Decline of Scottish National Football Team

[worcesterhibby]

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i agree with this. The middle class thing is simplistic nonsense from boyd.
The sfa have no interest in change which is why mark wotte was forced out.


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this !

[Onceinawhile]

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Too many morons involved in coaching youth football. Lots of middle class kids have parents who are put off by the sheer stupidity of some of the people involved in the game. My eldest played right through boys club age groups and some of the men involved were a disgrace. My two younger boys have never been encouraged to play competitively, I just wouldn't want them exposed to it.

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I have first hand experience of the disasters as a footballing nation we face and while I agree with some of what Boys is saying. I think we hit rock bottom a long time ago.

I’ve watched other coaches screaming at 10 year old boys to punt the ball up the pitch to get rid of it - this was at a 5 a side game on Astro turf. I’ve watched other coaches have training sessions that involved very little football work. I’ve also watched young lads be dropped from what can be considered elite youth teams, because they’re not good enough or can’t afford fees. I’ve coached at a team that charged £30 a month but didn’t have to pay any rental fees. I’ve seen football camps cost up to £1000 pounds for two kids for a 5 week programme- in north Edinburgh.

I'm not long into coaching at the moment, but our 7 a side team have come up against teams like this. We do our best to try and keep the ball (though sometimes you have to go long) but too many parents and coaches on opposite teams (and within our own club) are focused on winning the games at this level. The focus should really be on getting players comfortable on the ball, teaching them how and when to pass and how and when to shoot. But as noted above, it's get the ball up the pitch and try and score. It is really, really frustrating.

Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.

If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

So, so frustrating.

[Keith_M]

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I'm not long into coaching at the moment, but our 7 a side team have come up against teams like this. We do our best to try and keep the ball (though sometimes you have to go long) but too many parents and coaches on opposite teams (and within our own club) are focused on winning the games at this level. The focus should really be on getting players comfortable on the ball, teaching them how and when to pass and how and when to shoot. But as noted above, it's get the ball up the pitch and try and score. It is really, really frustrating.

Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.

If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

So, so frustrating.

I was briefly involved in helping out with the local primary school teams twenty years ago and observed exactly the same. In actual fact, the mothers that attended some of the games were the worst. I even attempted to calm some of them down a couple of times but that was a very dangerous venture.


Sounds like nothing much has changed.

[WhileTheChief..]

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That's been my view for a long time. We need to get boys (and girls) playing with their pals and stop them having to travel 20 miles to join the elite boys team to try and get noticed.

If we need to pay the sports teachers to do it out of normal school hours, then let's do it.

How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

[CentreLine]

Sort of late to the thread but my own twopence worth would be that Scottish International Football started a steep decline when the international v England was abandoned. That was our benchmark and if we could win that game we were satisfied. Equally, if we could win that game it put us right up there amongst the top teams in the world.

It was politics that stopped this oldest of all international matches but it led to a free fall in out standing in international circles.

Reintroduce the England match on an annual basis and our Raison d’etre is restored. May take a couple of seasons but we would soon catch up IMHO

[Peevemor]

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How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

I agree. It's the same here - I live in a wee town with plenty places where kids can have a kick-about but I very rarely see it happen.

France still seem to be doing OK though.

[neil7908]

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How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

But that's surely the case in England, Northern Ireland, France, Holland, Germany etc.

Not having a go at you as no doubt technology is changing things but that's not just in Scotland. The "things were different in my day" doesn't really work when the changes are happening across the globe as well as Scotland.

I'm not sure I have the answer but I know it's not just Fortnite, smartphones etc.

[GreenCastle]

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Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

What an odd view ?

Surely Scotland being successful shouldn’t matter on people’s backgrounds?

Andy Murray / Jamie Murray
Chris Hoy - Watson’s

Scottish Rugby Team

Just a few recent issues examples of players who have had a solid education and doing well.

I’m sorry but Scotland are missing out on a lot of good athletes as they don’t go near private schools.

[Brightside]

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I hope you're never near a coaching role with kids with that ridiculous attitude.

Too many morons involved in coaching youth football. Lots of middle class kids have parents who are put off by the sheer stupidity of some of the people involved in the game. My eldest played right through boys club age groups and some of the men involved were a disgrace. My two younger boys have never been encouraged to play competitively, I just wouldn't want them exposed to it.

