I Know You May Disagree But...

[matty_f]

Football teams will lose matches, there isn't (to the best of my knowledge) a professional club in the world that has won every trophy and every match that they've competed in.

We've lost 4 this calendar year, I think, and last night's game was lost on penalties to a team that has finished above us every season for however many years now.

You can say that's unacceptable, and if you do then I'd love to know what you're doing about it? If you find it unacceptable then what action are you taking to put it right, or are you just stamping your feet and 'demanding' better?

Football is a sport, there are two teams competing, both want to win, but that's impossible, so something has to give.

If you don't win, you look at the context of the defeat - there was one significant failing last night, and that was the finishing - it's not typical of us (you don't have to go back far to see us scoring 3 in a European tie against a handy outfit, double figures over two legs against a less-handy outfit) 5 against Rangers (in my lifetime that's happened just that once), 5 against Killie (who have accumulated as many points as us and more than any other Premiership team this calendar year, though would be behind us on -ironically- goal difference).

It's not a recurring theme for us just now. Call it a hard luck story and say that's not good enough if you want, but the team did everything bar that one failing to win the game last night.

How can you find that unacceptable? So what next, drop all the players? Drop the forwards? Sack the manager? The board? Cut up your season ticket or boycott the games?

I want to see us play like we played last night. I want to see us score goals and I know we will because we do it frequently and regularly. I think last night was only the second time since we lost to Rangers (ironically, that was another defeat where finishing cost us because we battered them) that we have scored fewer than 2 goals in a domestic game at Easter Road.

It's disappointing not to be in a semi-final, the money would definitely have helped us. I think I'm right in saying, though, that we've had the most Hampden trips in the last decade than any other side (maybe any other non-OF side). That's not serial failure or constant underachieving, it's probably about right for a club our size in this league.

Falling out with people over whether or not they accept a defeat is ridiculous, IMHO - we're not bairns, FFS.

[Scotty Leither]

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There's no "but", the first part of your sentence has nothing to do with the second part - or anything else in fact.

Wow - condescension is alive and well on Hibs.net...

[One Day Soon]

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Wow - condescension is alive and well on Hibs.net...

Is that how you want to interpret it? I was simply pointing out that the first part didn't relate to the second.

It wasn't a comment on your sentence construction or grammar, it was suggesting that since that term is made-up pi5h it has no relationship to alleged 'timidity' in the final third of the park.

Timidity which doesn't actually exist in my view - if you want to pick holes in our recent (last season or so) performances then look at leaking daft goals rather than an inability to score them.

[Bobo]

Last night our performance was very good despite the end product being unacceptably poor, it happens, we just need to persevere and we'll win more than we lose.

We lost a lot of important players in the close season and the new guys are still fitting in so it's still a work in progress for me. IMO we could still do with another couple of additions to the squad but if this is as bad as they'll play I can handle that and hopefully we see further improvement to the squad, come January, as we did last season.

Our main source of income, like every other club, will always be through gate receipts. We need to maintain a level of performance to retain and increase the fan base who attend Easter Road each game and if we can achieve that then on field success and trophies won't be too far away.

[matty_f]

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Will the laddie Lewis Allan be brought back in for Saturday then if Kamberi is out? He's not equipped for a physical battle either, which is a standard requirement for a vast majority of games in this league.

He was brought in for one game because we never brought in another player in the window - we'll not be told why that was either, because hey, we won the Cup 2 years ago, so what right do we have to expect sustained success?

I would never quote the "Hibsing it" line, and I was glad that was very firmly rammed down the throats of BBC Scotland and various other clubs on 21/05/2016, but our timidity in the final third of the park hasn't been addressed for over a year and that's down to the Board, naebody else.

I've had a gutful of "hard-luck" stories in my lifetime as a Hibs supporter and wish those that can influence things would take a punt once in a while...

I have to disagree with this line,not the Board mention, which is irrelevant, but the idea that there is a timidity in the final third of the park and has been for over a year.

