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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    Hybrid and electric vehicles will do very little or nothing at all to bring down emissions, but it sounds good.
    Simply not true.

    Clearly air pollution and local emissions are reduced dramatically.

    Over all carbon footprint largely depends on the carbon mix of the electricity supplied.

    http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green


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  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Simply not true.

    Clearly air pollution and local emissions are reduced dramatically.

    Over all carbon footprint largely depends on the carbon mix of the electricity supplied.

    http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green
    Thatís all well and good, but if everyone on the planet switched to electric cars global warming would be accelerated. Cars arenít really the problem, but politically theyíre an easy target for western governments. Cleaner energy production is the only solution to global warming problem, but it wonít happen.
    Its mostly populist policies in the west, the plastic problem is a great example, none of the plastic we use in this country ends up in the sea, but weíre bombarded with videos and adverts telling us not to use it because itís killing the marine life.
    My daughter came home from school telling me we need to use less water, no we donít, weíve got more water than we know what to do with in Scotland.
    Rather than bombarding us with useless information, we should be trying to do whatís necessary to try and halt the problem of burning fossil fuels. Itís not a game anymore, itís a matter of life and death for us as a species.

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Thatís all well and good, but if everyone on the planet switched to electric cars global warming would be accelerated. Cars arenít really the problem, but politically theyíre an easy target for western governments. Cleaner energy production is the only solution to global warming problem, but it wonít happen.
    Its mostly populist policies in the west, the plastic problem is a great example, none of the plastic we use in this country ends up in the sea, but weíre bombarded with videos and adverts telling us not to use it because itís killing the marine life.
    My daughter came home from school telling me we need to use less water, no we donít, weíve got more water than we know what to do with in Scotland.
    Rather than bombarding us with useless information, we should be trying to do whatís necessary to try and halt the problem of burning fossil fuels. Itís not a game anymore, itís a matter of life and death for us as a species.
    I get your general point on fossil fuels and coal electricity generation is the most obvious and biggest contributor but transportation is also a big contributor in its own right.

    Suggesting that because the electricity generation is not of the right kind yet in some (not all!) countries to enable the full benefit of EVís to be felt in greenhouse gas reductions therefore mitigates the benefit of EVís totally is incorrect.

    That type of stance also ignores the direct and immediate benefit to air quality...a huge problem and mass killer in itself.

    Then there is the permanent removal of the burning of refined petroleum products in the end use case and all the benefits that brings.

    Sure if you replace burning petrol or diesel with burning coal to generate the electricity then you are giving up some or all of your gains but thatís not set in stone and in places like Scotland which has a high renewables mix is already not the case.

    Battery technology is also developing apace reducing the reliance on rare elements like cobalt, increasing efficiency (and thus their carbon footprint) as well as the development of grid level storage to further leverage the use and deployment of renewable electricity through the grid.

    Are EVís a panacea to the issue of burning fossil fuel? Absolutely not. But they are definitely a part of what will be a multi layered solution to the problem. Simply dismissing them as Ďjust as badí is not accurate nor reflective of the change that they can help to facilitate.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Thatís all well and good, but if everyone on the planet switched to electric cars global warming would be accelerated. Cars arenít really the problem, but politically theyíre an easy target for western governments. Cleaner energy production is the only solution to global warming problem, but it wonít happen.
    Its mostly populist policies in the west, the plastic problem is a great example, none of the plastic we use in this country ends up in the sea, but weíre bombarded with videos and adverts telling us not to use it because itís killing the marine life.
    My daughter came home from school telling me we need to use less water, no we donít, weíve got more water than we know what to do with in Scotland.
    Rather than bombarding us with useless information, we should be trying to do whatís necessary to try and halt the problem of burning fossil fuels. Itís not a game anymore, itís a matter of life and death for us as a species.
    As an aside I also challenge your statement on plastics. A huge amount of the UKís plastic used to be shipped abroad where it undoubtedly was not fully recycled....I pretty sure a lot of that was not treated correctly and probably ended up being dumped.

