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  1. #121
    @hibs.net private member superfurryhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onion View Post
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    Without question, the social shift in kids pursuits is at the heart of the National tramís decline. You could easily argue that Scotland was punching well above its weight in the 50-80s due the sheer volume of young lads playing football day and night. However, the football authorities have failed to recognise and replace that, so we are where we are - finding our own level among the worst footballing nations in Europe.
    I agree with the latter part about the football authorities. The SFA and the clubs are all culpable in their own ways. Our professional game still places an over reilance on physicality at the expense of skill and creativity and this is part of a wider culture that permeates all the way down the chain. The pro youth system has failed too. Has the standard changed or have produced any more high quality players because of it? The social changes you refer to are no different though in any other European nation, it is a culture and facilities issue that stops progress.


    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Thereís still plenty football being played by kids in this country. I was at pitreavie playing fields on Saturday morning and there was hundreds of kids playing in the weekly U9s festival. Itís far more organised than it used to be all through the agegroups. Something is going wrong with turning talented youngsters into professional footballers. Personally I think itís down to the professional clubs. I refuse to believe that with all these kids playing every week that there isnít talented players out there. Our current captain was released by Celtic and ended up at Queens Park ffs.
    I agree Bunberry, I was down at the Jack Kane watching my pals laddie. The place was busy loads of kids and lots of games. Sadly the12ís were playing a side at a much better standard and there were a lot of boys who barely had a kick of a ball- that makes it seems like a miracle they carry on.

    When you mention the failure to convert talent into professionalism, I wonder what can be done differently? I,ím not sure how it gets resolved. I watched some equivalent of juvenile football in Spain, all played on astro. It was competative and robust, but there was very little lumping the ball away. The emphasis was on passing, always.

    Scotland is still one of the most passionate football nations on this earth. We love the game, watch and play it in huge numbers ( relative to our population). I feel sorry for younger guys who havenít had the chance to appreciate how much passion the national side created in past decades.


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  3. #122
    @hibs.net private member Diclonius's Avatar
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    Albania
    Bosnia
    Croatia
    Denmark
    Iceland
    Ireland
    Latvia
    Northern Ireland
    Norway
    Slovakia
    Slovenia
    Wales

    European countries with an equivalent or lower population that have qualified for a major tournament since we last did. I take it the majority of kids in these countries aren't always "playing the Xboxes" and "never going outside" like we apparently do? That the rapid technological boom has only affected Scotland and kids in Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Wales live in some sort of time-unaffected utopia where video games and the internet don't exist and everyone plays outside from the minute school finishes until tea time?

    What a lazy, ridiculous smokescreen of an argument.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSEJVT View Post
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    Imo it boils down to lack of participation.

    When I was a boy every boy played, yes to varying degrees of ability but everyone played.

    Half the time in places that they shouldn't, I lost count of the times we were chased by the parkie or the polis, but folk were so keen to play they played wherever they could

    Huge games with later arrivals decided by a cock and a hen were commonplace

    Everyone wanted to get in their school team / play for their boys club / play for their street / scheme.

    As soon as you were big enough you played against folk many years older than you and it toughened you up.

    In some ways it was a rite of passage getting picked to play by bigger boys

    It was absolutely unthinkable that most of the boys that stuck with it to secondary school wouldn't then go on and play as adults

    I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a bunch of kids walking down a street with a ball, in my youth a ball was your most prized possession.

    Nowadays it seems that mum or dad need to take them to a boys club to encourage kids to play.

    Many lack the basic ability to cross or trap a ball as the only time they see it is at training.

    Coaches do a great job but they cant make silk purses out of sows ears and far too often that is what they are tasked with doing through lack of numbers to thin down into good players capable of developing to a good standard

    The transition from what was in my day A forms to the first team has always been fraught but one thing that really surprises me in Scotland is that very few teams sign players from lower leagues

    Is it the case that the top teams pick up all the top talent and then put it through the meat grinder so that these boys either make it or quit and the lower teams only get to sign players who will very seldom be capable of playing at a higher level.

