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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Money: The greatest scam in history.

    Following on from a post I made in the Labour Party thread, here's a good explanation of the system which rules our lives; a system which, we are told, is the meaning of our lives, yet is never discussed and never explained. Instead there is a tacist and unquestioning attitude that this money system is unalterable and entirely natural. The alchemy of the system should provoke serious questions, yet we continue to base our lives around it. 'Sound money'; 'no magic money tree'; 'financially literate' - all are phrases thrown around, yet, when did you ever hear a discussion of the fundamentals of said system? It's bizarre. Take a look and think about it.

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  3. #2
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    Oddly enough, Iím actually studying the subject of money just now as part of a module. How it came about, how it has developed, how it (or more specifically, how debt) makes the ďworld go roundĒ etc...

    One academic (Michael Sandel) has a firm viewpoint that the rapid changes in the role and meaning of money result in the increasing commodification of too many areas of our lives. The market economy has now grown arms and legs and become so integrated in our lives we are now a market society, where practically anything is up for sale. This is intensifying inequality and if not checked, could become disastrous.

    I agree with him and itís bizarre to think that this system, which involves exchanges of things with absolutely no physical value, dictates practically every aspect of our lives.

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Oddly enough, Iím actually studying the subject of money just now as part of a module. How it came about, how it has developed, how it (or more specifically, how debt) makes the ďworld go roundĒ etc...

    One academic (Michael Sandel) has a firm viewpoint that the rapid changes in the role and meaning of money result in the increasing commodification of too many areas of our lives. The market economy has now grown arms and legs and become so integrated in our lives we are now a market society, where practically anything is up for sale. This is intensifying inequality and if not checked, could become disastrous.

    I agree with him and itís bizarre to think that this system, which involves exchanges of things with absolutely no physical value, dictates practically every aspect of our lives.
    There is a wonderful book, 'Where Does Money Come From', by Josh Ryan-Collins, Tony Greenham, Richard Werner and Andrew Jackson. We live our lives in accordance with an artificial construct, but fool ourselves into thinking its laws are as natural as gravity or molecular structure, when this is entirely wrong. Economics is a man made construct - only human beings use a money system - yet it controls our societies and dictates how we live our lives. How many of us ever ponder what life would be like without a money system?

    An excellent documentary, based upon the book I mention. Might help you, Pete.

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    First Team Breakthrough G15 Hibs's Avatar
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    The first three chapters of 'Capital' are fascinating on where the concept comes from. Bit of a slog mind!

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    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Euchrid View Post
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    The first three chapters of 'Capital' are fascinating on where the concept comes from. Bit of a slog mind!
    Indeed, not light reading but one of the most important works ever written.
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  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member GreenLake's Avatar
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    There is nothing to see here, move along.

  8. #7
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLake View Post
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    There is nothing to see here, move along.


    Far more important things happening in the world. Is X-Factor back on?

    The 97 per cent owned documentary should be watched by everybody. It should be compulsory for every child in their final year of high school.
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Oddly enough, Iím actually studying the subject of money just now as part of a module. How it came about, how it has developed, how it (or more specifically, how debt) makes the ďworld go roundĒ etc...

    One academic (Michael Sandel) has a firm viewpoint that the rapid changes in the role and meaning of money result in the increasing commodification of too many areas of our lives. The market economy has now grown arms and legs and become so integrated in our lives we are now a market society, where practically anything is up for sale. This is intensifying inequality and if not checked, could become disastrous.

    I agree with him and itís bizarre to think that this system, which involves exchanges of things with absolutely no physical value, dictates practically every aspect of our lives.
    I done that module last year. Thought it was enjoyable overall, and found Michael Sandel interesting.

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adhibs View Post
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    I done that module last year. Thought it was enjoyable overall, and found Michael Sandel interesting.
    Well youíd better clear your PM inbox. 😁

    To be honest Iím loving the module. Itís very broad based and a good platform for so many subjects but Iím maybe starting to overthink it. Fascinating way of looking at the world.

    Started reading capital but got bogged down. Iíll stick with the bullet points and the idiots version before I move onto the philosophy part of my studies 😆

  11. #10
    @hibs.net private member Beefster's Avatar
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    Itís not just money. I read Sapiens not that long ago and the author argues that pretty much every law/rule/system that we live our lives by is just a shared myth.

