Hillsborough commander to face manslaughter charges

[tamig]

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Is that a job for the police though? Is it not more a question of stewarding? I'm not looking to defend or contradict anyone, it's just that I honestly don't know.

He was the match commander. Stewards play a much more prominent role now than they did back in the 80s. The match commander now - like then - assumes full responsibilty for crowd control.

[tamig]

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I think you overestimate the CCTV that was available way back then !

A lot of poor decisions were made that day with tragic consequences. No one intended people to lose their lives as a result of decisions made. In fact all decisions were made to try and get everyone to see the game.

It wasn’t HD quality and was grainy for sure. However, I’m sure we’ve all seen footage from the cameras on the day and it was pretty clear what was unfolding. It doesn’t appear as if he took the right corrective action. Fatal mistake and he was ultimately responsible.

[StevieC]

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I think you overestimate the CCTV that was available way back then !

A lot of poor decisions were made that day with tragic consequences. No one intended people to lose their lives as a result of decisions made. In fact all decisions were made to try and get everyone to see the game.

I think anyone that attended games in the 80's will appreciate the total disdain afforded to football supporters by the police and those in authority. Treated like ****, hearded like cattle. Yes, it was the era of the football hooligan but ALL supporters were treated the same way, including women and children.

It could be argued that it still goes on today, if trips to Ibrox are anything to go by.

[hibsbollah]

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I think anyone that attended games in the 80's will appreciate the total disdain afforded to football supporters by the police and those in authority. Treated like ****, hearded like cattle. Yes, it was the era of the football hooligan but ALL supporters were treated the same way, including women and children.

It could be argued that it still goes on today, if trips to Ibrox are anything to go by.

Correct. It was police and government policy, especially after the Luton Millwall riot.

[Scouse Hibee]

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It wasn’t HD quality and was grainy for sure. However, I’m sure we’ve all seen footage from the cameras on the day and it was pretty clear what was unfolding. It doesn’t appear as if he took the right corrective action. Fatal mistake and he was ultimately responsible.

The biggest mystery to me and it always has been is how lessons were not learned from the semi final the year before against the same opposition at the same venue. I was in the Leppings Lane centre pens and crushed to ****, the most worried I have ever been about my safety. Hence my decision not to go in that same area a year later.

[Skol]

Attending football back then was a very different experience to that we have today.The approach to policing was poor, but then again there was a very unsavoury element that caused problems every week which made their jobs even more difficult.

Through no fault of my own I was in quite few quite scary incidents and the vast majority were as a direct result of the behaviour of fans. Granted some were caused or not helped by police. The worst of these actually took place not far from Anfield where the police and Liverpool fans were badly at fault.

We are in danger of applying 2018 standards to events of 1989.

[Devonhibs]

The match commander now - like then - assumes full responsibilty for crowd control.[/QUOTE]

Incorrect. The responsibility for crowd safety within grounds nowadays sits firmly with the clubs and their safety manager. Hence very few cops in the grounds anymore. They are responsible for maintain order and dealing with disorder outside the grounds in the public area.

[Devonhibs]

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The biggest mystery to me and it always has been is how lessons were not learned from the semi final the year before against the same opposition at the same venue. I was in the Leppings Lane centre pens and crushed to ****, the most worried I have ever been about my safety. Hence my decision not to go in that same area a year later.

Duckenfield never received any specific training on how to run a policing operation like this. He picked up the role simply because he became the senior officer in that division at the time. There was no proper mechanism to hand over the experience when one senior officer moved on etc.

All police officers involved in policing high profile sporting events nowadays receive lots of training alongside their counterparts, like the safety officer at the grounds. I have have training to deal with public order situations although not at the level of match commander, more boots on the ground. This was one of the few positives to come out of Hillsborough. Whilst the focus is on him, there are others facing action, including the safety officer employed by the club.

[mca]

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Attending football back then was a very different experience to that we have today.The approach to policing was poor, but then again there was a very unsavoury element that caused problems every week which made their jobs even more difficult.

I attended a game at Hillsborough 10th sept 1988 v Coventry city.. The police were still in Miners Strike mode.. !!!

They really were against the public back then.. cops were nicking people for looking at them and the Crowds were pretty rowdy.. bottles getting thrown and smashed for no reason... Just mad with it yorkies and brummies i suppose ... but the cops were loving a riot...

Was my first english game on my own and as a 14yr old i was scared effing witless and only a crowd of 15k..