    If that is the case that layer of discarded talent that might come good elsewhere is lost to the game.

    Having said that I can think of very few players discarded as youths by Hibs who have made us regret doing so over the last 30 years, so maybe clubs know what they are doing?
    Aye but in those days at school everyone prob just had three winter sports to choose from - football or rugby (depending on your school) or cross-country running - and you did it right through August to March - a massive pool of potential players. These days at school you get a 4 week block in all sorts of different sports which, on top of wider media coverage of minority sports, widens kids' interest. Allied with sometimes massive public funding for minority sports at which we have a chance of getting a medal at Olympics or Commonwealths, why would the sporty kid stick with football when he/she now has far greater opportunity to more easily excel and get national recognition in a lesser sport, like judo, mountain biking, snowboarding, or speed climbing? FFS there is even talk of e-sports getting into the Olympics.

    Mind you, whilst this might reduce the overall number playing the game at school or club level through the age-groups, you'd think the really top talent would still come through. Or does the wee skillful lad a la Jimmy Johnstone who is maybe young in his year group get lost 'cos coaches just pick the more physical lads to try and win the game?

    Sadly, I don't think we will ever see Scotland on the football stage at the same sort of level, nor respected as opponents, the way we were in the 70s.

  5. #124
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    When we talk about improved facilities the Orium jumps immediately to mind, but how many others do we have?
    Full size pitch playable in all weathers it has to be the way forward!
    Just look at all the teams that use its facilities both football and rugby, and the amount of games played on it from under 11's upwards male and female.
    To my way of thinking there should be at least 1 of this type of facility in every big town or city, where the young can train and play throughout the winter months in a local area without having to travel miles, as this means the parents are tasked with bringing and taking their kids back and forwards miles just to train.

  6. #125
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    I don't know why we bother with a full-time manager - certainly not an unremarkable type like McLeish.

  7. #126
    I think we're all agreed that there are many reasons for the decline in the Scottish National Football Team. Lots of arguments and counter-arguments discussed on this thread. The reality is that it's not one reason alone that is the cause. Also, that it's not one person or organisation alone that's to blame, if we are in the game of pinning blame.

    However, surely it's now time for our 'leaders' to do something about it. As I said in the original post..............

    Quote Originally Posted by theonlywayisup View Post
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    I've got no idea how to correct all that is wrong with Scottish football. We've had initiatives since the early 90s, but it's not working. How are we going to correct this?

    Thoughts?
    How do we put pressure on our 'leaders' to do something about it? At club level, pressure can be applied to club owners to do something about poor performance. There's been many instances of this in the past. Any club owner would be foolish not to listen to the views of their fan base. However, with the Scotland National Team there just seems to be an acceptance that we're rubbish. For the avoidance of doubt, by 'leaders' I don't just mean the SFA. I'd also include government, schools, boys football organisations etc even the media.

    How are we going to correct this? Because, whatever we're doing it's not working.

  8. #127
    @hibs.net private member cleanyman's Avatar
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    The women are doing no bad

  9. #128
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfurryhibby View Post
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    I agree with the latter part about the football authorities. The SFA and the clubs are all culpable in their own ways. Our professional game still places an over reilance on physicality at the expense of skill and creativity and this is part of a wider culture that permeates all the way down the chain. The pro youth system has failed too. Has the standard changed or have produced any more high quality players because of it? The social changes you refer to are no different though in any other European nation, it is a culture and facilities issue that stops progress.




    I agree Bunberry, I was down at the Jack Kane watching my pals laddie. The place was busy loads of kids and lots of games. Sadly the12ís were playing a side at a much better standard and there were a lot of boys who barely had a kick of a ball- that makes it seems like a miracle they carry on.

    When you mention the failure to convert talent into professionalism, I wonder what can be done differently? I,ím not sure how it gets resolved. I watched some equivalent of juvenile football in Spain, all played on astro. It was competative and robust, but there was very little lumping the ball away. The emphasis was on passing, always.