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Well youíd better clear your PM inbox. 😁

    To be honest Iím loving the module. Itís very broad based and a good platform for so many subjects but Iím maybe starting to overthink it. Fascinating way of looking at the world.

    Started reading capital but got bogged down. Iíll stick with the bullet points and the idiots version before I move onto the philosophy part of my studies 😆
    I would suggest a study guide to accompany Capital, because it's easy to lose the wood for the trees in such a detailed study. The best I have come across dates back to the 1970s, 'The Structure of Marx's World View', by John McMurty. It goes through all the key ideas in plain English and is excellent.
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    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    I'm learning a lot about this, using my internet connection and laptop that I paid for with paper rectangles.

    In all seriousness though, what I find astonishing is the sheer volume of people who actually buy into the lie that there is a world wide debt crisis that we all need to pay for.

    All money comes into our posession through the central banking network. But in order for the money to be obtained from the bank, it has to be borrowed. Borrowing money comes with interest that then needs to be paid back. But in order for the interest to be covered, more money needs to be printed, which then results in more money being borrowed from the bank to pay back the interest, resulting in even higher interest debt taking its place.

    There's more debt than money that physically exists, so the only option is to print new money and borrow that. Which ultimately results in that debt figure getting even higher. It can only ever go up and can never go down.

  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    I'm learning a lot about this, using my internet connection and laptop that I paid for with paper rectangles.

    In all seriousness though, what I find astonishing is the sheer volume of people who actually buy into the lie that there is a world wide debt crisis that we all need to pay for.

    All money comes into our posession through the central banking network. But in order for the money to be obtained from the bank, it has to be borrowed. Borrowing money comes with interest that then needs to be paid back. But in order for the interest to be covered, more money needs to be printed, which then results in more money being borrowed from the bank to pay back the interest, resulting in even higher interest debt taking its place.

    There's more debt than money that physically exists, so the only option is to print new money and borrow that. Which ultimately results in that debt figure getting even higher. It can only ever go up and can never go down.
    Only three per cent of U.K. 'wealth' is currency printed/minted by the central bank; 97 per cent is debt created by commercial banks. If you take out a loan, the economy 'grows' by that amount, though the money doesn't exist; it has been invented on a computer. If you haven't watched the documentary above, give it a watch.
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  15. #14
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Only three per cent of U.K. 'wealth' is currency printed/minted by the central bank; 97 per cent is debt created by commercial banks. If you take out a loan, the economy 'grows' by that amount, though the money doesn't exist; it has been invented on a computer. If you haven't watched the documentary above, give it a watch.
    My point is about the interest on that cash. Whether it's physical or digital. All money carries interest, therefore the interest can never be paid off, because it requires more borrowing, which results in more interest. It's a never ending cycle of ever increasing interest.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Well you’d better clear your PM inbox. ��

    To be honest I’m loving the module. It’s very broad based and a good platform for so many subjects but I’m maybe starting to overthink it. Fascinating way of looking at the world.

    Started reading capital but got bogged down. I’ll stick with the bullet points and the idiots version before I move onto the philosophy part of my studies ��

    haha, feel free if you have any questions. although my memory is pretty brutal, so doubt ill be any help

    I'm now doing DD213 - Environment and Society. It builds on some of the ideas and concepts of DD103, and have to say I'm enjoying the familiarity.
    Last edited by adhibs; 11-11-2018 at 09:23 PM.

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    'No magic money tree'. Then what is quantitative easing other than the government creating money from nothing? Since 2008 hundreds of billions of pounds has been created from nothing, in order to keep the banks afloat. In the USA the figure is around $26 trillion. This only 'exists' because the central bank says it does, hence confidence in the system is everything. When confidence collapses, the whole system collapses because the myth can no longer sustain itself.

    In the eighties Thatcher used to say that government needed to work like a household budget, which is nonsense, as international finance doesn't work anything like a household budget. How many households can print currency or create loans? You still hear the mantra of 'living within our means', which is either (a) ignorance of the system or (b) willful misrepresentation. The documentary above and the accompanying book (well worth reading) argue that in the main it is ignorance by politicians about what money actually is and how it is created.