As a Big Liverpool fan - im kinda glad my folks stopped me from going to sheffield for that game.. JFT96 x

[tamig]

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The match commander now - like then - assumes full responsibilty for crowd control.

Incorrect. The responsibility for crowd safety within grounds nowadays sits firmly with the clubs and their safety manager. Hence very few cops in the grounds anymore. They are responsible for maintain order and dealing with disorder outside the grounds in the public area.

Sorry about that then. When did that change take place then? Was it part of the Taylor Report?

[superfurryhibby]

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I think anyone that attended games in the 80's will appreciate the total disdain afforded to football supporters by the police and those in authority. Treated like ****, hearded like cattle. Yes, it was the era of the football hooligan but ALL supporters were treated the same way, including women and children.

It could be argued that it still goes on today, if trips to Ibrox are anything to go by.

This is the bottom line. The Police covered up their negligent role and the media backed them up to the hilt.

Clubs were also culpable and grounds should have been made safer decades earlier than they were. For those too young to have experienced a full terracing, it was absolutely terrifying at times. Not just because of hooliganism or drink taken, also the sheer weight of numbers. I’ll also never forget being off my feet trying to enter Tynecastle, Gorgie Road end in September 1973, literally lifted and shifted.

When you watch what unfolded at Hillsborough, it was truly unforgivable and totally avoidable. Those in charge made poor decisions and ultimately tragedy unfolded. Heartbreaking even now.

[Keith_M]

What about the other Police, and the Politicians, involved in the cover up of the day's events?

[Tynie01011973]

Love the hypocrisy of this, chase down people to blame for 23years yet totally ignore Heysel,where only 13 fans were jailed for the murder of Juve fans

[tamig]

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Love the hypocrisy of this, chase down people to blame for 23years yet totally ignore Heysel,where only 13 fans were jailed for the murder of Juvenile fans

That would suggest Heysel wasn’t ignored. Nobody’s done time for Hillsborough - yet.

[Scouse Hibee]

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Duckenfield never received any specific training on how to run a policing operation like this. He picked up the role simply because he became the senior officer in that division at the time. There was no proper mechanism to hand over the experience when one senior officer moved on etc.

All police officers involved in policing high profile sporting events nowadays receive lots of training alongside their counterparts, like the safety officer at the grounds. I have have training to deal with public order situations although not at the level of match commander, more boots on the ground. This was one of the few positives to come out of Hillsborough. Whilst the focus is on him, there are others facing action, including the safety officer employed by the club.

Yes I am aware of his lack of training and many other shortfalls that were highlighted during the enquiry. One of the poorest decisions made was his appointment as match commander.

[Scouse Hibee]

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Love the hypocrisy of this, chase down people to blame for 23years yet totally ignore Heysel,where only 13 fans were jailed for the murder of Juvenile fans

Think you need to read your own contradiction and try again.

[Mick O'Rourke]

Its not just about Duckenfield
The cover up and lies will come out of the upcoming trials
A lawyer and 2 other police officers have also been charged.
Perveting the course of justice carries serious penalties
The families of the victims are entitled to see those responsible and also the liars brought to justice.

[Bostonhibby]

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Its not just about Duckenfield
The cover up and lies will come out of the upcoming trials
A lawyer and 2 other police officers have also been charged.
Perveting the course of justice carries serious penalties
The families of the victims are entitled to see those responsible and also the liars brought to justice.

Hopefully there's proper scrutiny to a criminal evidence standard of the senior police officers decision to have other officers alter their statements.

Interesting to note the chief constable at the time is seeking to avoid the proceedings as well.



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[pacorosssco]

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Is that a job for the police though? Is it not more a question of stewarding? I'm not looking to defend or contradict anyone, it's just that I honestly don't know.

Police are paid stewards. They are in charge

[pacorosssco]

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Its not just about Duckenfield
The cover up and lies will come out of the upcoming trials
A lawyer and 2 other police officers have also been charged.
Perveting the course of justice carries serious penalties
The families of the victims are entitled to see those responsible and also the liars brought to justice.

Yes 30 years of lies. After unlawful death verdict the charges should have been made immediately

[heretoday]

I don't envy this guy.

[pacorosssco]

The police on day were badly let down too. Had to face the horror then be forced into cover up. As public servants they should also be able to bring charge against leaders

[JimBHibees]

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The police on day were badly let down too. Had to face the horror then be forced into cover up. As public servants they should also be able to bring charge against leaders

They were however they would know what they were doing was wrong in the aftermath but very few if any spoke out about it which is imo shameful. Culture of the time was Thatchers Britain, miners strike and riots at collieries including in South Yorkshire region.