Just in case you want to call me a snowdrop (a term only used by fuds), I can reassure you of my working class credentials. I played for many years at a very good amateur standard. However, I am appalled at the moronic culture that surrounded football when I was a boy and was still prevalent when my eldest played ( my laddie was very talented, attracted pro interest and continues to play at a very decent level), it was fairly sickening at times. That puts people off the game, Tarquins or otherwise.

Agree with this. Football coaching is very poor in our country and not helped by what you hear on the side lines - from coaches and parents. Personally i think the coaching badges are a total waste of time and money. Coaching qualification should be done by assessment - go along and watch a coach take a session, take a team then advise of things that should change or be worked on. A coach will learn so much more spending time with good experienced coaches than they will wasting a day with the SFA.

[KeithTheHibby]

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How do we do that?

When I was a kid we all finished school then immediately had a kick about. No teachers, parents or coaches involved.

Now they don't. It's phones, tablets and Nandos etc.

Kids generally don't play nearly as much sport as they did decades ago, it's nobody's fault, it's just the way it is.

To me that is a convenient excuse.

What are kids in Iceland, Belgium, Northern Ireland etc. doing?

There is something seriously wrong with the game in this country given the staggering decline in the last 20 years. The powers that be clearly have no idea how to stop this. Their silence is pathetic. I have pretty much zero respect for the organisations running our game.

[Smartie]

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But that's surely the case in England, Northern Ireland, France, Holland, Germany etc.

Not having a go at you as no doubt technology is changing things but that's not just in Scotland. The "things were different in my day" doesn't really work when the changes are happening across the globe as well as Scotland.

I'm not sure I have the answer but I know it's not just Fortnite, smartphones etc.

There is a subtle difference between the "football in the street" and "playstation, smartphones" argument.

I remember seeing stats on an article a while back in relation to rugby, and it was about the number of people in a particular country who "play that sport regularly". There was a direct correlation between the number of people who play rugby regularly and the quality of the national side. Smaller countries like Ireland, New Zealand or Wales had huge numbers of people per head of population who actually played rugby regularly when compared to much bigger countries like England or France.

I wonder how many Scots genuinely play football regularly compared to Uruguay or Croatia, forgetting for a minute countries like Brazil, Russia or the USA?

I'm speculating here, but if we're not playing enough (or as much), why aren't we playing enough?

That's where the genuine conversation can come in about xboxes, parents' terror of paedophiles around every corner, access to indoor football pitches etc etc.

I've not got that much experience of youth coaching and I have no idea what happens at pro clubs. I have a 9 year old nephew who loves his football and plays for his local team, his dad (himself a former coach) says the standard of coaching, the commitment of the boys to their team and everything like that is faultless. When the national team lose a match and we start slaughtering folk like the guys who run his team, I always get the feeling we're missing the target.

Another thing my brother says - his wee boy plays a couple of times a week in organised football and he loves it, yet he never plays with his pals. Whenever I go over he loves just booting a ball about with me so it's not that he doesn't want to play. In his case it's more that he lives a bit out of the way, somewhere where there are fewer kids around.

[Brightside]

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I have first hand experience of the disasters as a footballing nation we face and while I agree with some of what Boys is saying. I think we hit rock bottom a long time ago.

I’ve watched other coaches screaming at 10 year old boys to punt the ball up the pitch to get rid of it - this was at a 5 a side game on Astro turf. I’ve watched other coaches have training sessions that involved very little football work. I’ve also watched young lads be dropped from what can be considered elite youth teams, because they’re not good enough or can’t afford fees. I’ve coached at a team that charged £30 a month but didn’t have to pay any rental fees. I’ve seen football camps cost up to £1000 pounds for two kids for a 5 week programme- in north Edinburgh.

There’s examples of pro youth teams still charging kids in excess of £35 a month + kit fees. Overall, It’s simply a cost factor with very little experience and football in return.

For me - we need to start again. Coaches need to be paid and given as much experience as they possibly can. Kids need to be given more football time and help with fees. School teams need to become a thing again. Free facilities need to happen now.