    China has of course recently stopped accepting a lot of the worlds plastic waste. This is no bad thing as itís forcing governments in the west to start owing the issue directly.

    So far so unprepared going by some reports (recycling stopped or reduced in some areas due to the huge backlog of waste).

    The UK is probably one of the better countries in this regard but is still well short of a proper solution so I see no issue in raising awareness of the problem or demanding we take the lead in showing how the issue can be tackled. Small steps like reducing single use plastics can only be a good thing and the more the public demands companies to change their methods (McDonaldís for example have now introduced paper straws instead of plastic ones) the better. Governments are also finally starting to consider the introduction of levies on the producers with the likes of Unilever and the large multi nationals in their sights.

    There appears to be many possible solutions from reduction in use to more effective localized recycling to advanced incineration.

    So as per EVís there is no silver bullet but to some degree to solve any problem you have to start somewhere so raising awareness of the issue and taking at least some initial steps to curb use is something everyone can do.

    Anyway didnít mean to pick on you in particular...itís just Iíve read a lot recently from environmentalists and their organizations bemoaning any step as not good enough or not solving the issue and Iím finding their stance somewhat odd. A good example is the experiment to try and clean up the plastic waste in the Atlantic...derided as it didnít address the root cause of the issue when clearly it should be taken as a small part of a wider solution rather than a solution in itself.

    And Iím up late with bloody painful toothache so feeling a bit grumpy and combative tonight

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member Bishop Hibee's Avatar
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    Back to electric cars, I live in a flat on a main street. Where am I meant to charge an electric car? My main use is the 20 minute drive to and from work. I park in the street outside my work but again, nowhere near a charging point.

    Anyway, arenít we all going to be in driverless Uber car/taxi type vehicles by 2030?
    "Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.' - Paulo Freire

  7. #36
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    I get your general point on fossil fuels and coal electricity generation is the most obvious and biggest contributor but transportation is also a big contributor in its own right.

    Suggesting that because the electricity generation is not of the right kind yet in some (not all!) countries to enable the full benefit of EVís to be felt in greenhouse gas reductions therefore mitigates the benefit of EVís totally is incorrect.

    That type of stance also ignores the direct and immediate benefit to air quality...a huge problem and mass killer in itself.

    Then there is the permanent removal of the burning of refined petroleum products in the end use case and all the benefits that brings.

    Sure if you replace burning petrol or diesel with burning coal to generate the electricity then you are giving up some or all of your gains but thatís not set in stone and in places like Scotland which has a high renewables mix is already not the case.

    Battery technology is also developing apace reducing the reliance on rare elements like cobalt, increasing efficiency (and thus their carbon footprint) as well as the development of grid level storage to further leverage the use and deployment of renewable electricity through the grid.

    Are EVís a panacea to the issue of burning fossil fuel? Absolutely not. But they are definitely a part of what will be a multi layered solution to the problem. Simply dismissing them as Ďjust as badí is not accurate nor reflective of the change that they can help to facilitate.
    I agree completely with that summary. My point is that as things stand in order to generate enough power to fuel electric cars we would do more harm than the cars currently cause.
    Personally as a bit of a petrol head I think electric cars will be the savour of high performance petrol cars. There will be so few of them on the road that they wonít be seen as a problem, but weíve got a long way to go before power generation is at a stage that it becomes carbon neutral. In Scotland we have everything in our favour, but still progress is painfully slow. We should be 100% renewable by now.

    GIRLS DONT LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE SIMON MURRAY

  8. #37
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee View Post
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    Back to electric cars, I live in a flat on a main street. Where am I meant to charge an electric car? My main use is the 20 minute drive to and from work. I park in the street outside my work but again, nowhere near a charging point.

