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  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
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    The unfortunate side of it. There was a video of the Armadale incident and there was a lady giving commentary and she was enjoying it, it was like she was getting a sense of euphoria from it.


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  3. #62
    Iím starting to wonder if any of these 14 year olds Iíve been speaking to online are who they say they are.


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  4. #63
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotchCorner View Post
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    Iím starting to wonder if any of these 14 year olds Iíve been speaking to online are who they say they are.


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    An interesting post

  5. #64
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    I happened to read one of these scandal sheets at work yesterday. Take a Break, or Bella or something like that.

    In it a lady told how she had a relationship with a guy who was busted in a sting by the police for trying to procure a child. Turns out he had been a member of one of these vigilante groups.

    It is a perfect foil to meet other paedophiles.

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chic Murray View Post
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    I happened to read one of these scandal sheets at work yesterday. Take a Break, or Bella or something like that.

    In it a lady told how she had a relationship with a guy who was busted in a sting by the police for trying to procure a child. Turns out he had been a member of one of these vigilante groups.

    It is a perfect foil to meet other paedophiles.
    Iíve had a suspicion that some of the folk in these groups are paedos themselves. Iíve no idea how these stings by the vigelantes work but surely they end up chatting to actual children in an inappropriate manner themselves.

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    I’ve had a suspicion that some of the folk in these groups are paedos themselves. I’ve no idea how these stings by the vigelantes work but surely they end up chatting to actual children in an inappropriate manner themselves.
    I think (guess?) the way they work is to set themselves up with fake personas online... eg that of a 14 year old girl... and wait for others to contact them. Anything else could be seen as entrapment.

  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I think (guess?) the way they work is to set themselves up with fake personas online... eg that of a 14 year old girl... and wait for others to contact them. Anything else could be seen as entrapment.
    That's how I understand it. They never make the first contact: they await contact then immediately tell the person they are underage. That person should, of course, then end the conversation and report the profile; those who don't are immediately breaking law, even if the chat isn't sexual.
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  9. #68
    Entrapment only applies to the police/ official bodies. One person canít be done for entrapment when snaring a nonce.

    I donít think these hunter groups are a good idea from what I have seen.


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  10. #69
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    That's how I understand it. They never make the first contact: they await contact then immediately tell the person they are underage. That person should, of course, then end the conversation and report the profile; those who don't are immediately breaking law, even if the chat isn't sexual.
    Am I reading you right here? It's against the law for an adult to chat online with a minor?

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  11. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Am I reading you right here? It's against the law for an adult to chat online with a minor?

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    Think itís over 5 messages, sexual or not, can be classed as grooming.


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  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScotchCorner View Post
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    Think itís over 5 messages, sexual or not, can be classed as grooming.


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    Cheers. I didn't know that.

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  13. #72
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Am I reading you right here? It's against the law for an adult to chat online with a minor?

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    Yes, I believe so, on the basis that a conversation needn't be sexual in nature to be considered grooming. An online predator may talk in a seemingly harmless way initially, in order to win a child's trust, but it's still grooming.

    Obviously this doesn't mean family members can't chat online. It applies to strangers on a public chat site.
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  14. #73
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Yes, I believe so, on the basis that a conversation needn't be sexual in nature to be considered grooming. An online predator may talk in a seemingly harmless way initially, in order to win a child's trust, but it's still grooming.

    Obviously this doesn't mean family members can't chat online. It applies to strangers on a public chat site.
    Hibs.net educates me again.

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  15. #74
    @hibs.net private member sleeping giant's Avatar
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    A friend on my Facebook shared the following post from somebody in Ayr.
    The original poster is not on my friends list and the sharer is about to be removed.

    This is the side of Facebook that I can't stand.
    Some of the comments are terrible and if anyone questions if this actually happened , they get accused of all sorts.

    It's clearly just a racist whipping up hate but some of the thick people commenting is disturbing.

    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...content_filter
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  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleeping giant View Post
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    A friend on my Facebook shared the following post from somebody in Ayr.
    The original poster is not on my friends list and the sharer is about to be removed.

    This is the side of Facebook that I can't stand.
    Some of the comments are terrible and if anyone questions if this actually happened , they get accused of all sorts.

    It's clearly just a racist whipping up hate but some of the thick people commenting is disturbing.

    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...content_filter
    I'm a keen amateur photographer. Some of the comments on there remind me why I'm extra careful taking pictures with kids around.

    Likewise the paranoia is infectious. I was watching single guys taking pictures down at North Berwick yesterday.

    These thoughts went through my head - what were they up to? The granddaughter was on a roundabout, and you wonder - is the operator a nonce?

    The worst of it is you end up in a very difficult situation if you come across a lost child. What do you do?

    All it takes is one hysterical person,or trouble maker and things turn nasty.

  17. #76
    @hibs.net private member barcahibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chic Murray View Post
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    I'm a keen amateur photographer. Some of the comments on there remind me why I'm extra careful taking pictures with kids around.

    Likewise the paranoia is infectious. I was watching single guys taking pictures down at North Berwick yesterday.

