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  1. #151
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    I think the point the author was making was that there was massive investment in currency controls to stabilise the economy, much like what the UK did during the 1960s and 1970s. This era in politics is commonly described as the 'post-war consensus' because far from being socialist, it reflected broad agreement between a left-centrist Labour and a moderate-right Conservatism.

    I think the author also points out that much of Chavez's spending didn't go into creating nationalised infrastructure but into imports, leaving a lot of infrastructure in private hands.

    It's not full-blown socialism by any stretch and I find it hard to disagree with him that it isn't as simple as "oil=bad" or "socialist intent=bad".

    Not least of all, I think it is clear that Venezuela suffers from astonishingly bad institutional governance. That can occur in both capitalist and 'command and control' economies.
    Whenever socialism collapses as it always does, it always turns out to have been the wrong type of socialism and next time it will be done differently.

    Capitalism still remains the least bad option. It can always be improved obviously but it is the only system that can sustain democracy.


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  3. #152
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Socialist policies integrated into a capitalist economic framework seems to work best. If it wasn't for socialism, we wouldn't have things like social security systems, a national health service or even proper public infrastructure. The concept of taxation was born from socialism.

    The problem with having strictly free market capitalism (which the US gets ever closer towards) or an economy strictly controlled by the state, is that greed ultimately wins over those who are prepared to pull and share resources.

  4. #153
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Whenever socialism collapses as it always does, it always turns out to have been the wrong type of socialism and next time it will be done differently.

    Capitalism still remains the least bad option. It can always be improved obviously but it is the only system that can sustain democracy.


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    Really, and what about when capitalism completely collapses, as in 1929 and 2008, and demands saving i.e. socialise the losses and privatise the profit? You also equate capitalism with democracy, yet what is the democratic control of the banks for example, and what if the population democratically votes for a different system? Should they have corporate profit maximisation forced upon them against their wishes? How is that democratic? See countless examples of America overthrowing democratically elected left wing governments, for example.

    Let's not put the cart before the horse here. At present we have private banks creating 97 per cent of all 'money' from nothing for the good of their shareholders. Question is, if money is essential to survival in our society (as is undoubtedly the case) how should it be created and distributed?

    1, Economies and money systems are man-made constructs: no other animal species has it. Thus the question is what is it for and what do we want to achieve?

    2, The creation of money supply by private banks is entirely undemocratic. What if, for example, the majority of the population wants the money currently created from nothing for mortgages, and thus another housing bubble, to be instead used for hospitals, schools, social housing. What is the mechanism for bringing this about? I would argue democratic control via public banking.

    3, Public creation of the money supply means the things we consider most important are front loaded i.e. the 'money' is created specifically for the common good rather than private profit. So, instead of taxation being used at the back end of money creation, as is currently the case, the money is electronically 'created' to fully fund that which is socially beneficial. Instead of private banks creating money via loans which then trickles through the economy via private hands and is then taxed, the money is instead democratically 'created' for projects which have been voted upon and it all goes to those projects. Why should public spending be last in line, dependent upon how much a government is prepared to tax a money supply created by private banks? This system is entirely in reverse, in my opinion.

    4, I am convinced the money/banking system is an artificially created concept which merely pushes electronically created numbers from one place to another, yet we are told people must be homeless, hungry, jobless etc. It's a nonsense designed to benefit the few at the toil and expense of the many. We need a democratically run society which enables all to maximise their potential, not a contrivance which is measured against an artificial construct of the money system.

    Does this sound radical? Yes it does, but radical doesn't mean crazy, for I truly believe that the current global system which has millions starving whilst a tiny few possess unimaginable printed 'wealth' is radically at odds with what human life should be about. Accident of birth should have no bearing upon whether one dies in infancy or grand old age, yet we currently accept this as somehow just.

    It is easier for most of us to envision the end of the world than the end of capitalism, yet our modern capitalist age is a blip in human history, and over the grand sweep of human existence, however long it lasts, it will be but one chapter.
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 03-03-2019 at 01:01 AM.
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  5. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Really, and what about when capitalism completely collapses, as in 1929 and 2008, and demands saving i.e. socialise the losses and privatise the profit? You also equate capitalism with democracy, yet what is the democratic control of the banks for example, and what if the population democratically votes for a different system? Should they have corporate profit maximisation forced upon them against their wishes? How is that democratic? See countless examples of America overthrowing democratically elected left wing governments, for example.

