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  1. #121
    Coaching Staff monktonharp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The idea of meeting up with hearts fans was just that an idea. It’s received a pretty luke warm response so it might not happen.
    It would be good to get a few folk of here together though then head down for the game afterwards.
    I was at an event directly after the march, and I think you'd be surprised at the amount of diverse fans attending it. Hibs Hearts to the fore but we also had several Celtic fans and a few the Rangers fans all at the event. directly after the march. there were 4 different singers/bands there in the underground bar, Teviot halls in Bristo Squre Edin. expected student prises at the bar, but that wisnae how it worked though £4 a pint o' Guinness in a plastic pint jug!!!!


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  3. #122
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    For those who are still questioning the 100,000 figure an accepted method of calculation of crowds was used.

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...75222862555690
    Right so we take their word for it do we? An accepted method by who and what body?

    They seem to have done a manual calculation then say the software used is 'apparently' used by the French media and authorities? So did they use software or not? If so what's it called and did the French use it or not, what does apparently mean?

    I think we have established though that whether it was 20,000 or 120,000 it does not really matter. What matters is when is IndyRef2 and will the big questions be answered.

  4. #123
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Right so we take their word for it do we? An accepted method by who and what body?

    They seem to have done a manual calculation then say the software used is 'apparently' used by the French media and authorities? So did they use software or not? If so what's it called and did the French use it or not, what does apparently mean?

    I think we have established though that whether it was 20,000 or 120,000 it does not really matter. What matters is when is IndyRef2 and will the big questions be answered.
    Google is a wonderful tool.

    What Methods Are Used for Crowd Counting?

    The most common method for estimating the number of people in a large crowd, known as Jacobs Method, is actually pretty straightforward. The technique is named after Herbert Jacobs, a professor of journalism at UC Berkeley who came up with it while trying to estimate the size of the Vietnam War protests outside his office window in the 1960s.

    Jacobs noticed that the ground outside was gridded so he could carefully count how many protesters were in one square on the grid and then multiply by the number of squares. Thus crowds in spaces like the National Mall that are laid out in a natural grid-like pattern can be easier to tally.
    If a rally space is not so conveniently gridded, knowing the total area, along with the density of the crowd, is also sufficient. The most tightly packed crowd, known officially as “mosh pit density,” has one person per every 2.5 square feet. This is the sort of crowd where, if you were able to pick your feet up off the ground, you’d be so squished by those around you that you’d probably stay upright just fine. This density of people is considered a strict upper limit—any crowd counts that allot less space per person are not considered physically possible.


    A more breathable crowd puts one person per ever 4.5 square feet which still places you elbow to elbow with your neighbors. A light crowd might have one person per every 10 square feet. Thus breaking up the landscape into higher vs lower crowd density chunks and then multiplying by their relative areas can give very estimates of crowd size usually within 10-20%.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  5. #124
    johnbc70
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    Great piece of software used then i.e none. It was some guy calculating it in his head, so what could possibly go wrong.

  6. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Google is a wonderful tool.
    Is that the method that was used at the weekend? Every time you answer something, more questions are raised.

    I just want a properly verified figure, there are people following this debate objectively, and this desperation to massage figures up, or down, does not look good on either side.

    If people can't be trusted to be honest with the electorate on things like how many turned up at the rally, they can't be trusted on other matters either.

    For floating voters, if each side cancels the other out then the result could be to abstain. Who is going to vote for change, when it could mean a bigger mess?

    We need clear heads, not people who are basing their argument on emotion. We've already seen what that ended up in with Brexit.

    My advice to the Indy campaigners is dump the Braveheart politics, and start talking in a cool reasoned manner again, like Salmond did the last time.

  7. #126
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Great piece of software used then i.e none. It was some guy calculating it in his head, so what could possibly go wrong.
    Conversely, how did CEC arrive at their 20k.?

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  8. #127
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Conversely, how did CEC arrive at their 20k.?

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    No idea. But a guess would be experiencing other marches on a smaller scale and then estimating based on that experience.

  9. #128
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    No idea. But a guess would be experiencing other marches on a smaller scale and then estimating based on that experience.
    So no counting involved?