    These thoughts went through my head - what were they up to? The granddaughter was on a roundabout, and you wonder - is the operator a nonce?

    The worst of it is you end up in a very difficult situation if you come across a lost child. What do you do?

    All it takes is one hysterical person,or trouble maker and things turn nasty.
    Mentioned it on here before I think but I work with kids aged from toddlers through to teenagers. I'm one of the very, very few men working in this area, and part of the reason for that is the hysteria over "peados".

    I work with kids with 'issues', kids who are vulnerable, kids with behavioural problems and mental health issues. Kids who society is failing.

    Of course sexual abuse happens, of course every effort should be made to stamp it out. It's kind of hard to make my point without trivialising sexual abuse and I don't want to do that. I have worked with teenagers and adults who have suffered sexual abuse. It's horrific when it happens.

    But there's so much more going on.

    I can give you a hundred stories of neglect, disinterest, mental and emotional abuse for every case of peadophilia. And it's just as damaging - but I bet some the mums and dads I'm thinking about would be the first one's in the mob screaming out about peados.

    But society doen't give a damm about emotional neglect. Its a parent's right to bring their child up however they please.

    I've met schoolkids who can barely speak to you, their confidence is so low. Sometimes mum has spent the last 16 years telling them they're worthless, sometimes dad has been hitting them, sometimes its the other way about. A huge part of my job working with teenagers is teaching them basics. How to shake someone's hand. How to look them in the eye when you talk to them. How to talk to someone you don't know, or someone in authority. How to value themselves. Basic stuff that no one has ever taught them because no one has ever cared.

    Often they are bullied, they come to school hungry or dirty or smelly because no one cares about them at home. Often they bully other kids because they don't know any better.

    A 16 year old girl told me she'd never have a job because she was useless so what's the point in coming to school? I asked her (stupidly, she caught me on a bad day) what her mum would think of her saying things like that and she told me her mum told her that all the time. Her mums advice to her was to ditch school, get herself pregnant and get on benefits as quickly as possible.

    I recently ran a series of events designed to allow absent fathers to spend fun, quality time with their children. Some of them (the majority of them) had an amazing time. But then there were the dads who had to be practically forced to turn up. Who came late or didn't come at all, leaving child on its own, wondering where their dad was. The worst ones are the kids who aren't even that obviously bothered. They just expect to be let down.

    There was the one dad who, halfway through an outdoor session physically carried a screaming four year old, over to me, and said loudly "you need to sort this, "it's" shat itself." The kid was screaming out that it hadn't (by the way one of the few times I've heard that particular child speak out loud in a group).

    He then stalked away and had a fag while I tried to calm the child down with reassuring words (I can't physically touch the child). Thankfully the female support worker - who has different safeguarding rules from me - was able to quickly come and take over. He hadn't 'shat' himself incidentally, he'd wet the training pants he was wearing.

    Another typical story. I'm running an event for mums and kids with emotional issues. One wee 8 year old boy spent the whole two hours trying to hold my hand. Nothing worked, we tried distracting him, giving him things to carry, giving me things to carry, coming up with games he needed his hands for, me keeping my hands in my pockets, sending him for errands - whatever we tried he was back after a couple of minutes trying to hold my hand.

    I'm not allowed to hold his hand. Because there might be peados out there.

    The likelihood is that I'm the only male role-model in that kids life at the moment but rules is rules. So we had to write a risk assessment for him and next time we're going to have an extra female member of staff along who'll be tasked with keeping him away from me. Eventually if that doesn't work we'll have to try explaining to him that he's not allowed to touch me. That won't cause any emotional damage I'm sure.

    On another session I made the mistake of sitting down while chatting to the group as they had something to eat. A little girl came over, sat on my knee and asked me if I would like to share her orange. I've worked with this group for a while and it's the first time, to my knowledge, that she has ever gone more than a few steps away from her mum, and the first time she's spoken out loud in front of the group (normally she whispers into her mum's ear and gets her to repeat whatever she wants to say).

    But of course I'm not allowed to touch a child because of all the peados so I had to stand up and move away (which I did as delicately as I could). Luckily I won't be working with that group again, but I still had to fill in a safeguarding form afterwards describing the incident.

    This happens literally every week.

    And literally every week I'll meet another child who's scarred by their parent's or societies' disinterest in their welfare - as long as paedos aren't involved.

    To be honest, I don't have to work with kids, I could easily fill my time working with adults only, I generally end up working with kids because I'm doing a favour to other staff members who are chronically under-resourced. It's got to the stage now where I actively try to avoid it. I'm constantly told I'm good at it and I should do more but it's soul destroying.

    And it's scary. I'm only one mistake, one false accusation, one misconstrued accident, away from a situation where that mob might be at my door. And judging by the number of other men I see working with children, I'm not the only one making that decision.

  18. #77
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barcahibs View Post
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    Mentioned it on here before I think but I work with kids aged from toddlers through to teenagers. I'm one of the very, very few men working in this area, and part of the reason for that is the hysteria over "peados".

