that the people living there don't. There's also an argument to be made that you might not even be alive had the wars continued with a different conclusion.
    I think you've answered the OP well there, whilst biting your tongue at the same time, I admire your restraint. 👍

  18. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    WW2 was certainly about American freedom. Japan had already attacked America and hitler was conspiring with the Mexicans to attack America in the south.
    They could of stopped Japan had they wanted too though.
    They knew of an impending attack....and moved alot of ships out.

    They were just looking for a reason too get involved.

  19. #18
    Are all wars are bankers wars?

    How many times have we been lied to for the reasons to go to war in the first place? Iraq, Libya & Syria.

  20. #19
    Remembrance Day is rooted in taking time to reflect on the massive and tragic human cost of the First World War, with this year especially focused on those origins due to it being the centenary of the war ending. The first Remembrance Day was held exactly a year after the war's end. I don't really see why some folk choose to get so worked about it all, though nor do I agree with the more recent 'commercialisation' of what should be a simple, sombre time of reflection. It's an individual decision whether or not to commemorate the occasion or wear a poppy.

  21. #20
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    They could of stopped Japan had they wanted too though.
    They knew of an impending attack....and moved alot of ships out.

    They were just looking for a reason too get involved.
    "have", "to" and "a lot".

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    A view from an American forum

    In the last 100 years, how many times has the US military ever been engaged in a conflict that was truly about fighting for our freedom? I'm struggling to think of a single instance.

    Neither of the World Wars was about American freedom. None of the conflicts in which the US murdered millions in order to stop people in a different country from establishing communist systems was about American freedoms.

    No, the idea of the US military “fighting for our freedoms" is nothing more than propaganda meant to make imperialism smell like a rose.
    Pearl Harbour? The Aleutian Islands, Guam.

    https://www.history.com/topics/world...ands#section_1

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    Last edited by Bristolhibby; 07-11-2018 at 02:20 PM.

  23. #22
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    I think you've answered the OP well there, whilst biting your tongue at the same time, I admire your restraint. 👍
    Oh dear, was it that obvious.

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    They could of stopped Japan had they wanted too though.
    They knew of an impending attack....and moved alot of ships out.

    They were just looking for a reason too get involved.
    Would an imminent attack by Japan not have been reason enough? The evidence that the nazis were colluding with the Mexicans to attack also had a major bearing on their decision to join the war.

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  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I was going to answer the same but thought I'd either be preaching to the self inflicted ignorant or feeding a troll.
    Good to have the moral high ground?

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    Are all wars are bankers wars?

    How many times have we been lied to for the reasons to go to war in the first place? Iraq, Libya & Syria.
    Pretty much my point. Pity most are choosing to ignore it

  27. #26
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    Pretty much my point. Pity most are choosing to ignore it
    I'm not sure they're ignoring it, but they are putting across an alternative view.

  28. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I'm not sure they're ignoring it, but they are putting across an alternative view.
    In this case its the same thing isn't it? Ive asked a question and its not really been answered. I actually agree with almost everything thats been said about the world wars and people in other countries. Just wondering why people still say our forces are fighting for our freedom
    Last edited by Bangkok Hibby; 07-11-2018 at 03:49 PM.

  29. #28
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    In this case its the same thing isn't it? Ive asked a question and its not really been answered. I actually agree with almost everything thats been said about the world wars and people in other countries. Just wondering why our freedom is still used as a reason for our forces to be anywhere these days
    Is it, though?

    Genuine question. I've not seen any of the more recent wars being justified by use of the F word. Safety, yes. Protection of interests, yes. Regime change, yes. Protection of democracy, yes. I'm not necessarily saying that these were all valid reasons for the wars in question, but my point is I can't remember any UK politician using that word to justify any military action.

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Is it, though?

    Genuine question. I've not seen any of the more recent wars being justified by use of the F word. Safety, yes. Protection of interests, yes. Regime change, yes. Protection of democracy, yes. I'm not necessarily saying that these were all valid reasons for the wars in question, but my point is I can't remember any UK politician using that word to justify any military action.
    Ah ive edited my post before your reply...badly worded and I agree with you.

  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bangkok Hibby View Post
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    Ah ive edited my post before your reply...badly worded and I agree with you.
    Same point, though. I'm not sure people (other than those who don't understand the issues) actually do say that.

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