Brutal Scotland, absolutely brutal

[Golden Bear]

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I’d liked to have seen John Collins given the managers job a few years back, and he might have been the one to adopt a more modern outlook to the national team and the general set up. I suspect his time has now gone.

However I still think JC could, and would do a good job.

[West lower]

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Doesn't work like that. National league doesn't directly relate, plenty of average leagues with very good national sides.

The national team should set the example.

Of course it matters who is running the clubs. This is where the young players learn their trade. Being taught to win through high ball tactics is not going to help them at international level. We could have Alex Ferguson as national manager, but it wouldn’t matter if the players are being coached week in week out by imposters for coaches.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Of course it matters who is running the clubs. This is where the young players learn their trade. Being taught to win through high ball tactics is not going to help them at international level. We could have Alex Ferguson as national manager, but it wouldn’t matter if the players are being coached week in week out by imposters for coaches.

Those guys are not imposters. They just have a different outlook on the game and it has been somewhat successful for all of them. Would we complain if Scotland won a Euros like Greece did?

I wouldn't mind Scotland being direct, 2 wingers, a big forward, dynamic midfielders. Its about having a proper plan, teaching them it and sticking to it.

It would be nice to play football but we aren't passing Spain or Germany off the park no matter how hard we try.

[basehibby]

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Good try, but that's definitely wrong.

The second "either" is superfluous and makes the sentence clumsy.

So - it's either eithers or either if either either is superfluous.

[brog]

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I don't think that's the cause of our failings at national level.

It's certainly bad in Scotland, but other countries aren't exactly overflowing with their variety of league champions.

It was 1984/85 when a team other than Celtc or Rangers won the Scottish league. Since then Celtc have won it 16 times and Rangers 17 and Aberdeen once, obviously.

In the same time period, Barcelona and Real Madrid have won 30 of the available 34 league titles.

In Portugal Benfica or Porto have won it 32 times.

Even in Germany, Bayern Munich and Dortmund have won the league 26 times out of the last 34, with 2 clubs winning it once and 2 twice.

In England, 10 different clubs have won the title in that time with only Manchester United in double figures (13). No other team has won more than 5 times. (I wonder if the variety of winners one of the reasons people think it's the best league in the world.)

So, England have a greater diversity of success, but their national side still fails.

Other countries, with a similar duopoly to Scotland, have won the WC and the Euros.

Very interesting D but the stats are a bit misleading. There was a 13 year period when only Blackburn, funded by Jack Walker, interrupted the Arsenal/Man U duopoly. Before that there was a 12 year period when only Arsenal, Liverpool & Everton won the league. The Leicester success was unique but the recent successes of Man C & Chelsea were like Blackburn's based on being bankrolled by billionaires. The other major difference in England is that English players are a minority in all the top teams.

[Hibbyradge]

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Very interesting D but the stats are a bit misleading. There was a 13 year period when only Blackburn, funded by Jack Walker, interrupted the Arsenal/Man U duopoly. Before that there was a 12 year period when only Arsenal, Liverpool & Everton won the league. The Leicester success was unique but the recent successes of Man C & Chelsea were like Blackburn's based on being bankrolled by billionaires. The other major difference in England is that English players are a minority in all the top teams.

I'm not sure what point you're making.

I was considering a post by PatHead which said that the biggest problem with Scottish football is it revolves around Rantic.

I decided to go back as far as 84/85 because that was the last time a team other than the uglies won the league. It doesn't really matter what happened before then because about 3 generations of player have been and gone since then and the league has changed a couple of times too.

What happened before that can't be blamed for the current state of Scottish football which is what I started out looking at.

[Paisley Hibby]

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The point is we don't actually know if these players are good enough because they're being played all over, never consistently, with the wrong instructions, wrong formation.

A better manager could get more from them. You can't really tell me every team at the world cup or Euros had better players than Scotland? No chance. Albania? Northern Ireland? Hungary? All qualified in 2016. Scotland had hopeless management who couldn't get most from the players so they didn't. That's what it boils down to.

