Hearts and the FOH contributions

[Alan62]

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You have effectively just said if it went tits up at us you would find it weird that supporters would pledge their money to save our club.

You need to take your Green tinted glasses off !!

No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


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[Just Alf]

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No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


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I, sort of, agree with that... If was giving up something like that then I wouldn't subscribe either, in fact at one point I had to take a break. But at the moment I've got everything covered so can afford to pay a wee bit towards Neil's pot.



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[CropleyWasGod]

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It's not just the FOH contributions that puts them miles ahead of us when it comes to cash available. They've also taken many millions in owners contributions, anonymous donations, a Hearts minded sponsor and bank loans. Approximately an extra £10m on top of the £8m since Admin. Anyone know what the FFP rules are?

We don't have FFP rules in Scotland.

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[CapitalGreen]

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We don't have FFP rules in Scotland.

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Presumably Hearts are interested in qualifying for UEFA competitions though.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Presumably Hearts are interested in qualifying for UEFA competitions though.

Yep, but I'm not sure that there would be a problem with the UEFA FFP rules.

In the last accounts, they only had 1 loan of 2.4m, and they took out additional "facilities" of 1.75m in October. Even if they took full advantage of those facilities, the total borrowings wouldn't be enough to bother UEFA IMO.

The fans' contributions, whether FOH or private, shouldn't be an issue either.

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[greenginger]

While I would be the first to say the £8 million or so raised by FoH has been a great effort by the fans , its what been done with the money that I find less than wholly beneficial to the Club.

First £ 4 million or so went towards HOMFC working capital. ( kept the lights on and financed the Cathro revolution )

Next £ 2.5 million went to the new stand budget ( really paying for the cac handed shambles of a construction project )

Money now being accumulated to pay Mrs Budge her £2.5 million plus 6% interest.

[MB62]

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I don't think it's a trust issue, I suspect our pink chums had reasons to cough up that we just don't have thankfully. If our backs had been against the wall, I'm sure the response would be the same as theirs.

It certainly was, and possibly still is, for me. I joined at the weekend, possibly against my better judgement, but signed up anyway. I didn't know who was involved in HSL so have just done a search and discovered the names and faces behind it. I am now a wee bit more comfortable with the people who are on committee as I personally know 2 or 3 of them and feel a certain amount of trust (which I didn't have previously).

I signed up, NOT because I am concerned about what that lot over the road are doing, I personally couldn't care less if they contribute 3p or £3billion a week, I support Hibernian and what any other club does is irrelevant, I signed up because I feel it is important that we the fans reach a stage where we have 25.1% MINIMUM of the share issue of the club, which keeps us safe for our and future generations, without fear of a Mad Vlad, Wallet Mercenary, type headcase taking over and destroying our club.

STF will not be around forever, he will eventually join the rest of the Hibees visiting the Angels High Above, as we all will, and I have no idea what will happen to the control of Hibernian in this event. I keep hearing everything will be fine and there are plans in place, but nobody seems to either know or are willing to say, what these plans are.

[Alan62]

Does anyone really think that auld Budgie will just roll over and leave when FoH rustle up the cash? Isn't the constant moving of the goalposts just delaying tactics on her part?

[Ozyhibby]

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It's not just the FOH contributions that puts them miles ahead of us when it comes to cash available. They've also taken many millions in owners contributions, anonymous donations, a Hearts minded sponsor and bank loans. Approximately an extra £10m on top of the £8m since Admin. Anyone know what the FFP rules are?

There are no FFP rules.


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[Spike Mandela]

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While I would be the first to say the £8 million or so raised by FoH has been a great effort by the fans , its what been done with the money that I find less than wholly beneficial to the Club.

First £ 4 million or so went towards HOMFC working capital. ( kept the lights on and financed the Cathro revolution )

Next £ 2.5 million went to the new stand budget ( really paying for the cac handed shambles of a construction project )

Money now being accumulated to pay Mrs Budge her £2.5 million plus 6% interest.

In Feb 2014 Budge said she wouldn’t be here more than 5 years and the club would be in complete fan ownership by no later than Feb 2019. Hearts are no nearer that now than then.

Currently Hearts season ticket holders pay £320, £340, £395 and £495. If they are each adding £20 a month To FoH they are paying between, £560 to £735 to watch what up till now has been pretty drab stuff.