What doesn’t help is a local parent coaching without any experience. Also not helped is the amount of ex-pros having football academy’s and charging a fortune. It all needs stripped out and kids need to enjoy playing football again. Pro youth teams need looked at it. We need to stop sending kids down south at such an early age to waste away on a bench or be loaned to some lower league teams. We need to stop pandering to the professional clubs. Not just the Glasgow two but all of them.

I can’t watch Scotland games anymore without laughing through the game at how bad a nation we are.

If parents didn't coach Scottish football would stop tomorrow. There would be almost no Youth football. Every club is supposed to have a Coach Educator. If clubs took that role seriously and the SFA did their job properly we would see continuous improvement of coaching and a better end product. Regional SFA coach coming along to clubs once a month for an education and assessment session.

[G B Young]

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Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

How many top football playing countries are there in the world (ie those which have a realistic chance of winning a major tournament)? Less than 10 I imagine. The rest are makeweights who provide their fans with a fun trip if they qualify. As for having to be built like a tank to play rugby, that's simply not true. You've got to have pace to burn in the back line. And to claim it's all posh boys doesn't stand up to scrutiny either. A good number of Scotland's best current players, such as long-time skipper Greig Laidlaw and superstar full back (and Hibs fan) Stuart Hogg are state-school educated.

Bottom line, the Scotland rugby team hold their own close to the top of an exceptionally high-quality field at international level, something the footballers can only dream of.

[Jones28]

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Rugby is no comparison to football on the international stage. It's played seriously by about 10 countries and unless your built like a tank you can forget it.

I'd be abandoning the national team entirely if it was full of Tarquins and Percivals who were only there as their parents had enough money to send them to private school.

And yet in the Borders it is perceived as the working mans game?

The SRU transformed rugby in this country, the SFA can surely take something from that given that football draws in bigger crowds, more advertising revenue and has at least one club game a week on tele.

As for Kris Boyd, all slaver with no substance whatsoever. All the more concerning is that he doesn’t seem to think we’ve hit rock bottom. How much ****ter do we need to be?

[J-C]

Do we still have working and middle classes? There's still upper class as we've all seen in recent government events but I think the rest get merged together.

I would say the main thing missing is hunger and desire, too many players thinking they've made it when in reality they're only half way there. McGinn being a great example, worked very hard to get where he is, he was one of the better players on Friday and I don't think he came from a poor working class background.

[JeMeSouviens]

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I'm not long into coaching at the moment, but our 7 a side team have come up against teams like this. We do our best to try and keep the ball (though sometimes you have to go long) but too many parents and coaches on opposite teams (and within our own club) are focused on winning the games at this level. The focus should really be on getting players comfortable on the ball, teaching them how and when to pass and how and when to shoot. But as noted above, it's get the ball up the pitch and try and score. It is really, really frustrating.

Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.

If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

So, so frustrating.

"If you don't teach them to be winners, they'll be losers all their life", said the coach of my son's P6 team. He had about two dozen kids turning up to training but picked the biggest/strongest 10 or so and essentially told the rest to bugger off. Then proceeded to play 7 a sides with tactics that would've made Craig Levein blush. Unbelievable.

[YanYansen]

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We are a small country with a small pool of people to choose from for elite sport. Other small countries do better than us and that is where there is understandable cause for concern.

Yes it is indeed. Scotland's population: 5.425m

Croatia: 4.154m
Serbia: 7.022m
ROI: 4.784m
Belgium: 11.35m

So we can dispense with that old chestnut. So what are the other possible factors?

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(To generalise) We are a nation of idle, druggy, drunken negative thinkers who absolutely revel in pointing out the shortcomings or failings of anyone and everyone else - then demand the same people fix all those ills for us.

I realise you're being facetious here, but there's a grain of truth. The Republic of Ireland is probably the best example here. Almost exactly as big as us population-wise, most of their players based in the British Isles, and culturally very similar apart from in on crucial aspect (in my opinion, before anyone starts frothing). That aspect is that they are a fully-fledged country, and consequently don't have the dour, blame-everything-on-powers-beyond-our-control attitude that's so prevalent here (and of course informs the fact that even while we are witnessing lies and incompetence on a truly staggering level in Westminster, there are still people up here who don't think we'd be better off managing our own affairs. But that's another thread...). Anyway -

Factor 1: national psyche.