I mentioned it on another post - in this calendar year we've put five past Killie and Rangers, two past Celtc in four games (IIRC), we'd scored 6 in 2 games in the matches leading up to last night's game. We had 20-odd shots last night. We've accumulated the most points this calendar year and if the league was run over that period we'd be ahead of Killie on goal difference.

All of the evidence (or facts) - other than drawing a blank last night - contradicts your point there.

[HFC 0-7]

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Football teams will lose matches, there isn't (to the best of my knowledge) a professional club in the world that has won every trophy and every match that they've competed in.

We've lost 4 this calendar year, I think, and last night's game was lost on penalties to a team that has finished above us every season for however many years now.

You can say that's unacceptable, and if you do then I'd love to know what you're doing about it? If you find it unacceptable then what action are you taking to put it right, or are you just stamping your feet and 'demanding' better?

Football is a sport, there are two teams competing, both want to win, but that's impossible, so something has to give.

If you don't win, you look at the context of the defeat - there was one significant failing last night, and that was the finishing - it's not typical of us (you don't have to go back far to see us scoring 3 in a European tie against a handy outfit, double figures over two legs against a less-handy outfit) 5 against Rangers (in my lifetime that's happened just that once), 5 against Killie (who have accumulated as many points as us and more than any other Premiership team this calendar year, though would be behind us on -ironically- goal difference).

It's not a recurring theme for us just now. Call it a hard luck story and say that's not good enough if you want, but the team did everything bar that one failing to win the game last night.

How can you find that unacceptable? So what next, drop all the players? Drop the forwards? Sack the manager? The board? Cut up your season ticket or boycott the games?

I want to see us play like we played last night. I want to see us score goals and I know we will because we do it frequently and regularly. I think last night was only the second time since we lost to Rangers (ironically, that was another defeat where finishing cost us because we battered them) that we have scored fewer than 2 goals in a domestic game at Easter Road.

It's disappointing not to be in a semi-final, the money would definitely have helped us. I think I'm right in saying, though, that we've had the most Hampden trips in the last decade than any other side (maybe any other non-OF side). That's not serial failure or constant underachieving, it's probably about right for a club our size in this league.

Falling out with people over whether or not they accept a defeat is ridiculous, IMHO - we're not bairns, FFS.

Fans demands can influence the board IMO. If you look at the teams at the top they all have the toys out the pram when they get beat. Hearts fans boo'd at the end of their game against Livingston and they are about 5 points clear at the top! Hibs fans havent demanded enough in the past and like it or not Boards will react to fan pressure. We dominated the game last night but the saving grace seems to be that we were unlucky. If we dominated a game against east fife and it was just our finishing or decisions in front of goal thats stopped us winning would you be sharing the same view?? Re the part in bold - not really true is it! They failed to make the correct decisions in front of goal and they never converted one of their numerous chances in front of goal. Thats what stopped us from winning so doing everything bar winning is a bit far fetched.

This was a cup game but look at the livingston game, we dropped points in a game that we should have won. People will say this will happen, its early in the season but when it comes to the end of the season the difference between europe and not can be a couple of points.

You talk about this being about the second time that we have scored less than 2 goals, is that not even more of a reason to be upset and demand more that we didnt do what we normally do?!?

[matty_f]

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Fans demands can influence the board IMO. If you look at the teams at the top they all have the toys out the pram when they get beat. Hearts fans boo'd at the end of their game against Livingston and they are about 5 points clear at the top! Hibs fans havent demanded enough in the past and like it or not Boards will react to fan pressure. We dominated the game last night but the saving grace seems to be that we were unlucky. If we dominated a game against east fife and it was just our finishing or decisions in front of goal thats stopped us winning would you be sharing the same view?? Re the part in bold - not really true is it! They failed to make the correct decisions in front of goal and they never converted one of their numerous chances in front of goal. Thats what stopped us from winning so doing everything bar winning is a bit far fetched.