I prefer the Hibs model and I’m comfortable what I pay for it, the value for money I get and the professional way in which the club is run.

[Ozyhibby]

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Does anyone really think that auld Budgie will just roll over and leave when FoH rustle up the cash? Isn't the constant moving of the goalposts just delaying tactics on her part?

There is no evidence she is clinging onto power. The delay in paying her back is because the fans wanted the new stand built. FoH could pay her back and still ask her to stay on anyway.


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[Alan62]

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There is no evidence she is clinging onto power. The delay in paying her back is because the fans wanted the new stand built. FoH could pay her back and still ask her to stay on anyway.


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I hear the odd whisper from close to the club. Those whispers suggest otherwise.

Of course, they could ask her to stay. But, presuming you've met jambos before, you'll know that there will be many amongst the FoH elite who feel that in the interests of natural order they should be provided with an XXL maroon blazer and a seat at the table.

[greenginger]

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There is no evidence she is clinging onto power. The delay in paying her back is because the fans wanted the new stand built. FoH could pay her back and still ask her to stay on anyway.


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One problem with the original Budge/FoH deal was the Club was meant to be passed on debt free .

As Crops points out they took a £ 1.75 million facility from the bank a year ago and there's still a stand to finish.

Anyone think FoH might propose to repay Budge her £ 2.4 million less the Club debts ?

[Peevemor]

It has to be said that, even though their new stand wouldn't have been built without her being there, the current result (with all the design faults) compared to the money spent would see anyone that isn't the owner lose their job.

The Potter DOF model that she put in place wasn't really a success either.

[Bostonhibby]

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It has to be said that, even though their new stand wouldn't have been built without her being there, the current result (with all the design faults) compared to the money spent would see anyone that isn't the owner lose their job.

The Potter DOF model that she put in place wasn't really a success either.

There's a lot of sense in this, and it relates to a view I've often shared, if you take the years since they put themselves into administration and the cash sums the fans have credibly raised, the stewardship of that money is abysmal.

We frequently hear about the superiority they are creating / are about to create yet in real terms over that period they've blown all that cash on the now legendary one tier stand, laid a smaller than regulation pitch and signed a couple of giant squads of players.

We've got all of those facilities done and more, so lets look at the footballing success they've funded over the same post admin period - anyone think they've had more success than us? More return for all that they've put in in comparison. I don't. What they MAY achieve is speculation but the direction it will take is firmly in the hands of the good doctor and what she wants to do with the FOH money and when - it's not a great business model.

I have no problem separating HSL from FOH, for all the reasons others have expressed in the past, they are fundamentally different schemes - one will give the fans as many shares and as much ownership as they want as soon as they want it(HSL) and the money only goes to one place, the other, of necessity in the early days was the only show in town if they wanted the one realistic bidder to actually save their club.

Fair play to the fans for stepping up but they are now hostage to fortune again - they can't really step away easily - what will the good doctor want or need to do next to defer the transfer again? The single stand they had to build has overrun on all fronts, still isn't finished and still has to be fully paid for, there's the newly created expectation on the pitch to fund as well.

As far as HSL goes I have been in from day one as has my family but it's got nothing to do with what the rather uncertain Hearts model is and whilst the look at how big FOH is approach doesn't worry me at all, if the cash was demonstrably locked in and properly managed over say the next 5 years it could become interesting but I'm more concerned about what we do to continue on the upward spiral we are on just now.

[WhileTheChief..]

An awful lot of straw clutching re FOH.

Their fans don’t give a stuff what the cash donations are spent on. They don’t care when Budge hands over control and they love the fact that they’ve paid for their new stand themselves.

They also love the new stand and don’t consider any of it a waste of money.

If we were donating that amount of cash we’d all be slapping each other on the back about how wonderful we are as fans. No point in trying to rubbish what FOH has achieved, it’s been pretty remarkable.

As for the donations dropping off after a few a few bad results, that’s not exactly happened. I keep reading on here that donations will stop when x,y or z happens but they carry on regardless.

Fair play to them but it’s not a model that every other club should try and follow.

[BSEJVT]

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An awful lot of straw clutching re FOH.

Their fans don’t give a stuff what the cash donations are spent on. They don’t care when Budge hands over control and they love the fact that they’ve paid for their new stand themselves.