[superfurryhibby]

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They were however they would know what they were doing was wrong in the aftermath but very few if any spoke out about it which is imo shameful. Culture of the time was Thatchers Britain, miners strike and riots at collieries including in South Yorkshire region.

Indeed, there was a toxicity to the policing of that era, supported by the government of the day. The miners, hippies (Stonehenge) and football fans all suffered for it. An era when corruption was rife. People died from faling down the stairs after being arrested and innocents were jailed for crimes they never committed.

Post industrial Britain was a mess. Corruption was rife and those in power acted with impunity. As the scandals of establishment perversion have revealed in recent years, there was no limit to their deviant ways.

Hillsborough was inevitable and at the same time entirely avoidable. Football authorities played their part too. Everyone knew that the decrepit stadia of that era were unfit and unsafe, no one acted. Moneyand contempt for fans prevailed. Ibrox, Bradford, Heysel, Hillsborough..... a role of shame.

[Devonhibs]

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Sorry about that then. When did that change take place then? Was it part of the Taylor Report?

Yes, this was the catalyst for lots of change for the police and local authorities. Much of which is contained within two publications called the blue and purple guide (I might have got the colours wrong). One covers design of sports stadia and the other covers planning by all for a safe event.

[HappyAsHellas]

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The biggest mystery to me and it always has been is how lessons were not learned from the semi final the year before against the same opposition at the same venue. I was in the Leppings Lane centre pens and crushed to ****, the most worried I have ever been about my safety. Hence my decision not to go in that same area a year later.

I believe the cop in charge the previous year closed the gates on the main road to ease the crushing. Why this wasn't done on the fateful day has to be scrutinised.

[spike220]

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The evidence to put this man on trial has been around since 1995. Which is when I first read Phil Scrutons first report on the disaster when I was at uni.

Maybe twenty three years is the optimum time for justice to be applied to those in positions of power? Maybe in another ten years we'll start to see convictions in say, the knowing collusion of the police, the BBC, the Home Office et al in burying evidence in the Jimmy Saville case?

But in the meantime we'll be told that evidence that challenges official accounts are always 'conspiracy theories'

I dont know what i find more shocking. The fact that the evidence has been around since 1995, or the fact that Hibsbollah went to uni!

[Bristolhibby]

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The local authority/council made the decision to clad the building with the material,now said to be the main cause of the fire spreading so quickly.

They installed this cladding at the behest of the more affluent neighbours in the manor who felt the tower and its exterior was an "eyesore"

The "blame" lies with those councillors and contractors who installed the material,which it has since been revealed is banned for such use in most European countries and the USA.

This is so obviously the issue. It’s dumbfounding that we are pissing about throwing genuine heroes under the bus.

Councillors, manufacturers and safety inspectors are to blame.

J

[Galahibby]

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This thread is going away from Hillsborough I know, but I remember when Jimmy Saville died, and nothing was in the media about his child rapery until the following year.

There was a RIP thread on here, and in the middle of it all Doddie (I'm not sure if he posts on here anymore) said his father told him stories that Saville tried to get kids into his sleeper cabin, when Doddies dad worked on the railways. I remember thinking that was a bit harsh on a rip thread since it was only a bit of hearsay. 6 months later and the truth about him is the biggest story on the news for weeks.

I keep thinking if someone like Doddies dad knew about Saville, and casually talked about it, how many hundreds of other people must have known what he was up to, which must have included countless people who would have the power to stop it. His connection with senior policemen, politicians and organised crime have been well documented. But no prosecutions for those who kept it quiet. Meanwhile hundreds maybe thousands of lives are damaged forever. Crazy.

My ex was in the police, and it was common knowledge as far back as the early 90s that Saville wasn't the national treasure he was made out to be. Beggars belief (sorry, that phrase has been ruined by Jim Traynor!) that nothing was done about him when he was still alive 😡

[allezsauzee]

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My ex was in the police, and it was common knowledge as far back as the early 90s that Saville wasn't the national treasure he was made out to be. Beggars belief (sorry, that phrase has been ruined by Jim Traynor!) that nothing was done about him when he was still alive 😡

Given that we have possibly the most intrusive media in the world, I think questions have to be asked as to what the tabloids were covering up about Saville & Co. As far as the Sun's treatment of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough goes, Kelvin McKenzie should have been held personally accountable for the lies that were spread in the same way that the Match commander is belatedly being held accountable.