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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    The new stadium they're building in SF, just along from AT&T Park is quite incredible. It'll be a real boost to the area and they've paid for it themselves, which is a refreshing change in US Sports.
    Aren't the Warriors owned by a hedge fund? So I imagine that's why they've built it as it's an investment. However, far better than using tax payers money!


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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LustForLeith View Post
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    Iím clearly no expert but is there a shift now with players who are positionless? Is Anthony Davis like that?

    I think theres definitely less Ďdefinedí positions, with big men often seen (and almost expected) to be shooting threeís, whilst at the same time we're seeing guys like draymond green playing center when not so long ago, someone his size would be a small forward.

    Anthony Davis is one of this new breed certainly, although he generally does play center, but is capable of shooting out to the three point line, and defending on the perimeter comfortably. Others like kristaps porzingis, Karl Anthony-towns, Lauri markannen, Durant are also in this ilk. Going back a few years, Chris bosh and dirk nowitzki probably started this shift, even LeBron has redefined positions, heís comfortably capable of playing all 5 positions at a high level. Up until about 7-10 years ago, players were pigeon holed into one position, two at a push, and never encouraged to explore their boundaries. Now, weíre seeing players operating in places on court that fit their skills, or in some cases, being taken off the court because their skills donít fit the modern style of play. Old fashioned centers are a dying breed, and often at the end of the rotation because modern big men like Davis are overwhelming them.

    Theres also a shooting shift shift thatís been happening for a few years, where the likes of curry, Lillard, Kyrie Irving, klay Thomson, Durant, are rewriting the books in terms of what efficient scoring is, what is seen as effective shooting range, and asking questions of defences that have never been considered before.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    I think theres definitely less Ďdefinedí positions, with big men often seen (and almost expected) to be shooting threeís, whilst at the same time we're seeing guys like draymond green playing center when not so long ago, someone his size would be a small forward.

    Anthony Davis is one of this new breed certainly, although he generally does play center, but is capable of shooting out to the three point line, and defending on the perimeter comfortably. Others like kristaps porzingis, Karl Anthony-towns, Lauri markannen, Durant are also in this ilk. Going back a few years, Chris bosh and dirk nowitzki probably started this shift, even LeBron has redefined positions, heís comfortably capable of playing all 5 positions at a high level. Up until about 7-10 years ago, players were pigeon holed into one position, two at a push, and never encouraged to explore their boundaries. Now, weíre seeing players operating in places on court that fit their skills, or in some cases, being taken off the court because their skills donít fit the modern style of play. Old fashioned centers are a dying breed, and often at the end of the rotation because modern big men like Davis are overwhelming them.

    Theres also a shooting shift shift thatís been happening for a few years, where the likes of curry, Lillard, Kyrie Irving, klay Thomson, Durant, are rewriting the books in terms of what efficient scoring is, what is seen as effective shooting range, and asking questions of defences that have never been considered before.
    Cheers.

    Iím getting well into the sport, itís taking my kind off Easter Road!

    How does the current era of basketball match up with previous ones? The game defiantly picked up an interest with the likes of Jordan v Bird for instance.

  5. #34
    Not really a fan of the NBA but I'm a big fan of trainers which goes part and parcel with the NBA. I remember a big hoo ha with Lavar Ball a year or so ago with his big baller brand.I know he tipped his son Lonzo to be the next big thing just wondered how he's getting on?any good?

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LustForLeith View Post
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    Cheers.

    Iím getting well into the sport, itís taking my kind off Easter Road!

    How does the current era of basketball match up with previous ones? The game defiantly picked up an interest with the likes of Jordan v Bird for instance.

    Horses for courses tbh mate, a bit like trying to compare football in the 60s and 70s to now. Different styles, physical condition of the players totally different, even the footwear was archaic compared to today, from the 90s forward the footwear advancements have been significant, such cushioning, styling, branding, structure of the shoe.

    the popularity of the sport has grown exponentially though. Magic Johnson played in the 1980 NBA finals as a rookie, and all of the games were on tape delay across the states, none of it was shown live. Magic and bird are generally credited with turning the league into something exciting and engaging, along with Dr J, Moses Malone, etc. Jordan arrived in 84, along with Charles Barkley, with Patrick Ewing and several other big names soon after. Jordan was electric from day one, amazing to watch as a player finding his way in the league, til he went on his run of 6 titles in 8 years in the 90s. The 90s themselves wee a bit of a dirge of negative defensive basketball, although massive names like Shaq, Kobe, Iverson, Garnett, Duncan, and more came into the league. After some dire play in the early 2000s, the league made some progressive changes to rules around defending, handchecking, and defensive structure, leading to more offensive players coming to the fore, ultimately leading to today with the likes of Steph and Durant. Equally, thereís been an evolution in both how defensive play and offensive strategies are deployed, with much more complexity and intricacy involved, and in players being utilised in ways that support their skill set rather than their height.


    sorry, Iím a bit of a nerd hahaha

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibs#1 View Post
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    Not really a fan of the NBA but I'm a big fan of trainers which goes part and parcel with the NBA. I remember a big hoo ha with Lavar Ball a year or so ago with his big baller brand.I know he tipped his son Lonzo to be the next big thing just wondered how he's getting on?any good?