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  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Conversely, how did CEC arrive at their 20k.?

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    The same polling method they used to show universal support of the trams, and wholehearted approval of the Virgin Hotel in the Grassmarket?

    They make Trump look like George Washington.

  11. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Chic Murray View Post
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    Is that the method that was used at the weekend? Every time you answer something, more questions are raised.

    I just want a properly verified figure, there are people following this debate objectively, and this desperation to massage figures up, or down, does not look good on either side.

    If people can't be trusted to be honest with the electorate on things like how many turned up at the rally, they can't be trusted on other matters either.

    For floating voters, if each side cancels the other out then the result could be to abstain. Who is going to vote for change, when it could mean a bigger mess?

    We need clear heads, not people who are basing their argument on emotion. We've already seen what that ended up in with Brexit.

    My advice to the Indy campaigners is dump the Braveheart politics, and start talking in a cool reasoned manner again, like Salmond did the last time.
    Why?

    I doubt there has been a march in human history where the organisers and "authorities" agreed on the numbers present.

    And in this case the organisers weren't the SNP or Scottish Government and the authorities weren't the Tories or UK Government so neither side are the people you claim would have their trustworthiness undermined. We do need clear heads, not people who are going to get all het up about the accuracy of quoted attenders at a march.

  12. #131
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Turning this into a pissing competition about numbers is a great way to deflect away from the real story.

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Turning this into a pissing competition about numbers is a great way to deflect away from the real story.
    I wonder if these same posters were as het up about some of the figures bandied about for the attendance at our cup final parade?

  14. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Why?

    I doubt there has been a march in human history where the organisers and "authorities" agreed on the numbers present.

    And in this case the organisers weren't the SNP or Scottish Government and the authorities weren't the Tories or UK Government so neither side are the people you claim would have their trustworthiness undermined. We do need clear heads, not people who are going to get all het up about the accuracy of quoted attenders at a march.
    Are you serious? We are just to accept what we are told without question? I know how some yoons would spin that

    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Turning this into a pissing competition about numbers is a great way to deflect away from the real story.
    Which is why I'm disappointed the organisers, or their supporters got into it. The minute somebody came out with the 100,000 figure, I smelt *****.

    Doesn't come across like dry eyed, clear headed politics to me. It comes across like Nuremberg style parades across the new bridge, or ass holes driving up and down the M90 with Scottish flags draped out of their cars.

    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalGreen View Post
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    I wonder if these same posters were as het up about some of the figures bandied about for the attendance at our cup final parade?
    Are you saying they were take as well? I always thought the minus 400,000 quoted in some quarters was suspect.


    Overall some worrying examples of adversarial politics, guys. As far as I'm aware you can't make people vote for you in this country, by beating their head against the wall. Yet, that is, because if this turning on people who want more information is a sign of things to come, you'll never win any referendum.

  15. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalGreen View Post
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    I wonder if these same posters were as het up about some of the figures bandied about for the attendance at our cup final parade?
    I think the 4 million figure for that is beyond dispute.

  16. #135
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    I think the 4 million figure for that is beyond dispute.
    The Police Scotland facial recognition software confirms that.

  17. #136
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Great piece of software used then i.e none. It was some guy calculating it in his head, so what could possibly go wrong.
    Using the method mentioned and using the 10% to 20% error a figure between 90,000 & 123,000 is a reasonably good estimate. Edinburgh Council figure 20,000 is the one that needs to be questioned.

    How would you have estimated the crowd seeing as you are unwilling to accept an acknowledged method?
    Last edited by Moulin Yarns; 08-10-2018 at 12:01 PM.

  18. #137
    @hibs.net private member Mantis Toboggan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chic Murray View Post
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    Are you serious? We are just to accept what we are told without question? I know how some yoons would spin that



    Which is why I'm disappointed the organisers, or their supporters got into it. The minute somebody came out with the 100,000 figure, I smelt *****.

    Doesn't come across like dry eyed, clear headed politics to me. It comes across like Nuremberg style parades across the new bridge, or ass holes driving up and down the M90 with Scottish flags draped out of their cars.