    Scotland is still one of the most passionate football nations on this earth. We love the game, watch and play it in huge numbers ( relative to our population). I feel sorry for younger guys who havenít had the chance to appreciate how much passion the national side created in past decades.
    I think coaching has a lot to do with it. What I would say is that we need a coaching technique that suits the Scottish kids. Thereís been many successful sides in world football over the years and not all of them have been built on the same total football that the Spanish have adopted. While the French are undoubtedly a team with excellent technique, they move the ball forward much quicker, theyíre the ultimate counter attacking team. We need to look to other countries but try and adapt it to our game. Thereís certain qualities we have and we need to build our game around them.

    GIRLS DONT LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE SIMON MURRAY

  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I think coaching has a lot to do with it. What I would say is that we need a coaching technique that suits the Scottish kids. Thereís been many successful sides in world football over the years and not all of them have been built on the same total football that the Spanish have adopted. While the French are undoubtedly a team with excellent technique, they move the ball forward much quicker, theyíre the ultimate counter attacking team. We need to look to other countries but try and adapt it to our game. Thereís certain qualities we have and we need to build our game around them.
    Back in 1978 I was on holiday in Gothenberg, and was lucky enough to watch a game on a shale pitch with nets in each goal and corner flags, that were not removed after the game.
    I would say the teams were around 12/13 age group, and one boy playing at the back stood out from the rest, his control of the ball and passing was amazing, he would bring the ball down with his thigh and push the ball wide with the other leg, and he could do it with both feet.
    The others in the teams were also of a great standard, but no one was jumping into challenges, it was all about 1/2 ball movement, and it was a joy to watch.
    Since then I have watched quite a few young teams here and have never yet seen anyone with that young players skill!
    If it was coached, we should be trying to bring these coaches over here to show us how to do it!!!

  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Is It On.... View Post
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    I remember that..was in the late 80s? A big start to show that things are changing is to ditch Hampden and move to Murrayfield. The people in charge of our game aren't even brave enough to do that!! The next step would be to get a director of football and professional chief exec appointed. They would, amongst other things, be responsible for hiring and firing of managers at all age groups. We have to do things differently if we want a different outcome.
    Early 90s maybe? It's something I vaguely remember from my childhood.

    Maybe around the same time we got wallpaper away to Portugal (5-0?) which seems to have been a surprise result at the time, but actually seemed to be a VERY accurate sign of things to come.

    I find this thread interesting though, because it seems everybody is very sure of what needs to be done, but almost every post has a different solution to a different problem!

  12. #131
    @hibs.net private member Keekaboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Early 90s maybe? It's something I vaguely remember from my childhood.

    Maybe around the same time we got wallpaper away to Portugal (5-0?) which seems to have been a surprise result at the time, but actually seemed to be a VERY accurate sign of things to come.

    I find this thread interesting though, because it seems everybody is very sure of what needs to be done, but almost every post has a different solution to a different problem!

    As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.

  13. #132
    Coaching Staff HUTCHYHIBBY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keekaboo View Post
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    As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.
    We certainly took a right pasting though.

  14. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    We certainly took a right pasting though.
    Both fullbacks overlapped well

  15. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Diclonius View Post
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    Albania
    Bosnia
    Croatia
    Denmark
    Iceland
    Ireland
    Latvia
    Northern Ireland
    Norway
    Slovakia
    Slovenia
    Wales

    European countries with an equivalent or lower population that have qualified for a major tournament since we last did. I take it the majority of kids in these countries aren't always "playing the Xboxes" and "never going outside" like we apparently do? That the rapid technological boom has only affected Scotland and kids in Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Wales live in some sort of time-unaffected utopia where video games and the internet don't exist and everyone plays outside from the minute school finishes until tea time?

    What a lazy, ridiculous smokescreen of an argument.
    Not really, croatia currently have a golden generation, the rest of these countries players are on a level similar to Scotland.

  16. #135
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keekaboo View Post
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    As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.
    I woodchip in with a pun of my own if I could think of one.

