Decline of Scottish National Football Team

[SChibs]

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Completely agree.

IMO these daft friendlies have gone a long way to destroying the confidence and momentum that had started to build under Strachan.

Who would it be that decides these friendlies? Would we have received a lot of money for playing them?

I'd like to think it wasn't the case but from the outside looking in it looks to me like the south america jaunt at the end of the season would only really benefit the blazers who would get a free holiday and the games against Belgium and Portugal would be so that they could meet some of the best players in the world.

I don't think there would have been one thing we could take from these games that we could use when playing teams of an equivalent standard to us in the European League.

To flip it on its head we are the weaker team these other sides are using to build confidence. Fair enough play a better team every so often to test us against better players but yo play 4 of these games in a row is almost worthless

[Ozyhibby]

It’s not just facilities that are the problem. We need coaches. In Iceland you need a UEFA B license just to coach under 10’s. It’s not needed at all here unless you coach pro youth.
The SFA see providing coaching courses as a money spinner. They charge a fortune for them.
The Germans charge less than half what the SFA charge.
I coach in youth footy but class myself as just a parent helper. I have seen the difference bringing in a great coach can make for kids.
We will never improve until we start providing top quality coaches for kids.


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[bingo70]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/45878767

These sort of articles really annoy me.

We're not *****, it's just our expectations are too high? I don't think our expectations could currently be any lower? Is he asking us just to accept being crap because, frankly, we are?

He's obviously sticking up for his mate as best he can but what really is the point in that story? He's not everyones cup of tea but i'm far more interested in what the likes of Chris Sutton has to say when it comes to matters like these, at least he'll give an honest opinion.

Other depressing thing from that article is that Lambert will probably be one of the leading candidates to get the job when Mcleish inevitably moves on shortly.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Berti got found out after the team he inherited from Beckenbauer past it's sell by date. The same can now be seen with Jogi Löwe, he inherited his world cup winning side from Klinsmann but it's falling apart because he just doesn't have the know how to replace his ageing team.

Klinsmann left Germany in 2006, after only 2 years. Germany won the world cup in 2014. Only 5 players that won the world cup played under Klinsmann. Lowe build that team and he's the one failing to replace it now.

Guardiola had more impact on the 2014 Germany team than Klinsmann tbh.

[ian cruise]

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Most countries don’t give two hoots about rowing and velodrome cycling but most countries are mad about football.

I’m a paid up member of the Scotland Supporters Club and the performances under McLeish barring the game at home to Albania haven’t been good enough. McLeish will go if we don’t get 4 points from the next two fixtures.

Beyond that, the poor showing of the national team since qualifying for WC ‘98 has a myriad of reasons well covered in previous threads. As when Hibs went down recently, I cling onto the hope better days are somewhere down the line.

Regarding the success GB has had with cycling, that's exactly the model Scottish Football needs to follow. They ripped apart the whole UK cycling model and started again.

Created an academy to make sure they could work with and monitor the best young cyclists, employ world class coaches to make sure they nurtured their potential, gave them top class facilities to train and learn, looked at other sports and industries to see what technology they could use that others were not to give them the upper hand. It was based on the moneyball approach, great book and film by the way, where you looked for marginal gains instead of immediate success.

The national coach get very little time with players so there no point getting in some e who's brilliant on the training ground or excellent at maintaining fitness within the group over season. You need someone who understands tactics and can motivate players. Look at the opposition and find their weaknesses, find a formation to take advantage of those and counteract their strengths and pick the layers who fit that position best. If that means you leave out a "better" player for someone who is more industrious and would fit the role better so be it. England failed over the last few decades because they kept trying to squeeze their big names in to one starting 11, even though it appeared they could perform as a unit.

[Onceinawhile]

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It’s not just facilities that are the problem. We need coaches. In Iceland you need a UEFA B license just to coach under 10’s. It’s not needed at all here unless you coach pro youth.
The SFA see providing coaching courses as a money spinner. They charge a fortune for them.
The Germans charge less than half what the SFA charge.
I coach in youth footy but class myself as just a parent helper. I have seen the difference bringing in a great coach can make for kids.
We will never improve until we start providing top quality coaches for kids.