    Let's not put the cart before the horse here. At present we have private banks creating 97 per cent of all 'money' from nothing for the good of their shareholders. Question is, if money is essential to survival in our society (as is undoubtedly the case) how should it be created and distributed?

    1, Economies and money systems are man-made constructs: no other animal species has it. Thus the question is what is it for and what do we want to achieve?

    2, The creation of money supply by private banks is entirely undemocratic. What if, for example, the majority of the population wants the money currently created from nothing for mortgages, and thus another housing bubble, to be instead used for hospitals, schools, social housing. What is the mechanism for bringing this about? I would argue democratic control via public banking.

    3, Public creation of the money supply means the things we consider most important are front loaded i.e. the 'money' is created specifically for the common good rather than private profit. So, instead of taxation being used at the back end of money creation, as is currently the case, the money is electronically 'created' to fully fund that which is socially beneficial. Instead of private banks creating money via loans which then trickles through the economy via private hands and is then taxed, the money is instead democratically 'created' for projects which have been voted upon and it all goes to those projects. Why should public spending be last in line, dependent upon how much a government is prepared to tax a money supply created by private banks? This system is entirely in reverse, in my opinion.

    4, I am convinced the money/banking system is an artificially created concept which merely pushes electronically created numbers from one place to another, yet we are told people must be homeless, hungry, jobless etc. It's a nonsense designed to benefit the few at the toil and expense of the many. We need a democratically run society which enables all to maximise their potential, not a contrivance which is measured against an artificial construct of the money system.

    Does this sound radical? Yes it does, but radical doesn't mean crazy, for I truly believe that the current global system which has millions starving whilst a tiny few possess unimaginable printed 'wealth' is radically at odds with what human life should be about. Accident of birth should have no bearing upon whether one dies in infancy or grand old age, yet we currently accept this as somehow just.

    It is easier for most of us to envision the end of the world than the end of capitalism, yet our modern capitalist age is a blip in human history, and over the grand sweep of human existence, however long it lasts, it will be but one chapter.
    Slavery has no part to play in a modern society which is what you're broadly advocating.

    Money and free markets have a vital role in rewarding folk for their labour and empowers them to learn their areas of expertise/trades/etc.

    Money is a vital cog in exchanging labour for reward and for making transactions such as the purchases of goods and services effortless. Money also affords ordinary working folk etc to make their own choices in their lives even if its merely deciding what food or drinks they wish to buy for themselves.

    Among many other attributes that money has going for it.

    Balanced free market capitalism and socialism works very well indeed.

    Communism that has the state as all controlling is the undoubted currency of dictatorships.

    No thank you to your 'radical voted upon projects'.
    Last edited by Tornadoes70; 03-03-2019 at 02:41 AM.

  6. #155
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Slavery has no part to play in a modern society which is what you're broadly advocating.

    Money and free markets have a vital role in rewarding folk for their labour and empowers them to learn their areas of expertise/trades/etc.

    Money is a vital cog in exchanging labour for reward and for making transactions such as the purchases of goods and services effortless. Money also affords ordinary working folk etc to make their own choices in their lives even if its merely deciding what food or drinks they wish to buy for themselves.

    Among many other attributes that money has going for it.

    Balanced free market capitalism and socialism works very well indeed.

    Communism that has the state as all controlling is the undoubted currency of dictatorships.

    No thank you to your 'radical voted upon projects'.
    1,How is democracy equivalent to slavery at all?? Wage slavery (control by the money system and its inevitable inhibition of talent) is exactly what I am against.

    2,Balanced free market capitalism and socialism works very well indeed'. An oxymoron: we either have control by private banks for shareholder profit or democratic control for the public good.
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 03-03-2019 at 03:05 AM.
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  7. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    1,How is democracy equivalent to slavery at all?? Wage slavery (control by the money system and its inevitable inhibition of talent) is exactly what I am against.

    2,Balanced free market capitalism and socialism works very well indeed'. An oxymoron: we either have control by private banks for shareholder profit or democratic control for the public good.
    We get it.

    You want to transfer control of money to all powerful dictatorship governments. Communism.

    Its never worked which is why folk advocate free market capitalism that includes socialist ideals.

  8. #157
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    We get it.

    You want to transfer control of money to all powerful dictatorship governments. Communism.