This was a cup game but look at the livingston game, we dropped points in a game that we should have won. People will say this will happen, its early in the season but when it comes to the end of the season the difference between europe and not can be a couple of points.

You talk about this being about the second time that we have scored less than 2 goals, is that not even more of a reason to be upset and demand more that we didnt do what we normally do?!?

Did Hearts fans booing their team off the pitch get them more points? Nope.

Would booing last night have put us through or made us better in the next match? Nope.

Your last line is up there with the most baffling logic I can remember seeing on hibs.net, and that's saying something.

How is it more reason - do you think the players were meaning to miss last night? Do you think they don't already know that their finishing cost us the game, or that they aren't gutted enough to be going out after playing so well?

What do you think the Board are going to do about it? Get everyone on a written warning that they can't miss chances ever again? Rip everything up and start again, get a new squad in, throw money at it?

We had good players on the pitch last night, players who are more than capable of scoring goals at this level more often than not. They're also (like the rest of us), human and therefore capable of having nights were their shots don't all go in.

Re the bit in bold - we did everything right bar sticking the ball in the net, IMHO - I would say that was what stopped us winning. I think I'm saying the same as you?

[Scotty Leither]

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Is that how you want to interpret it? I was simply pointing out that the first part didn't relate to the second.

It wasn't a comment on your sentence construction or grammar, it was suggesting that since that term is made-up pi5h it has no relationship to alleged 'timidity' in the final third of the park.

Timidity which doesn't actually exist in my view - if you want to pick holes in our recent (last season or so) performances then look at leaking daft goals rather than an inability to score them.

If the "term" you're referring to is "Hibsing it" I wasn't making a link between "that term" and us being light up front and short on numbers, so I hope that clears it up.

I do have a degree in English as it stands though, but am always open to critique on my syntax, so thank you for that.

[Ozyhibby]

I made much of our inability to score goals throughout Stubbs tenure and the early part of Lennon’s, however this calendar year has seen Lennon fix this big time and last night was a very rare blip where we didn’t find the back of the net.
These things happen.
The fact is we are scoring regularly now and the team is improving. There is room for more improvement though but every team in the world thinks that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lapsedhibee]

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What is it you're suggesting we, as a support, do with regards to last night's defeat?

I'd like to know this too. I've already sharpened my pitchfork, but I don't know whose house (of those who missed easy chances last night) we should be storming. Prefer it not to be Porteous's, in case he takes it badly.

[WhileTheChief..]

Crap opening post that comes across as self entitled nonsense.

[matty_f]

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Crap opening post that comes across as self entitled nonsense.

Come on, we're all friends here - tell us what you really think!

[matty_f]

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I'd like to know this too. I've already sharpened my pitchfork, but I don't know whose house (of those who missed easy chances last night) we should be storming. Prefer it not to be Porteous's, in case he takes it badly.

Same here, what do we expect to happen when an unacceptable defeat happens - should Lennon walk, or players be dropped, should they be made to train on their own for a bit or be given detention. Should they be made to come round the stands and apologise to us - the paying public - for it?

[lapsedhibee]

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Same here, what do we expect to happen when an unacceptable defeat happens - should Lennon walk, or players be dropped, should they be made to train on their own for a bit or be given detention. Should they be made to come round the stands and apologise to us - the paying public - for it?

I'd go for a more traditional hibs.net forfeit - make them sit in a bath of beans for a bit.

[Speedway]

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No, it was made up because it was a useful made-up stick to beat us with by our city rivals despite the fact that they were guilty of Jambottling a league and cup double in 1986 - a vastly bigger bit of choking than we have seen from any other Scottish club in the last 50 odd years.

But hey, you like to use the phrase because it gets you attention, allows you to troll and helps you to vent inaccurately and illogically on Neil Lennon's Hibs.

No it was made up because we bottled regularly and primarily against them, while waxing lyrical about our silky brand of football. They countered it with their ugly but winning brand of football. The 86 bottling was huge, so was the 2012 cup final.

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I’m not going to bother revisiting the match day thread thanks.