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Another thing that causes the problem and it's been touched on above, is that almost all football has to be "organised" My eldest's (9) team got beat 4-1 on Saturday morning and I was expecting a reaction, a go out, call on your friends and play football for a few hours and try and improve type reaction. Instead, he wanted to play fortnite all day. I can guarantee, that when we get to training on Wednesday and I ask the boys who all has been out playing football since Saturday that 1 or maybe 2 out of 10 hands will go up.
If folk aren't out there playing with their pals, and learning through doing, what chance have any of them got? Part of the problem as well, is that half of their parents won't let them out of their eyesight. Ohhh i can't walk the 300m to that grass pitch, my mum/dad says it's too far. When the parent themselves would have been allowed a much freer reign!

I think this aspect also can't be ignored. My ex is Romanian, and in her family, quite apart from the fact that Xboxes and the like aren't standard issue in every home, the idea that the kids would be allowed to sit in the house all day is absolutely absurd to them. It doesn't matter if they want to go out or not, they are booted out the door. In Romania, most of the boys would go out and play basketball, weirdly enough, but they play football too, obviously. However, this is really difficult when it's become so ingrained in our culture; i.e. if I was to boot my daughter out the door, there would be no-one else there to actually play with. Nevertheless-

Factor 2: kids indoors too much.

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I agree with this. The middle class thing is simplistic nonsense from Boyd.
The SFA have no interest in change which is why Mark Wotte was forced out.

I'm going to interpret the Kevin de Bruyne thing a little more obliquely. It was noted that he speaks three languages, and I don't think this is an insignificant observation, but it's not related to class, imo. Look at the where the recent starting line-ups of the following teams play their club football:

Belgium: Spain, England, Japan, France, Belgium, Italy.
Serbia: Spain, Italy, Germany, England, Holland.
Croatia: Croatia, Scotland, Turkey, England, Denmark, Italy, Spain, Russia, Germany.

See where I'm going with this?

Scotland: Scotland, England.

I don't think it's insignificant that pretty much 100% of Scottish players seem utterly allergic to pursuing their fortunes overseas, which I think is in large part due to fear of learning other languages. In our entire squad last night, only Johnny Russell plays outside this island (in the USA). I can think of Bates and of course Liam Henderson Delivers (who isn't even in the conversation?), but other than that, you get the drift. Our footballers are incredibly parochial, and I think that has a bearing on being able to adapt to different styles of play at international level, and also in a subtler sense, they are simply not used to being outside their own wee bubble in general, other than transferring to a big hotel in Dubai. So -

Factor 3: Our footballers never leave the domestic scene (or British scene, more accurately).

As a final observation, the Croatian league is also utterly dominated by two teams (Dinamo Zagreb and Hadjuk Split), going back to 1992 its top league has only been won twice outside those two sides. Similarly, going back to 1992, the Serbian league has only been won once by a team other than the Belgrade two, Partizan and Red Star. My instinct though is to say that, related to the above, their players perhaps see playing for the big two sides as simply a stepping-stone to leaving, whereas in Scotland, so many seem satisfied with that being the pinnacle of their career - at best, they will try their hand in England for a wee while.

Factor 4: The Old Firm are not in and of themselves the problem.


So what is to be done? **** knows, I'm afraid. The situation seems endemic, and it doesn't help that the people charged with driving our game seem to have all the vision of a Morningside golf club committee.

[JeMeSouviens]

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How many top football playing countries are there in the world (ie those which have a realistic chance of winning a major tournament)? Less than 10 I imagine. The rest are makeweights who provide their fans with a fun trip if they qualify. As for having to be built like a tank to play rugby, that's simply not true. You've got to have pace to burn in the back line. And to claim it's all posh boys doesn't stand up to scrutiny either. A good number of Scotland's best current players, such as long-time skipper Greig Laidlaw and superstar full back (and Hibs fan) Stuart Hogg are state-school educated.

Bottom line, the Scotland rugby team hold their own close to the top of an exceptionally high-quality field at international level, something the footballers can only dream of.

It didn't used to be true, it is now. You don't stand a glimmer of succeeding at elite level in rugby unless you're willing to put in serious gymn time, and that's the backs as well as the forwards. Steroid abuse is rampant.