    Its never worked which is why folk advocate free market capitalism that includes socialist ideals.
    Erm no. Where have I suggested such a thing? In fact the creation of money under local democratic control is just the opposite. Break up the private banks and all monopolies. You seem to miss the central point: the very thing James Connolly gave his life for i.e. truly democratic socialism.
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 03-03-2019 at 03:28 AM.
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  9. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Erm no. Where have I suggested such a thing? In fact the creation of money under local democratic control is just the opposite. Break up the private banks and all monopolies. You seem to miss the central point.
    Your'e central point is to break up free market economies and replacing them with all powerful state controlled government ones that have never worked as per communism.

    You come across entirely as a communist who advocates the currency of government dictatorships to replace free market economies that incentivise labour for reward of money that can then be exchanged for other purchases of goods and services effortlessly.

  10. #159
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Your'e central point is to break up free market economies and replacing them with all powerful state controlled government ones that have never worked as per communism.

    You come across entirely as a communist who advocates the currency of government dictatorships to replace free market economies that reward exchanges of labour for reward of money as incentive.
    No it isn't; in fact it's just the opposite. Read the thread again.
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  11. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    No it isn't; in fact it's just the opposite. Read the thread again.
    No thank you.

    Its not the opposite at all in any way shape or form.

    Most folk are very happy with free market money rewarding economies that also have socialist ideology instilled into them such as the NHS, Benefits System among many other Labour inspired actions.

    What we don't need is communists spreading their cruel dictatorship mantras that have caused untold needless deaths and horrifying outcomes throughout history.

    Balanced free market capitalism including underpinning soclalist fundamentals is the fairest path for world peace than your communist 'radicalism'.

    No thank you.

  12. #161
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Your'e central point is to break up free market economies and replacing them with all powerful state controlled government ones that have never worked as per communism.

    You come across entirely as a communist who advocates the currency of government dictatorships to replace free market economies that incentivise labour for reward of money that can then be exchanged for other purchases of goods and services effortlessly.
    You fail to recognize why free market capitalism and communism are essentially the same thing.

    Free market capitalism means no regulation, which results in corporate monopolies effectively taking over and regulating those markets on their own terms. Which means the markets aren't really "free" at all.

    You favour corporate communism over state communism, which isn't really a better alternative.

    Although it's true that too much government intervention can impact competition in a negative way, the same is also true in reverse. Having an absolutely free market with no government regulation, also kills off competition.

  13. #162
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    No thank you.

    Its not the opposite at all in any way shape or form.

    Most folk are very happy with free market money rewarding economies that also have socialist ideology instilled into them such as the NHS, Benefits System among many other Labour inspired actions.

    What we don't need is communists spreading their cruel dictatorship mantras that have caused untold needless deaths and horrifying outcomes throughout history.

    Balanced free market capitalism including underpinning soclalist fundamentals is the fairest path for world peace than your communist 'radicalism'.

    No thank you.
    And who is doing so?
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  14. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    You fail to recognize why free market capitalism and communism are essentially the same thing.

    Free market capitalism means no regulation, which results in corporate monopolies effectively taking over and regulating those markets on their own terms. Which means the markets aren't really "free" at all.

    You favour corporate communism over state communism, which isn't really a better alternative.

    Although it's true that too much government intervention can impact competition in a negative way, the same is also true in reverse. Having an absolutely free market with no government regulation, also kills off competition.
    Free markets include businesses of all shapes and sizes and are operating in competition across the spectrum.

    Its no surprise that snp supporters favour communism and use obtuse absurd reasoning to attempt to deceive.

    Free markets that reward enterprise and allow businesses to flourish that include Labour inspired fundamentals are of course the fairest and ultimately rewarding outcomes for all.

    God help all of us if the snp/greens ever get their way.

  15. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    And who is doing so?
    You have been undoubtedly advocating communism in my opinion.

  16. #165
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Free markets include businesses of all shapes and sizes and are operating in competition across the spectrum.

    Its no surprise that snp supporters favour communism and use obtuse absurd reasoning to attempt to deceive.


    Free markets that reward enterprise and allow businesses to flourish that include Labour inspired fundamentals are of course the fairest and ultimately rewarding outcomes for all.

    God help all of us if the snp/greens ever get their way.
    What? I've never voted SNP in my life . I doubt the SNP would support my ideas for a moment, such is their centrism.

    You have gone full on crazy now
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  17. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    You have been undoubtedly advocating communism in my opinion.
    But not statism. I'm much more an anarchist/socialist libertarian of the Bakunin/Kropotkin/Goldman/Connolly& Wobblies school.
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 03-03-2019 at 04:06 AM.
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  18. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    What? I've never voted SNP in my life . I doubt the SNP would support my ideas for a moment, such is their centrism.