  17. #136
    @hibs.net private member EH54's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diclonius View Post
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    Albania
    Bosnia
    Croatia
    Denmark
    Iceland
    Ireland
    Latvia
    Northern Ireland
    Norway
    Slovakia
    Slovenia
    Wales

    European countries with an equivalent or lower population that have qualified for a major tournament since we last did. I take it the majority of kids in these countries aren't always "playing the Xboxes" and "never going outside" like we apparently do? That the rapid technological boom has only affected Scotland and kids in Albania, Bosnia, Croatia, Denmark, Iceland, Ireland, Latvia, Northern Ireland, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Wales live in some sort of time-unaffected utopia where video games and the internet don't exist and everyone plays outside from the minute school finishes until tea time?

    What a lazy, ridiculous smokescreen of an argument.
    The thing for me that stands out is they countries mentioned seem to have more organisation, and are more settled. We've chopped and changed managers and players. We need to work out a strong starting x11 and formation, one that is solid first so we are staying in games then build from there. The defence we have needs as much protection as possible. Doesn't matter who's playing every week and on form etc..we need to get a group of players used to playing and performing at international level and fimiliar with our setup, instead of throwing a random 11 on the park.

  18. #137
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theonlywayisup View Post
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    What an abysmal performance last night against Belgium. Yes, I know they're one of the best teams in the world at the moment. Yes, I know we competed okay until the Gordon/McGinn moment of madness.

    For those who grew up watching the teams of the 70s and early 80s, it's very difficult watching such displays. Back then we at least competed against the world's best. We always get the story about the next batch of u18s or u21s that will turn our fortunes around for us only to get worse.

    When will our leaders start to resolve years on wrong decisions?

    I've always thought the decline of Scottish football in the 80s coincided with two actions that changed how football was managed in this country.

    The first being our teacher's decision to cut back on extra curricular activities. Up until then we had school teachers who took time to train and manage football teams. There was no option but to work with the age group you had. In my day, we had training once a week, a match during the week and one at the weekend. The teacher's rarely had their own child in the team, so every one got a fair chance. For the boys, you played as a team and the bond was strong. There was none of this joining another team of things didn't go well for you.

    The second being the Ranger's revolution that allegedly saved Scottish football when Souness started to splash the cash. Up until then you had great sides such as Aberdeen and Dundee United competing in Europe with home grown talent. After that date, teams were more likely to be filled with overseas players many of whom were not that much better than the Scottish players.

    I've got no idea how to correct all that is wrong with Scottish football. We've had initiatives since the early 90s, but it's not working. How are we going to correct this?

    Thoughts?
    Good point on the schools but also youth clubs/BB/scouts and others who provide football.

    Contrast Iceland which has more qualified coaches per head of population than any other country. If kids are playing their they are being trained properly and they manage to identify and develop enough players from their small population to compete at a good level.

    The SFA’s main task should be funding and providing for the development of loads of coaches.

  19. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keekaboo View Post
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    As far as I know, we've never been wallpapered by Portugal.
    😂 bloody predictive!

  20. #139
    Why not ban 11 a side teams for kids.Only 5 a sides and all about playing passes.At 14 move them on to team functions.Doing nothing but 5 a sides at training was good enough for the best Liverpool team and other than running round the pitch was all the great Hibs team of the 50s did.

  21. #140
    Coaching Staff The Green Goblin's Avatar
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    I think the biggest problem is the fact that this exact same ďwhatís wrong and how do we fix itĒ discussion over the Scottish national team has been happening for over twenty years. From the looks of the state of the SFA, it will be running for the next twenty as well.

  22. #141
    @hibs.net private member majorhibs's Avatar
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    Scotland- horrible disgusting weather- charge anybody & anything to play football when the weathers crap, bairns cannae go oot in that- why nae players? Go Europe facilities everywhere! Go figure!

  23. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancient hibee View Post
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    Why not ban 11 a side teams for kids.Only 5 a sides and all about playing passes.At 14 move them on to team functions.Doing nothing but 5 a sides at training was good enough for the best Liverpool team and other than running round the pitch was all the great Hibs team of the 50s did.
    I've been saying this for years. Forget about medals and trophies. Work on the ball skills and game awareness then at 14 have friendlies then at 15/16 make it leagues. Everbody wants a medal though. All about ego. You can equate it to the old development league. It doesn't matter who wins it but who develops into a first team player. We have porteous and Shaw which is good and possibly Allan though I think Ben Stirling looks a prospect.