Everyone thought Hibs had rubbish players for years. We actually had rubbish managers and coaching staff. I remember outrage on here when Stubbs was signing coaches instead of players in his first season. Reality is that exactly how it should be. Players come and go. Proper coaching set ups last year's.

Spot on. Thankfully Lewis Stevenson and Paul Hanlon got the chance to show what great players they are once we got some decent Managers/coaches in. And look at how Martin Boyle, Barker and Scott Allan progressed/performed under our system. The Scottish international set up needs to get away from has been club managers and move with the times.

[brog]

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I'm not sure what point you're making.

I was considering a post by PatHead which said that the biggest problem with Scottish football is it revolves around Rantic.

I decided to go back as far as 84/85 because that was the last time a team other than the uglies won the league. It doesn't really matter what happened before then because about 3 generations of player have been and gone since then and the league has changed a couple of times too.

What happened before that can't be blamed for the current state of Scottish football which is what I started out looking at.

I only meant that the fact that 10 different teams have won the top league in the last 34 years is a bit misleading in that within those 34 years there have been lengthy periods where only 2 or 3 teams have won the league. In other words the top English League is nowhere near as competitive as they would have us believe. It wasn't a criticism, only a comment.

[Hibbyradge]

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I only meant that the fact that 10 different teams have won the top league in the last 34 years is a bit misleading in that within those 34 years there have been lengthy periods where only 2 or 3 teams have won the league. In other words the top English League is nowhere near as competitive as they would have us believe. It wasn't a criticism, only a comment.

That was a bi-product of my research into the other leagues, but no matter what way you want to look at it, since 84/85 the English league has been more competitive than the 4 other leagues I highlighted, all of which have had lengthy periods of only 2 teams winning.

For further comparison, the French league has also had 10 winners in that time, 3 of which had "done a Leicester" and won it for the first and only time, but no-one really rates it for some reason.

The Dutch have enjoyed 5 different winners with Twenty winning their only title.

[SChibs]

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No you wouldn't. Actually not a bad price to see Moutinho, Andre and Bernardo Silva etc. Portugal won the euros 2 years ago.

To be honest England aside the opposition doesn't really come into it when deciding to go to a Scotland game for me. Not really bothered about what players the opposition have I go to see Scotland. I get that people may feel differently but I just don't care enough about football out with Hibs and to a lesser extent Scotland.

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I think the posters point is that it would be as acceptable to Rangers/extreme Jambo minorities to have Lenny as Scotland boss as Gerry Adams. I'm happy enough that they have that view because I'd much prefer he stays at Hibs for a long time yet.

I'm glad you're quick on the uptake, mate. That was exactly my point: there is zero chance Neil Lennon would ever be offered the Scotland job. He could win the treble for Hibs and still wouldn't be approached; the backlash would be horrendous.

[Crunchie]

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Then sack whoever appointed him. Clean sweep required at the SFA.

McLeish is clueless. Should never have been appointed in the first place.

It takes time to build an International team these days, wee Gordon was just getting there when he got papped. I doubt we'll get anywhere if we keep sacking the manager.

FWIW I wouldn't have brought back judas after ditching us the last time. By that I mean Scotland, not Hibs.

[tamig]

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It takes time to build an International team these days, wee Gordon was just getting there when he got papped. I doubt we'll get anywhere if we keep sacking the manager.

FWIW I wouldn't have brought back judas after ditching us the last time. By that I mean Scotland, not Hibs.

I don’t get this dewey eyed view of Strachan’s last days in charge. He was still picking his tried and tested English Championship failures at the expense of emerging talent. A new man with new ideas is whats needed. Not another one of the old school.

[LustForLeith]

I really think that it’ll be generations before the damage done to the Scottish intentional game can be fixed. By which point most other countries will have improved from there they are

[Crunchie]

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I don’t get this dewey eyed view of Strachan’s last days in charge. He was still picking his tried and tested English Championship failures at the expense of emerging talent. A new man with new ideas is whats needed. Not another one of the old school.

It's all very well saying a new man with new ideas, we're living in the real world here, and it's Scotland we're talking about. We have no world class players to choose from and it's a thankless task managing Scotland if you ask me.