    Hes a decent player, an excellent passer of the ball but a poor shooter. His dad is a wahoo, and will likely end up causing his son bother before his career is over. There been some rumours that the lakers have tried to corall the father somewhat, without much success.

    hes an LA boy, playing at his boyhood team, where he would possibly have developed into a very good player. Now with LeBron being there, his window of opportunity has shrunk rapidly, the lakers will do whatever they need to appease LeBron, and work to his timetable, which may mean lonzo gets traded or pushed down the pecking order and doesnít get the development heíll need.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    Horses for courses tbh mate, a bit like trying to compare football in the 60s and 70s to now. Different styles, physical condition of the players totally different, even the footwear was archaic compared to today, from the 90s forward the footwear advancements have been significant, such cushioning, styling, branding, structure of the shoe.

    the popularity of the sport has grown exponentially though. Magic Johnson played in the 1980 NBA finals as a rookie, and all of the games were on tape delay across the states, none of it was shown live. Magic and bird are generally credited with turning the league into something exciting and engaging, along with Dr J, Moses Malone, etc. Jordan arrived in 84, along with Charles Barkley, with Patrick Ewing and several other big names soon after. Jordan was electric from day one, amazing to watch as a player finding his way in the league, til he went on his run of 6 titles in 8 years in the 90s. The 90s themselves wee a bit of a dirge of negative defensive basketball, although massive names like Shaq, Kobe, Iverson, Garnett, Duncan, and more came into the league. After some dire play in the early 2000s, the league made some progressive changes to rules around defending, handchecking, and defensive structure, leading to more offensive players coming to the fore, ultimately leading to today with the likes of Steph and Durant. Equally, thereís been an evolution in both how defensive play and offensive strategies are deployed, with much more complexity and intricacy involved, and in players being utilised in ways that support their skill set rather than their height.


    sorry, Iím a bit of a nerd hahaha
    No need to apologise, itís quite interesting!

    I might have picked this up wrong but wasnít there a players strike at one point? Was it because Bird could be offered a better deal by any team other than Boston and he wasnít happy about this? As a result players went on strike for ages. Probably picked this up wrong.

    I remember hearing that Jordan for awhile, wasnít the best player player in basketball, he wasnít even the best paid player st the Bulls. He made an absolute fortune from Nike and it was when the new rules came in after the players went on strike that he got a better wage.

    Itís probbaly rubbish!

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LustForLeith View Post
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    No need to apologise, itís quite interesting!

    I might have picked this up wrong but wasnít there a players strike at one point? Was it because Bird could be offered a better deal by any team other than Boston and he wasnít happy about this? As a result players went on strike for ages. Probably picked this up wrong.

    I remember hearing that Jordan for awhile, wasnít the best player player in basketball, he wasnít even the best paid player st the Bulls. He made an absolute fortune from Nike and it was when the new rules came in after the players went on strike that he got a better wage.

    Itís probbaly rubbish!

    I dont *think* there was a strike/lock out when Jordan was playing, there was one right after he retired for the second time, in 1998, which ended up with a much shortened season (50 games iirc, down from the usual 82, with no preseason games either). Thereís been another lockout since then also. These days however, the league and the players union are very much in close contact and working closely hand in hand. The scale of money coming into the NBA just now is unprecedented, both the players and their union, and the league itself are very happy to work to their mutual benefit rather than split hairs and rock the boat.

    When Jordan first came into the league, he was tagged as a player who was more driven by his own stats than winning, and that he neeed Phil Jackson to guide him to become more of a team player, which then led to him becoming the juggernaut and ultimately the GOAT. When you look at his individual stats and advanced metrics though, that argument doesnít really add up, his stats from say 87-93 donít vary a great deal, and ultimately its more a case of his teammates getting better (therefore meaning the other team had more to deal with than just jordan), better coaching provided by Jackson, and good drafting of new young players, and good trades (of which Jordan wasnít always happy with). Kind of comical in hindsight given heíd won a college title, and an Olympic gold medal as a collegiate player in 84. The Ďstats selfishí thing was more lazy journalism, and an unfair comparison to bird and magic who were different players, and a tag that was difficult to shake off for Jordan until he was holding multiple titles and the press began to change their rhetoric about him. Equally, magic was considered a coach killer when he was younger (his coach got sacked in a move publicly perceived to be all about appeasing him), and was a defensive sieve. Bird was labelled as slow and unathletic, and only where he was a token white in an increasingly black dominated sport. Now theyíre both feted, as is Jordan.