They also love the new stand and don’t consider any of it a waste of money.

If we were donating that amount of cash we’d all be slapping each other on the back about how wonderful we are as fans. No point in trying to rubbish what FOH has achieved, it’s been pretty remarkable.

As for the donations dropping off after a few a few bad results, that’s not exactly happened. I keep reading on here that donations will stop when x,y or z happens but they carry on regardless.

Fair play to them but it’s not a model that every other club should try and follow.

If you mean what led them to the requirement Agreed

If not why not?

Surely supporters prepared to raise more money to put a better team on the park, has absolutely no downside??

[NAE NOOKIE]

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No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


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I don't know how many Jambos gave up new washing machines and the like to contribute to FOH …. I'm pretty sure some did when faced with the possibility that something they loved and they felt was an important part of their lives was about to disappear forever. I'm sure that in similar circumstances a lot of Hibs fans would do the same, in fact fans of any club.

But that is not what HSL is suggesting folk should do, in fact they have been fastidious in ensuring that it is made clear at every turn that folk should only be contributing if they can comfortably afford to …. it should be no more to your average fan than buying a couple of pints or a fish supper, not a sacrifice which impacts on your day to day life, including making a dent in your leisure spending.

Like you I spend money on a season ticket every season, I make purchases from the club shop from time to time, I buy food inside the stadium every time I visit … if you chuck in travelling to games and other sundries I probably spend at least £1000 a year on the club. Like you I have no reason whatsoever to reproach myself when it comes to my contribution to Hibs being a viable professional football club.

But, as things stand at the moment I find myself in a position where I can contribute £10 a month to HSL without it having any impact whatsoever on my ability to pay my way vis a vis household bills, day to day living, or it having an impact on my other leisure activities outside of football. In view of that I can think of no better way to spend less than £2.50 a week than on the football club I love …. if along with the other 2000 or so folk contributing that means Hibs are better able to compete with our rivals and it pushes the fans of the club closer towards being able to protect it from any future asset strippers I just cant see a down side …. money well spent in my opinion.

In all honesty I don't give a monkeys if my contribution means that in the fullness of time I will be a fully paid up member of HSL .. when that day comes I probably wont even notice unless HSL send me a certificate or something … so far as I'm concerned what I have made is an open ended commitment to Hibs which will continue until such time as either my finances take a downturn or I'm hit by the proverbial bus

I have nothing but respect for people like yourself, how can anybody question your commitment as a Hibs fan. But the other side of that coin is that some folk are happy to go a wee bit further and I reckon that like me they see it as something they are happy to do if there is the possibility that it will make the experience of supporting the club that wee bit better

At the end of the day I am a firm believer in the assertion that football clubs aren't just comprised of the owners, management and players … there is one vital component without which a professional football club is nothing and that is the folk who support it …. If you are a person who truly believes that then like buying a season ticket and cheering on the team from the stands or making purchases from the club shop joining a scheme like HSL is just one more way of proving that time honoured phrase and making it a reality …. when fans are prepared to help finance their club just for the sake of it then we truly can say 'we are the club' without it being a hollow phrase.

That for me makes every penny spent worth it.

[Tom Hart RIP]

I’ve been donating for a couple of years and was persuaded by Amit in Behind the Goals one Saturday. As we were speaking I noticed Ally McLeod and Amit introduced us. Signed up that day and haven’t regretted it.

[JimboHibs]

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No, I said it’s weird that the commitment appears to be indefinite. The main milestone for FoH donations has been reached. The second target (stand redevelopment) has been almost achieved. The next level is indefinite free (and VAT free) cash until the end of time to pay for players.

That’s a very different thing than a normal relationship with your supporters. I happily pay for my season ticket. I’m delighted to pay for as many European and cup games as possible. I am willing to buy merchandise from the shop. Am I giving up the family holiday/new washing machine/pension contributions/nights out etc to falsely inflate the club’s budget every year until the end of time? Eh, naw.


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Im still bemused why you think it's weird the donations are indefinite.

You do realise HSL is indefinite,HSL wont refuse donations once the perceived target of shares is reached & equally supporters will continue to want to donate to HSL,nothing weird about it.