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It's only £45 for level 1.1 and £60 for level 1.2 and 1.3

So to get up to level 1.3 it's only £165 for 30 hours of courses - doesn't seem too expensive? Although level 2 and Advanced children's licence are a bit more expensive.

[hibsbollah]

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It's only £45 for level 1.1 and £60 for level 1.2 and 1.3

So to get up to level 1.3 it's only £165 for 30 hours of courses - doesn't seem too expensive? Although level 2 and Advanced children's licence are a bit more expensive.

Thats only giving you the absolute basics. And for a decent sized boys club you're going to have multiple coaches for multiple age groups and abilities. So a thousand pounds for six coaches to get to level two. That's a lot when you have a lot of other financial demands. The SFA are absolutely raking it in from the boys clubs whilst providing duplicate, competent but essentially repetitive 'how to' coaching they call The Pathway that in most cases you can get as good off you tube.

[Ozyhibby]

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It's only £45 for level 1.1 and £60 for level 1.2 and 1.3

So to get up to level 1.3 it's only £165 for 30 hours of courses - doesn't seem too expensive? Although level 2 and Advanced children's licence are a bit more expensive.

Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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[Smartie]

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Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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This is quite an interesting story.

I don't know a great deal about kids coaching - what specifically does this guy do differently or better than you did?

[silverhibee]

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This is quite an interesting story.

I don't know a great deal about kids coaching - what specifically does this guy do differently or better than you did?

I would guess being a ex pro would be the big factor, knowledge experience and he has been trained by coaches himself and will know how to treat different individuals at training and games, as Ozzy has said, he took over his sons team and had to learn it in a few months, ex pro walks in and he will be able to see where it is going wrong and work to make it better.

[Ozyhibby]

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This is quite an interesting story.

I don't know a great deal about kids coaching - what specifically does this guy do differently or better than you did?

Very hard to say that it was any one thing as he changed loads. The way he built training sessions with very clear objectives aimed improving the way we play the game on a Sunday was probably the biggest factor but there were other things like the way he speaks to the boys like they are footballers and even the way they warm up before games. There were loads of changes.
I was not a novice coach either, I have coached these kids for 7 years since they were 5 and we have done well all through 4-a-side and 7-a-side. We also sent 5 kids to pro youth. There are few other great parent coaches involved as well and we done ok but every time we have managed to get in a proper coach you realise the difference it can make.


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[hibsbollah]

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Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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I think the way you describe this situation reflects well on you to be honest. From my experience in kids football, dads that get sent on the SFA level one often come back thinking they're some sort of tactical genius and their egos start to visibly grow. Very few people in that world actually knows their limitations, it sounds like you are the exception.

An ex pro doesn't always translate into a good manager or coach, of course; an ex-semi pro dad of one of my players recently decided to put an upset kid in a headlock and rubbed his head in an attempt to give a bit of a 'banter' and the kid stormed off in tears because it hurt him! The dad was probably mortified, and he knows what he's doing in terms of technique etc, but I'm not sure he's very good at motivating or inspiring people. Lots of footballers don't understand what it was that made them good or how their skills worked in a team environment.

And of course, coaching U11s is very different from 14+.

[Smartie]

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Very hard to say that it was any one thing as he changed loads. The way he built training sessions with very clear objectives aimed improving the way we play the game on a Sunday was probably the biggest factor but there were other things like the way he speaks to the boys like they are footballers and even the way they warm up before games. There were loads of changes.
I was not a novice coach either, I have coached these kids for 7 years since they were 5 and we have done well all through 4-a-side and 7-a-side. We also sent 5 kids to pro youth. There are few other great parent coaches involved as well and we done ok but every time we have managed to get in a proper coach you realise the difference it can make.