The hour or so following the game is a horror show, largely down to you. Several different posters called you out on it but you carried on hurling the insults.

You can either reflect on that or not, it’s up to you.

Of course you're not going to bother revisiting the thread, because you'd have your bluff called if you did.

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You might describe that as having Speedwayed-it in fact.

That's genius.

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I think you're confusing à) 'taking positives from a defeat', which is without argument the most appropriate reaction for anyone involved in sport, whether players fans or coaching staff, with b) tolerating defeat, which is not appropriate.

I'd also add that players and coaches should always turn up to a game expecting to win. This is good psychologically. Players and coaches have direct control over the outcome and therefore need to have a positive attitude. Fans, on the other hand, shouldn't turn up to every game expecting to win, because firstly you have no direct control of the outcome, and secondly because you start acting like a tit.

What if taking positives from a defeat tolerates and empowers future defeats with the justification that it doesn't matter, so long as the team played well?

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What is it you're suggesting we, as a support, do with regards to last night's defeat?

Start adding up how much lost income poor finishing costs us and save ourselves 4000 pages of whinging about signings or lack of quality thereof on the next transfer thread.

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Falling out with people over whether or not they accept a defeat is ridiculous, IMHO - we're not bairns, FFS.

I see no evidence to support that view.

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Crap opening post that comes across as self entitled nonsense.

Whereas your post paints you as balanced, insightful and constructive.

[The_Horde]

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A lot of my frustration last night came from posters who took the 'Unlucky Hibs' angle, choosing to focus on how much we'd dominated the match (which we did) rather than the fact that we're now out of 50% of the competitions we can realistically win each season and don't have the prize money to use in the transfer market because people who are paid to score, can't, and some boy can't put the ball in the net from 12 yards without hitting the post, bar or keeper.

I posted that I've seen a disproportionate amount of defeat in my time for a club that's the 4th biggest in the land. The facts back me up. We have more relegations and major final defeats than our closest rivals.

I posted that I hoped we weren't returning to a time when we 'Hibsed it' meaning 'lost when we should have won' or 'bottling it'. During this period of this term being in use, many posters on here excused the results by finding the positives. They were termed 'Happy Clappers'

I know you may disagree, but I don't find positives in defeat. I believe, as fans, that we should demand success in the way that our current manager demands success. That's the only way we'll become bigger and more successful as a club without major investment.

We need the money, we have to win knockout games regardless of how well we play and how poor we make the opposition look. Only winning matters 'in the final analysis' (Copyright Rod Petrie 2011)

Otherwise we risk May 2016 turning into a 'but but but...' response in years to come when we've won nothing since.

We have 10 major honours in our 143 year history. The Yam have 16 and the Sheep have 19 including their Euro honours.

So we can play as well as we want, it doesn't compensate for defeat and when you disagree with a view by telling the holder of that view to **** off, I'll rise to that bait everytime and come back at you with both barrels for being poor wee sensitive loser-minded snowflakes who need to be told how well they played but make up for the fact that they lost.

So, surely we can agree that to progress as a club, we need honours and prize money. In my view, no amount of possession or good play compensates.

We DO run the risk of returning to an era of 'Unlucky Hibs' and 'Plucky defeat' and 'On another day we'd have won that 28-0' because bank managers and players predominantly care about the money and the honours and I believe we should too.

So where many posters take the positives of how we dominated (and we did) I look at the fact that one of our closest rivals, who were pony last night, nevertheless are step closer to honours and now have the money from a semi final that we don't. I don't see this as acceptable or good enough. I know you may disagree.

Gash. I'll afford the team the benefit of the doubt last night.

A bit more clinical and we'd be in the semis and we're still very much a work in progress and still missing some key players.

[bigwheel]

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Will the laddie Lewis Allan be brought back in for Saturday then if Kamberi is out? He's not equipped for a physical battle either, which is a standard requirement for a vast majority of games in this league.

He was brought in for one game because we never brought in another player in the window - we'll not be told why that was either, because hey, we won the Cup 2 years ago, so what right do we have to expect sustained success?