    Are you saying they were take as well? I always thought the minus 400,000 quoted in some quarters was suspect.


    Overall some worrying examples of adversarial politics, guys. As far as I'm aware you can't make people vote for you in this country, by beating their head against the wall. Yet, that is, because if this turning on people who want more information is a sign of things to come, you'll never win any referendum.
    Another marvellous example of you inexplicably referring to the Nazis. Don't even know what your last paragraph is meant to mean.

  19. #138
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Got to laugh at the "we need more information" argument. Exactly what information is coming from rUK which has you feeling safer in their hands?

    Surely at this stage, the only piece of information that should actually be relevant is the piece of information that tells us that we'd be in control of where we're heading. Whether you stand with Scotland or rUK, this is the only piece of clear information you're really going to get. Either we're in control, or we're not.

  20. #139
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Using the method mentioned and using the 10% to 20% error a figure between 90,000 & 123,000 is a reasonably good estimate. Edinburgh Council figure 20,000 is the one that needs to be questioned.

    How would you have estimated the crowd seeing as you are unwilling to accept an acknowledged method?
    I am just after the facts, that's all. Nobody can seem to supply them though. We have anything between 20,000 and 193,000 which is crazy.

  21. #140
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I am just after the facts, that's all. Nobody can seem to supply them though.
    The best estimate using established methods is 113,000. That is a fact. Any other figure you have heard is likely to be less accurate.
    #Persevered
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  22. #141
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Got to laugh at the "we need more information" argument. Exactly what information is coming from rUK which has you feeling safer in their hands?

    Surely at this stage, the only piece of information that should actually be relevant is the piece of information that tells us that we'd be in control of where we're heading. Whether you stand with Scotland or rUK, this is the only piece of clear information you're really going to get. Either we're in control, or we're not.
    Just because you don't need further information does that mean everyone thinks like you? You need to laugh at the people who want more information, how will that go down with the people that want this information to make up their mind.

    Not everyone is driven my the emotional argument and they are lots of people who will want more information.

    Don't judge other on what you think, everyone is different and comes at it from different angles.

  23. #142
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Just because you don't need further information does that mean everyone thinks like you? You need to laugh at the people who want more information, how will that go down with the people that want this information to make up their mind.

    Not everyone is driven my the emotional argument and they are lots of people who will want more information.

    Don't judge other on what you think, everyone is different and comes at it from different angles.
    I think people want "more information", when they know that further information can't possibly be provided at this stage. Because it helps them justify their own position to themselves, even although their own stance is completely lacking in information and answers.

  24. #143
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    The best estimate using established methods is 113,000. That is a fact. Any other figure you have heard is likely to be less accurate.
    Disagree, there is no scrutiny of that method at all. You have no idea if whoever this person is (who are they anyway) followed that method to the book, was experienced in doing this before or if they made a mistake or not.

    Why don't we go half way and say 70,000 and leave it at that.

  25. #144
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    I think people want "more information", when they know that further information can't possibly be provided at this stage. Because it helps them justify their own position to themselves, even although their own stance is completely lacking in information and answers.
    Why can't it be provided at this stage? We have had 4 years since the last referendum.

    Do you think Nicola Sturgeon would agree with your view of laughing at people that wanted more information?

  26. #145
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    I think people want "more information", when they know that further information can't possibly be provided at this stage. Because it helps them justify their own position to themselves, even although their own stance is completely lacking in information and answers.
    Or maybe they do, genuinely, want more information.

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  27. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Toboggan View Post
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    Another marvellous example of you inexplicably referring to the Nazis. Don't even know what your last paragraph is meant to mean.
    Inexplicably? You dad on and keep rubbishing people who raise points you are uncomfortable with.

    Pretty poor show, and I can't believe you don't know that Yoons use the Nazi argument as a reason not to adapt nationalist politics. Do your side a favour and stop the sneering, it just doesn't look good at all.

    Seems to be that the professional soldiers of the Indy movement pre 2014 have become overrun by a whole load of mentalist conscripts who are ignoring advice and charging the battlements, when it is clear that they will be mown down.