    Anyway, arenít we all going to be in driverless Uber car/taxi type vehicles by 2030?
    This is my problem. Most of Victorian and Edwardian houses donít have parking. We use the street but the Council shows no interest in putting charging infrastrucure in. Iíve heard of plans to attach charging points to lampposts. Might help.

  9. #38
    @hibs.net private member GlesgaeHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    Hybrid and electric vehicles will do very little or nothing at all to bring down emissions, but it sounds good.
    As has already been pointed out, that is simply not true. There are two immediate benefits in terms of emissions reduction:


    1. Zero tailpipe emissions, which improves air quality which is a massive benefit in built up & congested areas.
    2. Lower C02 emissions than ICE vehicles. EVs require grid supplied electricity to charge them (some of which in the UK is still from dirty Coal and Gas). ICE vehicles require grid fed electricity in order to refine the crude oil, fuel burned to transport this to petrol stations, and petrol/diesel burned in our cars producing C02. Even with dirty fuels like coal and oil being used in the grid, EVs are still better for the environment.


    It's also worth pointing out that renewable electricity generation was equivalent to 2/3 of Scotland's Electricity consumption in 2017. Add in Torness and Hunterston providing another big chunk of low carbon electricity in Scotland and it makes driving an EV in Scotland very green!

  10. #39
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    Coal burning power plants aren't necessarily as dirty/polluting as you'd think.
    Quite a few sites have very clever carbon capture going on,,,,

  11. #40
    @hibs.net private member GlesgaeHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Coal burning power plants aren't necessarily as dirty/polluting as you'd think.
    Quite a few sites have very clever carbon capture going on,,,,
    Yes they are.

    The problem with CCS is that it adds significant cost onto the generation to implement the technology, and then to store the captured carbon. Adding this cost onto a method of generating electricity that is already more expensive than Onshore wind is madness. CCS also doesn't totally eliminate the C02 footprint of the generation.

    The dire reality of climate change is staring us in the face. We shouldn't be pissing about with technology that gets rid of most of the carbon from fossil fuel based generation. Renewables work, and are cheap, with costs continuing to fall.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlesgaeHibby View Post
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    Yes they are.

    The problem with CCS is that it adds significant cost onto the generation to implement the technology, and then to store the captured carbon. Adding this cost onto a method of generating electricity that is already more expensive than Onshore wind is madness. CCS also doesn't totally eliminate the C02 footprint of the generation.

    The dire reality of climate change is staring us in the face. We shouldn't be pissing about with technology that gets rid of most of the carbon from fossil fuel based generation. Renewables work, and are cheap, with costs continuing to fall.
    Agree with most of that.

    The concept of Ďclean coalí is even more ludicrous than Ďclean dieselí.

    Why start with the dirtiest of fuels and try and clean it up when there is already many cleaner alternatives that can be developed and made more cost effective?

    The proposed scale of the continued expansion of coal power globally is really quite sobering. To me itís the most obvious area where global action could make a big and important change of direction relatively quickly.

    Sadly there are still too many vested interests for that to happen.

  13. #42
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Agree with most of that.

    The concept of Ďclean coalí is even more ludicrous than Ďclean dieselí.

    Why start with the dirtiest of fuels and try and clean it up when there is already many cleaner alternatives that can be developed and made more cost effective?

    The proposed scale of the continued expansion of coal power globally is really quite sobering. To me itís the most obvious area where global action could make a big and important change of direction relatively quickly.

    Sadly there are still too many vested interests for that to happen.
    Basically that's what the European Green parties have been telling us for decades. Nobody wanted to listen until it's too late, those who persuaded us that economic interests were of higher importance ironically won't have to live with the consequences.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    The EU are investing billions to develop European battery manufacturing.
    The EC intention is good, but it is hampered by the European car industry's lack of willingness to go along with it - think a major stumbling block is the inability of the industry to reach agreement on battery standards? Be interesting to see if this ever gets off the ground ...
    .... Die spinnen, die Briten ....