I would never quote the "Hibsing it" line, and I was glad that was very firmly rammed down the throats of BBC Scotland and various other clubs on 21/05/2016, but our timidity in the final third of the park hasn't been addressed for over a year and that's down to the Board, naebody else.

I've had a gutful of "hard-luck" stories in my lifetime as a Hibs supporter and wish those that can influence things would take a punt once in a while...

Doesn't stand up to scrutiny this point - we scored 62 league goals last season. Third most in the league. Scoring goals has not been an issue this season either. I'm gutted by the result last night too. But this "enough of hard luck stories" smacks of "scoreboard supporting". Judging Hibs only by the result. Not considering the performance levels. Be disappointed - fair enough - but I saw enough last night, and on Saturday, to feel we will do alright this season, probably better than expected after losing most of our top players over the summer.

[oldbutdim]

Well, I demanded that we beat Aberdeen last night.

[Speedway]

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Well, I demanded that we beat Aberdeen last night.

How did it go?

[fulshie]

Personally speaking, I feel we played really well last night and definitely deserved to win but, that's fitba.

What people should remember is, we lost ,pretty much, a full midfield in the close season with McGinn, McGeoch and Allen all leaving.

It's incredibly hard to replace that talent in one transfer window but, I think NL has done well with the midfield recruitment and giving
that performance last night I'm upbeat about the season going forward even though we lost "on pens".

[cleanyman]

For the 5th biggest team in the country we do okay.

However, I'd like to see us win more trophies but then wouldn't we all

[lyonhibs]

Last night's result was not good and our lack of the killer touch was frustrating but no longer typical of Lennon's Hibs team.

I think as a result of having a highly competent manager, a great squad (a bit more depth of front needed admittedly), a general feel-good buzz around those running the club (I expect to be picked up on that point by a "sack the Board, Petrie oot" aficionado but that's a risk I'm willing to take) and - most importantly, one of the best runs of form since the turn of the year in bloody ages, people aren't flying off the handle at this defeat as much as would have been the case in years gone by (and obviously not as much as the OP feels we should be)

It's a royal pain in the arse that we're out of 1 of the cup competitions but I'm a way off thinking were about to embark on another "era of failure" - although 3 trophies in the last 27 years is actually historically very good for Hibs - not that I consider that ratio good enough by half, but them's the facts - or are in the process of losing the benefits (primarily increased attendances) that 2016 gave us.

Just look at ST sales and the pedigree of our signings this season.

We dust ourselves off and get back to the bread and butter of the league - number 1 priority for me right now.

[One Day Soon]

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If the "term" you're referring to is "Hibsing it" I wasn't making a link between "that term" and us being light up front and short on numbers, so I hope that clears it up.

I do have a degree in English as it stands though, but am always open to critique on my syntax, so thank you for that.

If your concern is 'timidity' in front of goal over the last year you may need to go back and add a qualification in arithmetic to get up to speed. We're the second highest scorers in the league so far this season and we were fourth highest in goals scored last season.

[Speedway]

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For the 5th biggest team in the country we do okay.

However, I'd like to see us win more trophies but then wouldn't we all

Aberdeen and Hearts both bigger would you say?

Aberdeen yes, but Hearts?

[cleanyman]

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Aberdeen and Hearts both bigger would you say?

Aberdeen yes, but Hearts?

The stats don't lie Speedway

My papa is the same age is you and he's seen all the great Hibs teams despite being a Ger. He says himself that Hibs never fully grasped their chances after the 50s where they could have been the biggest team in Scotland. Maybe he's right ?

Hearts have nailed us to the floor too many times for me to say we are a bigger club.

[One Day Soon]

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No it was made up because we bottled regularly and primarily against them, while waxing lyrical about our silky brand of football. They countered it with their ugly but winning brand of football. The 86 bottling was huge, so was the 2012 cup final.



Of course you're not going to bother revisiting the thread, because you'd have your bluff called if you did.