    How can you expect anybody to support your cause in those circumstances. Salmond had us convinced of the power of reasoned debate, but bully boys like you are just setting the whole thing back a generation.

    I don't want to live in a Scotland where you are not allowed to question things without being accused of being on one extreme, or the other. Pretty scary, to be honest.
    Last edited by Chic Murray; 08-10-2018 at 01:51 PM.

  28. #147
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Disagree, there is no scrutiny of that method at all. You have no idea if whoever this person is (who are they anyway) followed that method to the book, was experienced in doing this before or if they made a mistake or not.

    Why don't we go half way and say 70,000 and leave it at that.
    Half way between what though? If you actually bothered to read the method used then you would know that it was followed. I know that the march started at 1 but that where I was didn't move until 1:35 and I was not far from the front. I know the end of the march was at the Lothian road end of Castle terrace and it didn't move until 2:10.

    Before the march we were standing fairly close together and it spread out a bit once moving.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  29. #148
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Half way between what though? If you actually bothered to read the method used then you would know that it was followed. I know that the march started at 1 but that where I was didn't move until 1:35 and I was not far from the front. I know the end of the march was at the Lothian road end of Castle terrace and it didn't move until 2:10.

    Before the march we were standing fairly close together and it spread out a bit once moving.
    You know what, I agree it was 113,000.

  30. #149
    Veni, Vidi, Posti degenerated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Half way between what though? If you actually bothered to read the method used then you would know that it was followed. I know that the march started at 1 but that where I was didn't move until 1:35 and I was not far from the front. I know the end of the march was at the Lothian road end of Castle terrace and it didn't move until 2:10.

    Before the march we were standing fairly close together and it spread out a bit once moving.
    When the main thrust of the unionists current arguments are that there is no demand for a referendum then it's easy to see why they are desperately trying to convince themselves that there was only half a dozen people and a dug there. Even more so given it's been by far the biggest turnout at one of these marches, and in a City that was a pro union stronghold last time.

    I was on the motorbike and passed through Bread Street about some time about 2pm and there was still a huge gathering of people still to get started. All the way along the Cowgate you could see the march if you looked up the streets to the High Street, as we got down to Holyrood they were pouring in, we sat for a bit and then were let through the park and up round arthurs seat, as I came back down I could still see them coming in huge numbers. I left just before 3pm to get to shoot off to the game, missing the first 20 minutes, but still seeing all 6 goals

  31. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Got to laugh at the "we need more information" argument. Exactly what information is coming from rUK which has you feeling safer in their hands?

    Surely at this stage, the only piece of information that should actually be relevant is the piece of information that tells us that we'd be in control of where we're heading. Whether you stand with Scotland or rUK, this is the only piece of clear information you're really going to get. Either we're in control, or we're not.
    The information I need is "am I being lied to". I already established that one side was doing that in 2014, it would appear from the deflection on here that the other side is equally unconfortable with the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    I think people want "more information", when they know that further information can't possibly be provided at this stage. Because it helps them justify their own position to themselves, even although their own stance is completely lacking in information and answers.
    The information can be provided - what...was...the...source...of...the...120,000 figure? Was it as reliable as CEC's nonsense?

    Quote Originally Posted by degenerated View Post
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    When the main thrust of the unionists current arguments are that there is no demand for a referendum then it's easy to see why they are desperately trying to convince themselves that there was only half a dozen people and a dug there. Even more so given it's been by far the biggest turnout at one of these marches, and in a City that was a pro union stronghold last time.

    I was on the motorbike and passed through Bread Street about some time about 2pm and there was still a huge gathering of people still to get started. All the way along the Cowgate you could see the march if you looked up the streets to the High Street, as we got down to Holyrood they were pouring in, we sat for a bit and then were let through the park and up round arthurs seat, as I came back down I could still see them coming in huge numbers. I left just before 3pm to get to shoot off to the game, missing the first 20 minutes, but still seeing all 6 goals
    I'm not desperately trying to convince myself about anything, I would like somebody to convince me that I am not being lied to. All very well saying that getting hung up on numbers distracts from the point, if the number is not significant, why massage it up the way. You can see why people might be concerned that other figures might get massaged, as well.

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