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Do you think that the stuff he has done is unique to him, or is it stuff you can pick up and take forward?

Rather than getting in better coaches, could we not just keep on developing the likes of yourself to add to what you already have?

Do the players respond a bit better to being coached by a glamorous ex-pro rather than Boab's Dad?

I maintain that what we lack most are people like yourself - volunteers who facilitate the playing of football, whether it is a Dad being prepared to kick a ball with his kid in the park/ garden or helping out at something more organised. We need to get as many people as possible playing the game and loving the game and I don't think we do it enough. The fancier coaching exists and is in place for those lucky/ good enough to make the grade.

[majorhibs]

Sorry no time for thread in depth, decline of Scotland was roxburgh followed by brown negative disasters exact same as disaster a miller for Hibs. Excuses for coaches with excuses & negativity before balls kicked! Sorry but that was them! Despise what they did to the teams I follow. If you paid attention then you’ll realise this. These jokers tried to excuse they’re failures before they’d even happened, & it ruined any chance of moving forward, with these useless apologists running the show.

[Tornadoes70]

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Sorry no time for thread in depth, decline of Scotland was roxburgh followed by brown negative disasters exact same as disaster a miller for Hibs. Excuses for coaches with excuses & negativity before balls kicked! Sorry but that was them! Despise what they did to the teams I follow. If you paid attention then you’ll realise this. These jokers tried to excuse they’re failures before they’d even happened, & it ruined any chance of moving forward, with these useless apologists running the show.

Managed us to league cup glory very soon after our darkest moments. The Skol Cup win is still the most memorable achievement in our recent club history bar of course the holy grail. Say what you like about Alex Miller but he gave some of us one of our greatest memories after many years of drought.

Mon the Cabbage!!!

[MWHIBBIES]

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Sorry no time for thread in depth, decline of Scotland was roxburgh followed by brown negative disasters exact same as disaster a miller for Hibs. Excuses for coaches with excuses & negativity before balls kicked! Sorry but that was them! Despise what they did to the teams I follow. If you paid attention then you’ll realise this. These jokers tried to excuse they’re failures before they’d even happened, & it ruined any chance of moving forward, with these useless apologists running the show.

Yeah, 20 years of not qualifying is because of a few interviews you disagreed with in the 90s. Little more to it than that.

[Ozyhibby]

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Do you think that the stuff he has done is unique to him, or is it stuff you can pick up and take forward?

Rather than getting in better coaches, could we not just keep on developing the likes of yourself to add to what you already have?

Do the players respond a bit better to being coached by a glamorous ex-pro rather than Boab's Dad?

I maintain that what we lack most are people like yourself - volunteers who facilitate the playing of football, whether it is a Dad being prepared to kick a ball with his kid in the park/ garden or helping out at something more organised. We need to get as many people as possible playing the game and loving the game and I don't think we do it enough. The fancier coaching exists and is in place for those lucky/ good enough to make the grade.

We need both. We need and always will need the parent volunteers. They are crucial and are needed at every club at every level and I agree there is not enough as most clubs in Edinburgh are regularly turning kids away as there are no spots left. But we also need people who have had the experience and education to coach these kids to a higher standard.
The next stage for me if I was to carry on would be a 5 day course which means time off work and it costs about £300 and odd pound. That is still not the level that other Euro nations are insisting every team has. There is a massive level of technical knowledge that I just don’t have and don’t have the time to get.
There are lots of young coaches out there but these coaching courses are expensive and there is no money to be made as a reward for a young guy wanting to do it.
The SFA need to look at making it easier for people to get as far as their B license at least but also find a way of funding them to go work at grassroots clubs. That is the hardest part obviously but other countries are managing to do it. Even if they only done it for the teams in the top division in each region it could make a massive difference.


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[Haymaker]

Football starts at home. Parents need to engage their kids with a ball as early as possible - not just kicking it but using both feet, all the surfaces, stop and change direction etc.

It makes a massive difference if a kid has the basic skills when they appear at organised football.