    You have gone full on crazy now
    The post you refer to was in reply to brainwashed fundamentalist snp Fifehibee.

    I'll defer to the readers to judge whose crazymaybe or whose crazydefinitely thanks. I know you'll be against free market individual deliberating though.


  19. #168
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    The post you refer to was in reply to brainwashed fundamentalist snp Fifehibee.

    I'll defer to the readers to judge whose crazymaybe or whose crazydefinitely thanks. I know you'll be against free market individual deliberating though.

    He votes SNP thus he's a Bolshevik? You're right, I will certainly be against 'free markets', as I believe the phrase to be an oxymoron. Adding the word 'free' doesn't automatically make it free i.e. without restraint so that all potential is unleashed. Many of us believe such systems only allow the unscrupulous to devour the humane: for the wolves to eat the sheep, thus destroying much talent and potential. The concept of freedom is multi-faceted, as one of my great heroes, Isiah Berlin, wrote. Should we regard freedom as merely the ability to do whatever we like? If so, where does it stop?
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  20. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    He votes SNP thus he's a Bolshevik? You're right, I will certainly be against 'free markets', as I believe the phrase to be an oxymoron. Adding the word 'free' doesn't automatically make it free i.e. without restraint so that all potential is unleashed. Many of us believe such systems only allow the unscrupulous to devour the humane: for the wolves to eat the sheep, thus destroying much talent and potential. The concept of freedom is multi-faceted, as one of my great heroes, Isiah Berlin, wrote. Should we regard freedom as merely the ability to do whatever we like? If so, where does it stop?
    As stated by myself in earlier postings you're not merely confused by the concept of money being the by product of trees but a full on 'Communist'..

    Deary me.

    God help preserve us from the athiest communists who have no conscience or religious backstop of what they do or say.

    Mon Labour!!!
    Last edited by Tornadoes70; 03-03-2019 at 05:11 AM.

  21. #170
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    As stated by myself in earlier postings you're not merely confused by the concept of money being the by product of trees but a full on 'Communist'..

    Deary me.

    God help preserve us from the athiest communists who have no conscience or religious backstop of what they do or say.

    Mon Labour!!!
    And what about the socialists in The Labour Party who would agree with me? The NHS, for example, isn't based upon money but human need. Aneurin Bevan was a true socialist.
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  22. #171
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    1, Economies and money systems are man-made constructs: no other animal species has it. Thus the question is what is it for and what do we want to achieve?
    Perhaps not economies, but there is documented evidence of animals using currency to gain food, sex, lodgings.
    Pretty much the same as us!

  23. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Free markets include businesses of all shapes and sizes and are operating in competition across the spectrum.

    Its no surprise that snp supporters favour communism and use obtuse absurd reasoning to attempt to deceive.

    Free markets that reward enterprise and allow businesses to flourish that include Labour inspired fundamentals are of course the fairest and ultimately rewarding outcomes for all.

    God help all of us if the snp/greens ever get their way.
    Thank you for providing your overly simplistic understanding on the matter.

  24. #173
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    He votes SNP thus he's a Bolshevik? You're right, I will certainly be against 'free markets', as I believe the phrase to be an oxymoron. Adding the word 'free' doesn't automatically make it free i.e. without restraint so that all potential is unleashed. Many of us believe such systems only allow the unscrupulous to devour the humane: for the wolves to eat the sheep, thus destroying much talent and potential. The concept of freedom is multi-faceted, as one of my great heroes, Isiah Berlin, wrote. Should we regard freedom as merely the ability to do whatever we like? If so, where does it stop?
    The paradox of freedom is having the freedom to take other peoples freedom away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Perhaps not economies, but there is documented evidence of animals using currency to gain food, sex, lodgings.
    Pretty much the same as us!
    To be fair, it's probably more equivalent to a bartering system, which is a bit different to a few squirrels in a tree printing loads of ten acorn notes to lend to other squirrels so they can buy their own tree.

  26. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    As stated by myself in earlier postings you're not merely confused by the concept of money being the by product of trees but a full on 'Communist'..

    Deary me.

    God help preserve us from the athiest communists who have no conscience or religious backstop of what they do or say.