You're always going to get fans unhappy with team selection and the paper hacks on your back etc. Do you have anyone in mind to implement these new ideas and pick emerging talent? How did Bertie work out?

It was my opinion Strachan was turning the corner, nothing dewey eyed about it.

[tamig]

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It's all very well saying a new man with new ideas, we're living in the real world here, and it's Scotland we're talking about. We have no world class players to choose from and it's a thankless task managing Scotland if you ask me.

You're always going to get fans unhappy with team selection and the paper hacks on your back etc. Do you have anyone in mind to implement these new ideas and pick emerging talent? How did Bertie work out?

It was my opinion Strachan was turning the corner, nothing dewey eyed about it.

Bertie wasn’t great but there are plenty other coaches out there. The biggest gripe I have with the SFA is this constant harking back to the past. McLeish was out of the game for a while before he got the call. They considered Uncle Watty before him. WTF was that anout? I wouldn’t mind if they looked overseas again. Just because it failed once doesn’t mean you’d fail again. The Scottish national scene is all very drab and insular imo.

[MWHIBBIES]

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It's all very well saying a new man with new ideas, we're living in the real world here, and it's Scotland we're talking about. We have no world class players to choose from and it's a thankless task managing Scotland if you ask me.

You're always going to get fans unhappy with team selection and the paper hacks on your back etc. Do you have anyone in mind to implement these new ideas and pick emerging talent? How did Bertie work out?

It was my opinion Strachan was turning the corner, nothing dewey eyed about it.

Why does it have to be a world class player? Or a household name? Why not something outside the box, something that takes a little imagination.

Implement a proper long term plan. Experienced coach paired with new coach. Experienced coach who has achieved success at international level(Lars largerback was used by Iceland) paired with someone young and interesting with new ideas. Proper coaching staff behind them. Proper scouts watching players every week, building a squad. Young players being used. Interaction between the youth teams. All levels playing the same way.

To win at international level takes alot more than some washed up manager like Strachan or McLeish coming in, picking their favourites, failing by a few points, starting the next campaign poorly, sacked and repeat.

[Crunchie]

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Why does it have to be a world class player? Or a household name? Why not something outside the box, something that takes a little imagination.

Implement a proper long term plan. Experienced coach paired with new coach. Experienced coach who has achieved success at international level(Lars largerback was used by Iceland) paired with someone young and interesting with new ideas. Proper coaching staff behind them. Proper scouts watching players every week, building a squad. Young players being used. Interaction between the youth teams. All levels playing the same way.

To win at international level takes alot more than some washed up manager like Strachan or McLeish coming in, picking their favourites, failing by a few points, starting the next campaign poorly, sacked and repeat.

I don't know what the answer is, but i do know sacking the manager every couple of years isn't going to work.

The sad fact is no manager will get the proper time needed to do anything constructive and build a decent long term squad. It's the nature of the beast here in Scotland.

[Crunchie]

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Bertie wasn’t great but there are plenty other coaches out there. The biggest gripe I have with the SFA is this constant harking back to the past. McLeish was out of the game for a while before he got the call. They considered Uncle Watty before him. WTF was that anout? I wouldn’t mind if they looked overseas again. Just because it failed once doesn’t mean you’d fail again. The Scottish national scene is all very drab and insular imo.

Can't argue with any of that

[MWHIBBIES]

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I don't know what the answer is, but i do know sacking the manager every couple of years isn't going to work.

The sad fact is no manager will get the proper time needed to do anything constructive and build a decent long term squad. It's the nature of the beast here in Scotland.

Giving McLeish 5 years won't make any difference unless they have a proper plan.

A manager will be giving time if it appears he has plans, shows progress, says the right things, works on a proper team and tactics. Makes the team entertaining.

Stubbs wasn't perfect at Hibs but he made good signings, had a proper coaching staff, played good football. He made people fall in love with the club again. Scotland need similar.

[judas]

My suggestion is that we honour our planned fixtures and then withdraw the national team from all play for the next 5 years.

Then we can focus all resources on club football and child development.