  24. #143
    @hibs.net private member Diclonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Green Goblin View Post
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    I think the biggest problem is the fact that this exact same ďwhatís wrong and how do we fix itĒ discussion over the Scottish national team has been happening for over twenty years. From the looks of the state of the SFA, it will be running for the next twenty as well.
    If there was a league table of European football administrations the SFA would be East Stirlingshire - bottom of the pile and content with it as they're not the ones suffering.

  25. #144
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Can't be bothered reading all 5 pages as I'll more than likely agree with the majority, here's my take on things.

    When the OF started bringing in decent English and Foreigners in the rest of the clubs in the Scottish league started to do the same but with a lesser quality, some worked out and others didn't but it was the amount that came in that stifled the prospects of our younger players due to lack of game time.

    The psyche of the youngster has changed, there used to be thousands of kid all over Scotland kicking a ball around whether it was in the street or in the park, every day you'd see kids playing football. Not now though, kids are barred from kicking balls around, it all has to be organised and it all costs money, strips, pitches and licensed coaching badges. Add into the fact that technology has boomed in the past 35 years and we have many many kids playing computers etc and have little interest in playing football.

    If you have a look back just 25-35 years ago we used to have Scottish teams playing and doing well in European football, all with a team of 11 Scots, Turnbull's Tornadoes is a great example, regular top 3 in the league and dozens of famous wins against top European teams. Also during this time we had many regular players plying their trade in England and across Europe, just look at now when we have less than a handful playing in the top league in England, jeez we had 3-4 in every top English team at one point.

    Finally the greed of the OF and the ease at which lesser teams sell their top players to them all the time, this weakens these teams and allows the OF to carry on winning everything that comes along. They screwed up the TV deal due to the greed when Setanta folded, this took out millions from our game and forced teams to sell their better players and also not able to hold onto these players due to lack of resources.

    There's not one thing you can put your finger on but a culmination of many things that have chipped away at the game here in Scotland, we'll probably never get back to regular qualifications or top European cup games and it's a shame for all the younger fans of the game here.

  26. #145
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.

  27. #146
    Coaching Staff JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calumhibee1 View Post
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    Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.
    Agree think the bigger mistake was the throw out to him rather than his poor touch.

  28. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by calumhibee1 View Post
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    Just saw the highlights this morning. While McGinn may have lost the ball for the first goal, what on Earth was Gordon doing giving it to him in that position? Throwing it to a guy in the middle of the pitch 30 yards from goal with an opponent about 10 yards away is mental. McGinn maybe could have got rid of it but that would have been about the only option available to him because of the ridiculous throw to him.

    Why the hell would you even risk such a pass as it's asking for trouble....

    It's the kind of of mistake I would be giving my 7 year old a look for never mind an experienced international like Gordon who should really know better, McGregor is the far better keeper and should be first choice as Gordon isn't the same player he was before his injury.

  29. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    Agree think the bigger mistake was the throw out to him rather than his poor touch.
    Yeah he could have done better but he should have never been put in that position in the first place.

    Gordon needs dropped as he makes far too many mistakes now and he's a liability.

  30. #149
    @hibs.net private member Spike Mandela's Avatar
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    Remember when we used to have International matches midweek with the league football continuing every weekend and our international team invariably qualified for World Cups.

    Now we have boring international breaks and qualify for **** all.

  31. #150
    @hibs.net private member Diclonius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    The psyche of the youngster has changed, there used to be thousands of kid all over Scotland kicking a ball around whether it was in the street or in the park, every day you'd see kids playing football. Not now though, kids are barred from kicking balls around, it all has to be organised and it all costs money, strips, pitches and licensed coaching badges. Add into the fact that technology has boomed in the past 35 years and we have many many kids playing computers etc and have little interest in playing football.
    This will have happened in every country in Europe. Why has it only affected us?

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