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    The EC intention is good, but it is hampered by the European car industry's lack of willingness to go along with it - think a major stumbling block is the inability of the industry to reach agreement on battery standards? Be interesting to see if this ever gets off the ground ...
    Not sure where you are getting that from Peejay.

    There is already a significant number of battery factories being built and there is an expectation of still more to come. LG, Samsung and soon Panasonic/Tesla are all investing in Europe capacity as well as Daimler which plans to build two Gigafactories in Germany.

    There is also development of lithium mining in Austria, Czech Republic and Germany to support these factories.

    As ever such things take a long time to come on stream and many £bn to develop but from what I can see things are moving forward at pace.

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Not sure where you are getting that from Peejay.

    There is already a significant number of battery factories being built and there is an expectation of still more to come. LG, Samsung and soon Panasonic/Tesla are all investing in Europe capacity as well as Daimler which plans to build two Gigafactories in Germany.

    There is also development of lithium mining in Austria, Czech Republic and Germany to support these factories.

    As ever such things take a long time to come on stream and many £bn to develop but from what I can see things are moving forward at pace.
    Fair points, but I'm not yet convinced this is really going to happen in Europe (or moreover Germany) - experience with the German car industry and its "good intentions" suggests caution is best advised here ... still who knows what lies down the road -

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/15/1...-battery-cells
    https://global.handelsblatt.com/comp...rmakers-941625
    .... Die spinnen, die Briten ....

  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    Fair points, but I'm not yet convinced this is really going to happen in Europe (or moreover Germany) - experience with the German car industry and its "good intentions" suggests caution is best advised here ... still who knows what lies down the road -

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/8/15/1...-battery-cells
    https://global.handelsblatt.com/comp...rmakers-941625
    Cheers PJ, yeah from a home grown German battery supplier view they really have let the Asian suppliers steal a march on them.

    Doesnít mean we wonít see European gigafactories I suppose, just unlikely to be European owned.

    That said TerraE might get something going and the dynamics of shipping lots of fuel cells half way around the world persuade me that one way or the other weíll see battery production in Europe using European produced battery grade lithium.

    Not of too much concern to most I suppose but a small amount of my SIPP would like to see that happen

  18. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Cheers PJ, yeah from a home grown German battery supplier view they really have let the Asian suppliers steal a march on them.

    Doesnít mean we wonít see European gigafactories I suppose, just unlikely to be European owned.

    That said TerraE might get something going and the dynamics of shipping lots of fuel cells half way around the world persuade me that one way or the other weíll see battery production in Europe using European produced battery grade lithium.

    Not of too much concern to most I suppose but a small amount of my SIPP would like to see that happen
    Ah, suddenly "RyeSloan the eco-warrior" makes sense.

  19. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Ah, suddenly "RyeSloan the eco-warrior" makes sense.
    Ha ha yeah I have my own vested interests ;-)

    But to some degree Iím a futurist at heart so no surprise my investment philosophy ends up with me having quite a bit of exposure to transformative technologies and the companies that are looking to deliver that...EVís (and the associated need for lithium), grid storage, alternative energy (anaerobic digestion and the like) to name just a few!

  20. #49
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    The current problem with electric vehicles at the moment appears to be demand far outstripping supply. I've been quote 6 month lead in time from ordering to delivery.

    FWIW this gives a 'real world' range for most vehicles

    https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-ca...ource=20181031
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    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  21. #50
    @hibs.net private member GlesgaeHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    The current problem with electric vehicles at the moment appears to be demand far outstripping supply. I've been quote 6 month lead in time from ordering to delivery.

    FWIW this gives a 'real world' range for most vehicles

    https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-ca...ource=20181031
    Absolutely, as I've mentioned the Nissan factory at Sunderland can produce 50,000 Leaf vehicles per year for all of Europe.

    The 'real world' range is an interesting read. Gives the new Leaf at 128 miles real range. Seems reasonable - took our new Leaf pool car to a meeting yesterday which was a 100 mile round trip and had about 20 miles range left when I got back.

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