Don't agree with your last sentence either. In the 6N, Scotland are routine wooden spoon contenders with Italy. Only England have broken the NZ/Aus/SA stranglehold of the world cup. Ireland/Wales/France could conceivably push into that group. So that's an international elite of 4-7 teams.

[G B Young]

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It didn't used to be true, it is now. You don't stand a glimmer of succeeding at elite level in rugby unless you're willing to put in serious gymn time, and that's the backs as well as the forwards. Steroid abuse is rampant.

Don't agree with your last sentence either. In the 6N, Scotland are routine wooden spoon contenders with Italy. Only England have broken the NZ/Aus/SA stranglehold of the world cup. Ireland/Wales/France could conceivably push into that group. So that's an international elite of 4-7 teams.

Yeh, I agree that international rugby players are a lot fitter and stronger than they were in the amateur era, but putting in some serious gym time should surely be required of all professional sportsmen and women in this day and age. If you check out the fitness routines of, say, Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic, you can see what's required in addition to talent to reach the very top of your sport. Do our footballers really give it their all in terms of preparation?

I don't doubt there's steroid use across a lot of sports (tennis comes under the spotlight a lot) but is abuse really 'rampant' in rugby?

I wasn't saying Scotland are among the elite of world rugby, just pointing out that by and large they manage to remain relatively competitive, even against the top sides - something we can't say about our footballers.

I'd suggest that (for a long time now) you're likely to get better value for money at a Scotland rugby match than watching the football team - perhaps illustrated by the fact over 52k were at a Murrayfield friendly at the same time as Scotland were taking on Russia in a Hampden qualifier in front of 20k fewer fans.

[1875-Hibernia]

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If parents didn't coach Scottish football would stop tomorrow. There would be almost no Youth football. Every club is supposed to have a Coach Educator. If clubs took that role seriously and the SFA did their job properly we would see continuous improvement of coaching and a better end product. Regional SFA coach coming along to clubs once a month for an education and assessment session.

Don’t mistake what I’m saying- I realise the importance of coaching from parents. The time, effort, patience and commitment are only some of the factors they give. What I’m saying is that. And it falls in to what you’ve said. They need better educated. Imo all coaches should be qualified before helping out, which should be paid for by the club or government/ SFA. There should also be assessors every quarter to make sure things are going as should be. As well as learning new practises.

That way it should eradicate the behaviour that we currently see and what I have mentioned.

[Smartie]

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Do we still have working and middle classes? There's still upper class as we've all seen in recent government events but I think the rest get merged together.

I would say the main thing missing is hunger and desire, too many players thinking they've made it when in reality they're only half way there. McGinn being a great example, worked very hard to get where he is, he was one of the better players on Friday and I don't think he came from a poor working class background.

I think there's a very small upper class and a very small group at the other end who live in abject poverty then there is a huge middle ground containing all sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds doing all sorts of jobs but this group will provide 99% of our footballers.

The people who won't be able to afford to pay to play football will be very small and I'm sure if the player had the talent then there would be a way found to get around it.

Football is increasingly expensive but folk make sacrifices to give their kids opportunities. Boyd will hear a lot of moaning about what he charges and that sort of stuff rubs off on you. The bottom line is it must be pretty amazing to be a kid who goes to a Kris Boyd football school, he has his outgoings and charges appropriately. It's wrong to extrapolate that into something it isn't.

[WhileTheChief..]

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What are kids in Iceland, Belgium, Northern Ireland etc. doing?
.

Probably playing a lot more football in the streets than kids here!

Practice makes perfect has been a mantra for thousands of years for a reason.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Yeh, I agree that international rugby players are a lot fitter and stronger than they were in the amateur era, but putting in some serious gym time should surely be required of all professional sportsmen and women in this day and age. If you check out the fitness routines of, say, Andy Murray and Novak Djokovic, you can see what's required in addition to talent to reach the very top of your sport. Do our footballers really give it their all in terms of preparation?

I don't doubt there's steroid use across a lot of sports (tennis comes under the spotlight a lot) but is abuse really 'rampant' in rugby?

I wasn't saying Scotland are among the elite of world rugby, just pointing out that by and large they manage to remain relatively competitive, even against the top sides - something we can't say about our footballers.