    In terms of pay, the contract structure was different to nowadays, where itís actually pretty straightforward for journalists etc to predict what players could be paid in future deals, and the lengths of contracts are strictly governed. When Jordan was drafted, players could be paid silly money right from the off (now a rookie contract is linked to your draft position and monetary value clearly laid out), and often for different lengths of time. Jordan was (relative to the leagues top players) probably underpaid in the run up to and during the first 3peat, with a number of lesser players earning more (ironically in part due Jordanís popularity and style increasing interest and money pouring into the league). For example, Scottie pipped signed something crazy like an 8 year deal in the late 80s, and within 4 years the leagueís money had increased massively, money being paid to players signing deals later on was much more, even though they were average players not coming close to winning titles.

    during the second 3peat, he was the highest paid player in the league, in fact I think itís only in the last 3 years or so that the figures he was earning have been surpassed as an all time high single season figure. The lockout just after he retired began to usher in an era where there was caps placed on what a player can earn, based on league tenure, a teams willingness to go to the max level for any given player, how many max contracts a team already had, and that players performance in relation to being selected all-NBA, etc.

    You are correct in that his earnings from Nike eclipsed his earnings with the bulls, bearing in mind that thereís a entire Nike brand based purely around him. He still earns a vast amount from his relationship with Nike even now.

  10. #39
    PSG have their away kit made by Jordan and not Nike these days. Obviously Nike owns Jordan brand but a bit shocked to see it.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    You are correct in that his earnings from Nike eclipsed his earnings with the bulls, bearing in mind that thereís a entire Nike brand based purely around him. He still earns a vast amount from his relationship with Nike even now.
    I once watched a documentary with his agent who had put together the deal with Nike. He said Nike told him if they sold $1m of Air Jordan's they'd be ecstatic but believed they'd sell like 100,000 total

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haymaker View Post
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    I once watched a documentary with his agent who had put together the deal with Nike. He said Nike told him if they sold $1m of Air Jordan's they'd be ecstatic but believed they'd sell like 100,000 total



    Nike were still seen very much as an athletics sports company, and were trying to break into a new market (sports sponsorship was in its infancy, Converse were the biggest player in the basketball market, but they had no idea of how sports sponsorship and branding could go, and werenít doing much more than getting magic and bird in the occasional advert).

    As youíve said, not even Nike saw what the future would hold, although they did see early on what kind of appeal Jordan had, and embraced that, and put their weight and money behind it, bringing in the likes of spike lee to direct Jordanís adverts.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    Nike were still seen very much as an athletics sports company, and were trying to break into a new market (sports sponsorship was in its infancy, Converse were the biggest player in the basketball market, but they had no idea of how sports sponsorship and branding could go, and werenít doing much more than getting magic and bird in the occasional advert).

    As youíve said, not even Nike saw what the future would hold, although they did see early on what kind of appeal Jordan had, and embraced that, and put their weight and money behind it, bringing in the likes of spike lee to direct Jordanís adverts.
    Cheers for the last two posts, really informative.

    I think a problem in the UK is in the late 80ís and 90ís basketball was pretty hard to come by. For me it was playing computer games and in being a film geek Spike Lee. Sportswear played a massive part as well where it almost became irrelevant that Jordan actually played a sport!

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    Nike were still seen very much as an athletics sports company, and were trying to break into a new market (sports sponsorship was in its infancy, Converse were the biggest player in the basketball market, but they had no idea of how sports sponsorship and branding could go, and werenít doing much more than getting magic and bird in the occasional advert).

    As youíve said, not even Nike saw what the future would hold, although they did see early on what kind of appeal Jordan had, and embraced that, and put their weight and money behind it, bringing in the likes of spike lee to direct Jordanís adverts.
    that Nike executive must be very happy s/he was wrong with that prediction!

    Put Nike on the map sports wise and opened up so much more revenue to players.

  15. #44
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    Not NBA but did anyone see Zion Williams debut at Duke last night? Wow.

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by LustForLeith View Post
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    Cheers for the last two posts, really informative.

    I think a problem in the UK is in the late 80’s and 90’s basketball was pretty hard to come by. For me it was playing computer games and in being a film geek Spike Lee. Sportswear played a massive part as well where it almost became irrelevant that Jordan actually played a sport!

    No probs mate, happy to chat NBA all day

    i agree, mid-90s channel 4 used to have a programme on a Sunday morning, but watching NBA basketball in the UK has never been easy.

    i used to play a lot at school and for a bit after, would love to play again (no idea where you could tbh lol), not sure if the knees would cope that well but you never know

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