    Mon Labour!!!
    Mental

  27. #176
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    I think our friend Tornadoes70 is confusing the meaning of political terms e.g. communism, socialism and free markets. From what he has posted in this thread, he seems to think I'm advocating 1970s Czechoslovakia, which couldn't be any further from the truth. The idea is to dismantle all forms on unaccountable authority, private and public, replacing them with grassroots local democracy. In fact, what I think is most interesting about this deiscussion is the capacity for human liberation, free from both oppressive statism and private tyranny. As a Labour voter, I'm sure he is familiar with Tony Benn's view that socialism is democracy, because it takes control from the wallet and gives it to the ballot box. Capitalism, particularly its neoliberal viariant which has been pre-eminent since the 1970s, reverses that and empowers private corporations to the detriment of public control. Private corporations which are not democratically accountable either to the public or their employees. This is what privatisation was all about.

    So, without going off on a tangent, lets us return to the crux of this discussion: should 97 per cent of what we call money be created and directed by private entities - banks - in their own interests. What is an economy for? So often the economy is spoken of as if it's a separate entity from society, when, of course, it is the population of a country who are the economy. It's interesting to hear a politician or economist saying a particular measure will 'harm the economy'. What do they mean by that? They should be pressed on who specifically will be harmed, as every policy is ideological, designed to advantage a particular group. Who is the policy designed to advantage and for what purpose? So, when 'the economy is harmed' who does that include?

    Almost all the money (actually electronic transfers) is created from nothing by private banks, which, as said previously, really means the banks have a government licence to do nothing more to send you and I a computer generated number which only comes into existence once the borrower agrees to re-pay said number (or rather transfer it back) plus an additional number in the form of interest. The bank gets to decide who to create the 'money' for, in its own interests. If the bank gets it all wrong and collapses, that's when the public steps in, to enable the bank to begin the process again.

    That really is a scam, and I think the title of the documentary in the original post is well chosen. So what's the alternative?

    I think the first thing to do is set out the general principles by which we wish the system to operate. Decide what we want to achieve then create the mechanisms to achieve those goals. Put the horse in front of the cart. First we need the principles and objectives:

    1, Should we have a money system at all? Let's accept we should, even if only in the name of practicality. Ergo...

    2, What should a money system be for? Here we are back to ideology. What should the money system be trying to achieve? What is an economy actually for? Well, I think it should be about human liberation: fulfillment of each person to maximise our potential in the one life we each have. Here I would point to William Morris's great essay 'Useful Work versus Useless Toil' - well a worth a read, about the nature of work and why we do what we do. This being the aim, how can we do it? Ergo....

    3, The economy and the money system cannot be allowed to dictate our lives; to force us into mundane jobs we hate; throw people on the scrap heap, surviving on a pittance because 'the market is a downturn'. A downturn for whom, and why? Here we mistakenly put the cart before the horse. It is we who are the economy and who should control it, not be the controlled. People should not be blown around by forces over which they have no control. How do we do that? Ergo....

    4, Democracy. A mechanism by which the economy and its concomitant money system are under democratic control, accountable to the public. We decide the purposes for which money is created, not private banks. The principle is democracy, the method is public banking which is locally accountable and transparent. No more housing bubbles and property boom and busts. The current system has left over a million people in the UK living in temporary accommodation; children growing up in bed and breakfasts. Not acceptable. The precise mechanism for democratic control of the banking system would of course require careful consideration and ideas from everywhere; first we need to agree on the principle. Then there's the matter of industrial democracy....

    5, Control over one's productive life requires workplace democracy: the men and women on the shop floor, factory floor, office floor democratically voting upon what is made/done, how it's done and how the rewards should be allocated. No more hierarchical private tyrannies; of orders cascading down the chain of command, with the majority having no control in the workplace. Again the principle is human liberation, the method is democracy.



    I think the documentary makes some fundamental points about how we are organised in society. What we call a democracy is actually very limited. Putting a cross on a ballot paper every few years is, we are told, freedom. However, as has been touched upon in previous posts, that isn't the case, and what is freedom anyway? Whose freedom and for what ends? To me freedom must mean the maximum possible control of each individual over their own destiny, and it seems clear that 'free markets' as they presently operate don't deliver that. Freedom for the wolves to eat the sheep isn't for me. Millions of people get up every morning to go to a workplace they hate, just to obtain enough of our money system to keep body and soul together, feeling the have no control over their destiny. Millions of others have no work to go to, but are told it's the inevitable machinations of the system. That isn't my idea of freedom.

    Anyway, it's an interesting discussion, though just a starting point for countless ideas which cover all aspects of human life; interconnected, symbiotic, each having cause and effect upon how we live.
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 05-03-2019 at 04:44 PM.
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