I'd suggest that (for a long time now) you're likely to get better value for money at a Scotland rugby match than watching the football team - perhaps illustrated by the fact over 52k were at a Murrayfield friendly at the same time as Scotland were taking on Russia in a Hampden qualifier in front of 20k fewer fans.

Actually it's not just the gymn time. The star of the rugby team my son used to play in has just been discarded from the SRU's elite pathway because he's deemed too small. He's about 5'10" I think and plays stand off. Not slightly built either.

On steroids:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...mpic-games-rio
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...oblem-15313345

I think the Scottish football team have reached the sort of depths the rugby team were in about the time of Frank Hadden.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugb...sh/6389855.stm

To be fair to the rugby team and the SRU, they've turned it a long way round since then.

[Ozyhibby]

To do the kind of revamp of the national game that the Belgians did would require the SFA to spend money. Unfortunately Petrie has a massive infrastructure project at Hampden to do first. Probably get round to it about 2035. We’ll have a great team in 2050.


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[Northern Hibby]

Nothing more depressing than a large grass area with a "No Ball Games" sign, some kids use to kick a ball in front of my house, sometimes it ended up in the garden no biggy, police turned up once cause there had been a complaint (I know who), I said I'd rather see kids playing on it,than some fecken twats precious car parked on it, cause he has to see it from his living room window!!

[ancient hibee]

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I think when Boyd was talking about the "middle class" sport, he wasn't just talking about the money.

I think he mentioned about kids being driven to football matches by their dads, who had to have the time and dedication to take their kids to training and matches. The dads then being their sons biggest critic/supporter, which ever way you want to describe them. He was pointing out that probably half the boys don't really want to play football any way, or at least put in the dedication that you need to be a good footballer.

Whereas the kids Boyd thinks we should be targeting are the kids from the housing schemes, most probably the kids that their fathers don't know / don't care what they get up to during the day. The "rough as ****" kids who would have a certain level of aggression that other kids wouldn't mess with. Now it's all to nice, all to passive - anyone with any aggression would probably be chucked out of the boys club. We've got 4G pitches that no-one can afford to play. We've got "no ball game" signs up preventing boys from playing football.

In my day, there was no organised boys clubs. The only organised football was via the school. We used to have 30 a side games at breaks that then continued after school. In my school team, we had a Scotland internationalist and around 3 or 4 kids who played Highland League to varying standards. I honestly don't recall one game that any dad would come and watch. Not once did I ever get a lift to a match or to football training.

I don't think Boyd is suggesting going back to those days, but the words he said was "the template isn't working guys". I think he's suggesting that we need to get the kids back out playing football with their mates everywhere and anywhere that they can. With the set up we've got now, everything is becoming a barrier to kids developing their raw skills. Kids should be playing with their pals down the street, not being driven miles to attend a boys club 20 miles away in the hope that they get noticed.

Well done Boyd for his rant. It's much needed and about time someone said it.

His ominous summation was that we've not bottomed out yet. I think he's correct.

You must be really,really ancient if there were no boys clubs in your day.In the 1950s I was in Crossroads Boys Clubs,run by the great Eric Gardiner,and even then it was producing players who went on to have good professional careers.

[Brightside]

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Nothing more depressing than a large grass area with a "No Ball Games" sign, some kids use to kick a ball in front of my house, sometimes it ended up in the garden no biggy, police turned up once cause there had been a complaint (I know who), I said I'd rather see kids playing on it,than some fecken twats precious car parked on it, cause he has to see it from his living room window!!

This No Ball Games thing is a red herring. Hundreds of pitches lie empty away from organised football. The culture has just changed in the UK especially. Kids are just allowed to lie about in houses all day/night. And have to carry a water bottle for fear of falling down dead. More and more kids just can't be bothered to play football in their spare time.....ive no idea how that will change if parents arent interested in pushing it and actually parenting.

[Since452]

I'm going to see if i have any Dutch or Italian heritage so i can start following them. It's pish being Scottish. Quite fancy taking in a Euros/World cup and i ain't supporting England.

[WhileTheChief..]

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More and more kids just can't be bothered to play football in their spare time..

Summed up nicely.

They want the instant glory and success but don't want to have to put in any effort to get it.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Summed up nicely.

They want the instant glory and success but don't want to have to put in any effort to get it.

Or maybe they just enjoy video games more than playing football.