[lucky]

FoH have been magnificent for Hearts without them they’d still be on their knees. HSL as many have said are a different model. We can achieve a fairly sizeable chunk of club shares to safeguard it for future generations but at the same time we are giving the manager more money to spend on players. I still think HSL has to be more open and democratic but I’m a member who stopped my monthly contributions but after reading some of the posts on here I’ve decided to contribute again.

[Alan62]

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Im still bemused why you think it's weird the donations are indefinite.

You do realise HSL is indefinite,HSL wont refuse donations once the perceived target of shares is reached & equally supporters will continue to want to donate to HSL,nothing weird about it.

OK, what I find weird about FoH donations is that there's a level of acceptance that, no matter what, the donations continue. So, at the beginning, it was 'save the club'. Everyone rushes to save the club. Then it's 'build the stand', they keep paying to build the stand. Next up it's fund the team, aye, OK we'll keep paying. What are they, something like £8m in and still haven't started paying back the cash Queen Anne's debt.

HSL feels a lot more sensible to me. There's a share ownership target, there's an agreement on how the money is spent (ring-fenced for the playing squad). Of course, once the shares are purchased, it may continue to gather funds to invest in the squad and, frankly, I think that's fair enough. Back in the olden days there were small scale initiatives like Club 86 which took an interest in youth development and so on. That's all good.

What isn't good is having a sketchy big chunk of your annual budget which is attributed to 'annual charitable donation which may or may not continue'.

So, to sum up, yes, I still find it weird. Remember, some folks are contributing the value of their season ticket again and definitely don't come into the category of wealthy fans with lots of money to spare.

[Iggy Pope]

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An awful lot of straw clutching re FOH.

Their fans don’t give a stuff what the cash donations are spent on. They don’t care when Budge hands over control and they love the fact that they’ve paid for their new stand themselves.

They also love the new stand and don’t consider any of it a waste of money.

If we were donating that amount of cash we’d all be slapping each other on the back about how wonderful we are as fans. No point in trying to rubbish what FOH has achieved, it’s been pretty remarkable.

As for the donations dropping off after a few a few bad results, that’s not exactly happened. I keep reading on here that donations will stop when x,y or z happens but they carry on regardless.

Fair play to them but it’s not a model that every other club should try and follow.

Not the case that bit.
Cancellers occur every bad defeat or cup knock out and the FOH Admins get dogs abuse every time.

[Tug Wilson]

FoH was created through extreme necessity. That is save the club. Since then there always seems to be another necessity to spend money on like the pitch or the stand. I am not sure how much has gone into the playing squad.

Certainly, in the future there may be a time when they have paid for the new infrastructure, paid off their debt, repaid Budge (plus interest) and started to move towards fan ownership. However, that time seems a while away. Until then a large amount of FoH contributions will still go to shoring up their club and not on better players.

Yes they have gone from abject rubbish to reasonable in one window but I think too many on here are seeing their short term form as some sort of sign of long term success. They still have a lot of bang average players. We still have a solid club that is run well and progressing nicely.

[JimboHibs]

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OK, what I find weird about FoH donations is that there's a level of acceptance that, no matter what, the donations continue. So, at the beginning, it was 'save the club'. Everyone rushes to save the club. Then it's 'build the stand', they keep paying to build the stand. Next up it's fund the team, aye, OK we'll keep paying. What are they, something like £8m in and still haven't started paying back the cash Queen Anne's debt.

HSL feels a lot more sensible to me. There's a share ownership target, there's an agreement on how the money is spent (ring-fenced for the playing squad). Of course, once the shares are purchased, it may continue to gather funds to invest in the squad and, frankly, I think that's fair enough. Back in the olden days there were small scale initiatives like Club 86 which took an interest in youth development and so on. That's all good.

What isn't good is having a sketchy big chunk of your annual budget which is attributed to 'annual charitable donation which may or may not continue'.

So, to sum up, yes, I still find it weird. Remember, some folks are contributing the value of their season ticket again and definitely don't come into the category of wealthy fans with lots of money to spare.

It done matter if folks dont come or are into the category of wealthy fans,or that you think HSL is more sensible. Hearts fans are contributing because they want to and again I don't hear Hearts supporters concerned at a budget attributed to an 'annual charitable donation' ... there's nothing weird about supporters regardless of who they support making donations to the club they support.