That's genius.



What if taking positives from a defeat tolerates and empowers future defeats with the justification that it doesn't matter, so long as the team played well?



Start adding up how much lost income poor finishing costs us and save ourselves 4000 pages of whinging about signings or lack of quality thereof on the next transfer thread.



I see no evidence to support that view.


Whereas your post paints you as balanced, insightful and constructive.

You don't half talk some drivel. We bottled the 2012 Cup Final aye? You do remember the enormous imbalance in spending on players that subsequently caused them to go bust, the performance of the referee on the day and the injuries we had to our squad for the final? If you can call that bottling it you really need help.

'Speedwayed-it' isn't genius, but it is very, very accurate.

[cleanyman]

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You don't half talk some drivel. We bottled the 2012 Cup Final aye? You do remember the enormous imbalance in spending on players that subsequently caused them to go bust, the performance of the the referee on the day and the injuries we had to our squad for the final? If you can call that bottling it you really need help.

'Speedwayed-it' isn't genius, but it is very, very accurate.

Hibs shat it that day

[Speedway]

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Hibs shat it that day

Sadly, yes we did.

One Day Soon. Nice attempt at denial. 'Aww but Maaaaawww the big boys spent more than us to win the shiny cup but but but injuries but but but the ref but but but'

FFS man grow a pair!

They won. We didn't. That's the problem. Until that reverses and becomes 'Natural Order' that we win, not the hammer throwers we face, I'll keep raging at defeats.

Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser.

[hibsbollah]

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What if taking positives from a defeat tolerates and empowers future defeats with the justification that it doesn't matter, so long as the team played well?

If that toleration of failure is endemic within the club, then it's a problem. If it's only apparent among the fan base, it doesn't really matter one bit.

[HFC 0-7]

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Did Hearts fans booing their team off the pitch get them more points? Nope.

Would booing last night have put us through or made us better in the next match? Nope.

Your last line is up there with the most baffling logic I can remember seeing on hibs.net, and that's saying something.

How is it more reason - do you think the players were meaning to miss last night? Do you think they don't already know that their finishing cost us the game, or that they aren't gutted enough to be going out after playing so well?

What do you think the Board are going to do about it? Get everyone on a written warning that they can't miss chances ever again? Rip everything up and start again, get a new squad in, throw money at it?

We had good players on the pitch last night, players who are more than capable of scoring goals at this level more often than not. They're also (like the rest of us), human and therefore capable of having nights were their shots don't all go in.

Re the bit in bold - we did everything right bar sticking the ball in the net, IMHO - I would say that was what stopped us winning. I think I'm saying the same as you?

I think you are taking this too far here. I don’t see anyone losing their hea d over this, people pointing out that they have a right to be the nhappy. I admire your attitude sometimes as you always strive to see the positives but you almost beat the people down that want to see a bit more and a change of mindset from fans that when we get beat because we can let do the ones thing that matters in football, scoring!

I don’t expect and I don’t think anything be else does, the board to do anything off the back of one result, I certainly haven’t called for it. All I think is that when people say that last night wasn’t good enough and that these types of performances when we dominate and don’t win need to be rectified as it’s costing us money and the chance of silverware or league positions.

Re the most baffling point for you. You seem to think that not doing what we normally do is ok as a one off. I see it as a failing if we don’t do what we normally do???? Is that really baffling?

Matty, you should have been a politician, yes we are agreeing that we did everything apart from putting the ball in the net but given that is one of the main objectives, if not the only one, I would say it’s a pretty big issue, yet your slant on it makes out that it’s not that big of a deal.

I go back to the point, I don’t think anyone is calling for the board to do anything but if as fans we push for more on the pitch then the board, the manager and players will know what is expected of them when they come here.

I have spoken to one ex hibs player that talked about how when he was coming to the club people spoke to him about how hibs are a good club but have a habit of under achieving, not the sort of things that should be associated with our club when new players come on board. Granted his time at the club was a while back but I could easily see people seeing the same thing now.