    The vast majority of us are not aware of the mythical basis of the money system. Instead we take it on face value and don't question it.
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  18. #17
    Coaching Staff lyonhibs's Avatar
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdF76QhVEFE&t=0m22s

    A slightly more light hearted look at things, but raises an interesting point that merits a bit of thought IMO.

  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    This is a succinct explanation of the myth of the money system:

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  20. #19
    Good book worth reading is, The Creature from Jekyll Island. It's about America coming of the gold standard and all the shenanigans.

  21. #20
    Coaching Staff Jones28's Avatar
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    Heard on the news today about a construction company in SE England posting profit decreases of 25% - they only made about £400 million.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Following on from a post I made in the Labour Party thread, here's a good explanation of the system which rules our lives; a system which, we are told, is the meaning of our lives, yet is never discussed and never explained. Instead there is a tacist and unquestioning attitude that this money system is unalterable and entirely natural. The alchemy of the system should provoke serious questions, yet we continue to base our lives around it. 'Sound money'; 'no magic money tree'; 'financially literate' - all are phrases thrown around, yet, when did you ever hear a discussion of the fundamentals of said system? It's bizarre. Take a look and think about it.

    Money is one of the best things ever invented and working harder to make money keeps me focused and sane. Anyone can start from the bottom and become rich especially with the internet. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just making excuses and refuses to go out their way to learn the skills or pay to learn from someone making money.

    Fiat currencies always hyperinflate and collapse but the idea of a tool to get things done is necessary. We can't work for pigs or food when we have such abundance. There needs to be something like money. Imagine your boss saying "yeah i'll give you this house if you work 5 years" and then your boss leaves for Spain or something. We need a form of money.

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    There's a saying (or perhaps i've just invented it). But if you're prepared to give up time for money, then you're giving up the most valuable thing of all.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    There's a saying (or perhaps i've just invented it). But if you're prepared to give up time for money, then you're giving up the most valuable thing of all.
    Thatís why people need to spend their time building residual income streams as you put the work in once and get paid again and again

  25. #24
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColintonHibs View Post
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    Thatís why people need to spend their time building residual income streams as you put the work in once and get paid again and again
    Yet, if everybody did this, nobody would be any better off. They would all be wasting their lives trying to out do one another, rather than just enjoying every moment of the precious limited time they have.

  26. #25
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Thanks to the OP fascinating film

  27. #26
    Money's one of the greatest inventions of all time. its flexible and normally rewards those who work hard for the greater good. Those who criticise it are dictators and hard of understanding.

    The snp are busy attempting to deprive those at the bottom of society while rewarding those at the top end. I'm just back from down south where they're enjoying still paying at least 4 pounds a litre bottle of spirits cheaper than those in Scotland directly because of the snp. A ludicrous situation that mostly effects the poorest in Scotland. Get these self serving puritans snp to history.

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Money's one of the greatest inventions of all time. its flexible and normally rewards those who work hard for the greater good. Those who criticise it are dictators and hard of understanding.

    The snp are busy attempting to deprive those at the bottom of society while rewarding those at the top end. I'm just back from down south where they're enjoying still paying at least 4 pounds a litre bottle of spirits cheaper than those in Scotland directly because of the snp. A ludicrous situation that mostly effects the poorest in Scotland. Get these self serving puritans snp to history.
    Perhaps, but the pertient questions are: where does money actually come from and who controls it?

    Well, a fact not commonly known is that almost all the 'money' in the system literally appears from nowhere in the form of debt, created by private corporations i.e. banks, which are rentiers. Any loan, mortgage etc is nothing more than the 'borrower's' promise to re-pay with interest something that only exists by common agreement, but not in reality. The bank puts a number in the account of the borrower; that number represents nothing but itself i.e. there is nothing behind it other than the borrower's promise to transfer the number back, plus a larger number in the form of interest.

    In essence the system exists upon a mutual and tacit agreement to suspend our disbelief. It isn't actually real. This sounds bonkers, but it's true.
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  29. #28
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tornadoes70 View Post
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    Money's one of the greatest inventions of all time. its flexible and normally rewards those who work hard for the greater good. Those who criticise it are dictators and hard of understanding.