[hibsbollah]

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We need both. We need and always will need the parent volunteers. They are crucial and are needed at every club at every level and I agree there is not enough as most clubs in Edinburgh are regularly turning kids away as there are no spots left. But we also need people who have had the experience and education to coach these kids to a higher standard.
The next stage for me if I was to carry on would be a 5 day course which means time off work and it costs about £300 and odd pound. That is still not the level that other Euro nations are insisting every team has. There is a massive level of technical knowledge that I just don’t have and don’t have the time to get.
There are lots of young coaches out there but these coaching courses are expensive and there is no money to be made as a reward for a young guy wanting to do it.
The SFA need to look at making it easier for people to get as far as their B license at least but also find a way of funding them to go work at grassroots clubs. That is the hardest part obviously but other countries are managing to do it. Even if they only done it for the teams in the top division in each region it could make a massive difference.


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Agree with every word of that.

[mjhibby]

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Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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I think it a bit off calling them dad's courses especially the 1.3. I suspect your guys improved hearing a different voice and different methods. Plus winning of course helps confidence and guys then listen more. Get the spine of the team right and the rest follows. The cost of courses after 1.3 are ridiculous plus mean taking up half your hols at work. The issue is some poor coaches but this is coaches who are interested in winning. We've had it this season when teams at kids level are time wasting with twenty mins to go. My biggest hunch is too many kids think they are Messi and don't want to learn, simple as that. I see my lads basketball team and boy do they train at the max and put a huge effort in every game. Their coach is laid back, praises only when plans are fully completed and coaches when it's not done. They have improved exactly the as you've said but it's come from the kids willingness to listen and learn. It still comes down as far as I'm concerned to ball control. Get that right and the rest will follow.

[JimBHibees]

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Berti got found out after the team he inherited from Beckenbauer past it's sell by date. The same can now be seen with Jogi Löwe, he inherited his world cup winning side from Klinsmann but it's falling apart because he just doesn't have the know how to replace his ageing team.

Bertie won Euro 96 as a coach did he not.

[JimBHibees]

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Thats only giving you the absolute basics. And for a decent sized boys club you're going to have multiple coaches for multiple age groups and abilities. So a thousand pounds for six coaches to get to level two. That's a lot when you have a lot of other financial demands. The SFA are absolutely raking it in from the boys clubs whilst providing duplicate, competent but essentially repetitive 'how to' coaching they call The Pathway that in most cases you can get as good off you tube.

You also need to renew every 4 years I think to maintain your certificates.

[mjhibby]

I'd like to take all the badges but I doubt I'd get a chance as an over 50 with no connection to a club. The Largs influence is still prevelant I'm afraid.

[Smartie]

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I'd like to take all the badges but I doubt I'd get a chance as an over 50 with no connection to a club. The Largs influence is still prevelant I'm afraid.

Is it not just a simple case of stumping up and going along?

Obviously you'd need to have somewhere sorted to use your qualifications afterwards but clubs are often crying out for qualified people to help, especially at lower age levels?

[Ozyhibby]

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Is it not just a simple case of stumping up and going along?

Obviously you'd need to have somewhere sorted to use your qualifications afterwards but clubs are often crying out for qualified people to help, especially at lower age levels?

100% correct


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[Onceinawhile]

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Those are ‘Dads’ courses though. They are very basic. The standard that other countries are educating their coaches to are much higher.
I was head coach of my sons team until about 2 months ago. We were struggling badly even though I felt we had a lot of decent wee players.
Every week I would try and work out where we are going wrong, moving kids around, changing formation etc. Nothing was working and I was beginning to think maybe some of the kids should be in a lower team.
We got very lucky when a new kid pitched up who’s dad was an ex pro and had his UEFA A license. We immediately started to ask if he could help out and eventually persuaded him to become head coach.
The difference he has made in two short months is massive. All the kids are playing with confidence again and results have followed. None of them now look out of place in that team and their improvement is massive, including my own lad.
That’s just one team though and it was just dumb luck that he chose our team for his kid but if we could do that with every kids team in the country I guarantee that the quality of player we produce would massively improve.