[G B Young]

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It's all very well saying a new man with new ideas, we're living in the real world here, and it's Scotland we're talking about. We have no world class players to choose from and it's a thankless task managing Scotland if you ask me.

You're always going to get fans unhappy with team selection and the paper hacks on your back etc. Do you have anyone in mind to implement these new ideas and pick emerging talent? How did Bertie work out?

It was my opinion Strachan was turning the corner, nothing dewey eyed about it.

What evidence was there that he was turning the corner? Granted the campaign when he took over was all but a write-off thanks to Levein's incompetence, but in his subsequent two campaigns we failed to even secure a play-off spot, despite Euro 2016 being expanded to make qualifying easier. Our 2018 World Cup qualifying campaign was over almost as soon as it began thanks to a disastrous start.

I remember back in 2008 after we reached 10 years without qualifying for anything we got the Henry McLeish report which led. among other recommendations, to the introduction of a new performance strategy for youth football. Now that another decade has gone by with no sign of improvement perhaps it's time to consider that there's actually no hidden formula just waiting to be discovered and accept that we are what we are - a low-ranked minnow of the world game.

[Crunchie]

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Giving McLeish 5 years won't make any difference unless they have a proper plan.

A manager will be giving time if it appears he has plans, shows progress, says the right things, works on a proper team and tactics. Makes the team entertaining.

Stubbs wasn't perfect at Hibs but he made good signings, had a proper coaching staff, played good football. He made people fall in love with the club again. Scotland need similar.

I personally wouldn't have given Mcleish the gig in the first place, as for Strachan? he was showing signs of improvement and getting us playing some attractive stuff again, all only my opinion of course.

As for Stubbsy? Legend is all I have to say about the man

[Crunchie]

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What evidence was there that he was turning the corner? Granted the campaign when he took over was all but a write-off thanks to Levein's incompetence, but in his subsequent two campaigns we failed to even secure a play-off spot, despite Euro 2016 being expanded to make qualifying easier. Our 2018 World Cup qualifying campaign was over almost as soon as it began thanks to a disastrous start.

I remember back in 2008 after we reached 10 years without qualifying for anything we got the Henry McLeish report which led. among other recommendations, to the introduction of a new performance strategy for youth football. Now that another decade has gone by with no sign of improvement perhaps it's time to consider that there's actually no hidden formula just waiting to be discovered and accept that we are what we are - a low-ranked minnow of the world game.

No evidence, just my opinion. We were seconds away from beating a strong England side, I'm sure that would have seen us qualify for the play offs. No manager can legislate for individual player errors.

[brog]

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The point is we don't actually know if these players are good enough because they're being played all over, never consistently, with the wrong instructions, wrong formation.

A better manager could get more from them. You can't really tell me every team at the world cup or Euros had better players than Scotland? No chance. Albania? Northern Ireland? Hungary? All qualified in 2016. Scotland had hopeless management who couldn't get most from the players so they didn't. That's what it boils down to.

Everyone thought Hibs had rubbish players for years. We actually had rubbish managers and coaching staff. I remember outrage on here when Stubbs was signing coaches instead of players in his first season. Reality is that exactly how it should be. Players come and go. Proper coaching set ups last year's.

Couldn't agree more. There are over 50 Scottish players who are currently regulars in the top 2 English leagues. Surely we could pick a team from them thats better than the garbage we watched on Thursday.

[LithgaeHibby]

Just a throwaway aside, but I think Hibs at top form, with Lennon on the sidelines, would have comfortably put away Israel on Thursday night.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Change the National anthem and all will be well. Get rid of that pathetic, backward thinking dirge about fighting our closest neighbours and bring in something like Scotland the Brave. Billy Connolly was right, in fact appoint him as manager....sorted

[Benny Brazil]

Devlin Christie and GMS called up for the Portugal game

[BH Hibs]

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Devlin Christie and GMS called up for the Portugal game

Great more ***** from Aberdeen. Just **** off Scotland.

[bingo70]

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Devlin Christie and GMS called up for the Portugal game

I’d never heard of Michael Devlin until he was sent off against Killie.

Is he a youngster that’s just broken through? What position is he?