    The snp are busy attempting to deprive those at the bottom of society while rewarding those at the top end. I'm just back from down south where they're enjoying still paying at least 4 pounds a litre bottle of spirits cheaper than those in Scotland directly because of the snp. A ludicrous situation that mostly effects the poorest in Scotland. Get these self serving puritans snp to history.
    It's a policy motivated by health, not money, to bring in the minimum pricing on alcohol. It's not exactly at an unfair level either is it, £20 for a litre of spirit. The tinkering of policies around alcohol has had a positive impact on alcohol-related death, although they are still the highest in the UK so I'd expect more to come on that front.


    I'm curious though, as someone who sees the SNP as gladly taking the poor and rewarding the rich what is your take on the widening higher income tax gap between Scotland and rUK?:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-46522968

    If you earn less than the average wage, you pay less tax; if you earn more, you pay more (with a reasonably substantial jump at £43/44k at that). These facts seem at odds with your rhetoric?
    Mon the Hibs.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Perhaps, but the pertient questions are: where does money actually come from and who controls it?

    Well, a fact not commonly known is that almost all the 'money' in the system literally appears from nowhere in the form of debt, created by private corporations i.e. banks, which are rentiers. Any loan, mortgage etc is nothing more than the 'borrower's' promise to re-pay with interest something that only exists by common agreement, but not in reality. The bank puts a number in the account of the borrower; that number represents nothing but itself i.e. there is nothing behind it other than the borrower's promise to transfer the number back, plus a larger number in the form of interest.

    In essence the system exists upon a mutual and tacit agreement to suspend our disbelief. It isn't actually real. This sounds bonkers, but it's true.
    I know yourr into philosophy, and its a very pbilosophical question... if both parties believe something is true,and real, does it become so?

    But surely, at least initially, money was basically a universal way of representing value, normally based on gold, jewels, land etc ie something tangible?

    I accept that modern banking is far removed from that, but the money is still based on something (even if it is crap, but thats another discussion). I get loaned a mortgage based on my income (my value) and the value of my property. The bank then borrow that from markets, and the whole thing goes around.

    I know people point to QE as creating money (which it essentially is) but by doing so there are major economic effects, normally considered downsides (inflation etc)

    As with much of the capitalist system we have, it is tye worst option for us to live with, except for all the other options that we have tried.

    Thats not to say there isnt a better way for the future... but let's hear it.

    Ultimately apart from the basics of nature, everything is a human construct. Politics for example is a human construct, parliament is literally only bricks and mortar, with zero power or authority, but for what we collectively give it.

    There is no such thing as a human right, but for an idea created by humans. Murder is only a crime because we decide it is. Money and our economic system is similar.

    But ultimately, i can take the note out of my wallet and give it to someone as an exchange of value for a good or service. It is real, because we have made it real.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 13-12-2018 at 07:43 AM.

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    It's a policy motivated by health, not money, to bring in the minimum pricing on alcohol. It's not exactly at an unfair level either is it, £20 for a litre of spirit. The tinkering of policies around alcohol has had a positive impact on alcohol-related death, although they are still the highest in the UK so I'd expect more to come on that front.


    I'm curious though, as someone who sees the SNP as gladly taking the poor and rewarding the rich what is your take on the widening higher income tax gap between Scotland and rUK?:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...itics-46522968

    If you earn less than the average wage, you pay less tax; if you earn more, you pay more (with a reasonably substantial jump at £43/44k at that). These facts seem at odds with your rhetoric?
    The snp acted as puritan moralist dictators against the poorest folk in society when seeking to directly deprive them of affordability of alcohol. The middle classes and the richest in society won't have been overwhelmingly affected by the significant price increases that was a direct hit against only the least well off in society.

    I saved over £70 when buying in bulk in England prior to returning to Scotland. It won't alter the amount I drink as I'll consume the same over a long period of time however I would have had to fork out the not inconsiderable extra £70 here in Scotland for the same amount of alcohol. A ludicrous and puritanical policy attack on the least well off in Scotland from the snp. I'll definitely be taking a trip to Carlisle every few months as the savings when buying in bulk are well worth it.

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