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That's an interesting post.

I'm just starting to help out my boy's team after they asked for extra coaches. All the current coaches are 1.2 and one is 1.3 and the difference in training since the boy with 1.3 came on board has been pretty obvious as well. A lot of it though is just natural development and them starting to understand the game though Imo.

I'm not sure someone else with much more experience / badges would be able to improve them further.

[Ozyhibby]

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That's an interesting post.

I'm just starting to help out my boy's team after they asked for extra coaches. All the current coaches are 1.2 and one is 1.3 and the difference in training since the boy with 1.3 came on board has been pretty obvious as well. A lot of it though is just natural development and them starting to understand the game though Imo.

I'm not sure someone else with much more experience / badges would be able to improve them further.

You say yourself that a 1.3 level coach made improvements on what the 1.2 guys were doing. Who knows how much they could improve with someone else even more qualified? Maybe not at all, as it could be that your 1.3 coach is excellent.
I suppose it’s a case of ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’. If your club is able to raise funds, then why not try bringing in a more qualified coach for a session a week. They usually charge about £30 a session (finding the right guy is the hard part but they are out there). Even if it doesn’t work out, it can good for the boys to hear a different voice for a few weeks.


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[Smartie]

I must admit I've always fancied getting involved in coaching but never really got round to it. I've had a lot of at work for the past few years, and always thought that a single male with no kids wanting to coach kids football would seem a bit weird.

I have a wee girl now though, and my mate coaches girls "soccer" in the USA for a living and absolutely loves it. It's something that I might look seriously into over the next few years.

I've really enjoyed these threads about grassroots coaching and the specifics of it. It seems a world away from former Old Firm players sitting on panel shows bickering about how many teams we should have in our top league.

The fact that such discussions are happening somewhere strangely gives me a bit of hope that things might improve in future.

[JimBHibees]

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We need both. We need and always will need the parent volunteers. They are crucial and are needed at every club at every level and I agree there is not enough as most clubs in Edinburgh are regularly turning kids away as there are no spots left. But we also need people who have had the experience and education to coach these kids to a higher standard.
The next stage for me if I was to carry on would be a 5 day course which means time off work and it costs about £300 and odd pound. That is still not the level that other Euro nations are insisting every team has. There is a massive level of technical knowledge that I just don’t have and don’t have the time to get.
There are lots of young coaches out there but these coaching courses are expensive and there is no money to be made as a reward for a young guy wanting to do it.
The SFA need to look at making it easier for people to get as far as their B license at least but also find a way of funding them to go work at grassroots clubs. That is the hardest part obviously but other countries are managing to do it. Even if they only done it for the teams in the top division in each region it could make a massive difference.


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Did the C licence course recently at Oriam and thought it was good. First day was a Saturday and then a Thursday and Friday practice day and then Thursday and Friday assessment both 2 weeks apart. The main difference was team shaping exercises which were interesting and challenging. Was enjoyable. If you are linked with a community rated club you get a 50 per cent discount so cost is about 150 or so.

[A Hi-Bee]

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You say yourself that a 1.3 level coach made improvements on what the 1.2 guys were doing. Who knows how much they could improve with someone else even more qualified? Maybe not at all, as it could be that your 1.3 coach is excellent.
I suppose it’s a case of ‘you don’t know what you don’t know’. If your club is able to raise funds, then why not try bringing in a more qualified coach for a session a week. They usually charge about £30 a session (finding the right guy is the hard part but they are out there). Even if it doesn’t work out, it can good for the boys to hear a different voice for a few weeks.


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Don’t think there was many coaches around in the days when we could at least compete with the best, perhaps to much couching from the wrong coaches these days, and we could do with so many more continental type facilities. Every town in Germany has at least one swimming pool along with loads of full size football pitches and non of them vandalised either. At least not when I was running around there.