    I work with kids with 'issues', kids who are vulnerable, kids with behavioural problems and mental health issues. Kids who society is failing.

    Of course sexual abuse happens, of course every effort should be made to stamp it out. It's kind of hard to make my point without trivialising sexual abuse and I don't want to do that. I have worked with teenagers and adults who have suffered sexual abuse. It's horrific when it happens.

    But there's so much more going on.

    I can give you a hundred stories of neglect, disinterest, mental and emotional abuse for every case of peadophilia. And it's just as damaging - but I bet some the mums and dads I'm thinking about would be the first one's in the mob screaming out about peados.

    But society doen't give a damm about emotional neglect. Its a parent's right to bring their child up however they please.

    I've met schoolkids who can barely speak to you, their confidence is so low. Sometimes mum has spent the last 16 years telling them they're worthless, sometimes dad has been hitting them, sometimes its the other way about. A huge part of my job working with teenagers is teaching them basics. How to shake someone's hand. How to look them in the eye when you talk to them. How to talk to someone you don't know, or someone in authority. How to value themselves. Basic stuff that no one has ever taught them because no one has ever cared.

    Often they are bullied, they come to school hungry or dirty or smelly because no one cares about them at home. Often they bully other kids because they don't know any better.

    A 16 year old girl told me she'd never have a job because she was useless so what's the point in coming to school? I asked her (stupidly, she caught me on a bad day) what her mum would think of her saying things like that and she told me her mum told her that all the time. Her mums advice to her was to ditch school, get herself pregnant and get on benefits as quickly as possible.

    I recently ran a series of events designed to allow absent fathers to spend fun, quality time with their children. Some of them (the majority of them) had an amazing time. But then there were the dads who had to be practically forced to turn up. Who came late or didn't come at all, leaving child on its own, wondering where their dad was. The worst ones are the kids who aren't even that obviously bothered. They just expect to be let down.

    There was the one dad who, halfway through an outdoor session physically carried a screaming four year old, over to me, and said loudly "you need to sort this, "it's" shat itself." The kid was screaming out that it hadn't (by the way one of the few times I've heard that particular child speak out loud in a group).

    He then stalked away and had a fag while I tried to calm the child down with reassuring words (I can't physically touch the child). Thankfully the female support worker - who has different safeguarding rules from me - was able to quickly come and take over. He hadn't 'shat' himself incidentally, he'd wet the training pants he was wearing.

    Another typical story. I'm running an event for mums and kids with emotional issues. One wee 8 year old boy spent the whole two hours trying to hold my hand. Nothing worked, we tried distracting him, giving him things to carry, giving me things to carry, coming up with games he needed his hands for, me keeping my hands in my pockets, sending him for errands - whatever we tried he was back after a couple of minutes trying to hold my hand.

    I'm not allowed to hold his hand. Because there might be peados out there.

    The likelihood is that I'm the only male role-model in that kids life at the moment but rules is rules. So we had to write a risk assessment for him and next time we're going to have an extra female member of staff along who'll be tasked with keeping him away from me. Eventually if that doesn't work we'll have to try explaining to him that he's not allowed to touch me. That won't cause any emotional damage I'm sure.

    On another session I made the mistake of sitting down while chatting to the group as they had something to eat. A little girl came over, sat on my knee and asked me if I would like to share her orange. I've worked with this group for a while and it's the first time, to my knowledge, that she has ever gone more than a few steps away from her mum, and the first time she's spoken out loud in front of the group (normally she whispers into her mum's ear and gets her to repeat whatever she wants to say).

    But of course I'm not allowed to touch a child because of all the peados so I had to stand up and move away (which I did as delicately as I could). Luckily I won't be working with that group again, but I still had to fill in a safeguarding form afterwards describing the incident.

    This happens literally every week.

    And literally every week I'll meet another child who's scarred by their parent's or societies' disinterest in their welfare - as long as paedos aren't involved.

    To be honest, I don't have to work with kids, I could easily fill my time working with adults only, I generally end up working with kids because I'm doing a favour to other staff members who are chronically under-resourced. It's got to the stage now where I actively try to avoid it. I'm constantly told I'm good at it and I should do more but it's soul destroying.

    And it's scary. I'm only one mistake, one false accusation, one misconstrued accident, away from a situation where that mob might be at my door. And judging by the number of other men I see working with children, I'm not the only one making that decision.
    Interesting story and hats off for the work you do.

    As you imply, the issue is that it's easy for people, even if they themselves have numerous issues of their own (usually the case too I find), to scream about "paedos" and all the rest of it. I'd be very surprised if members of these hunting groups are father of the year contenders themselves, but of course they can portray themselves as heroes to the mob for hunting paedos and protecting children.

    "I might be a bad dad, but I'm nae paedo!!".

    Even murderers are held in higher esteem in many cases - paedophiles are an easy target for people to abuse without recourse. Of course, I'm not condoning what these people have done at all, it is horrendous, but the levels of hysteria around this issue do not actually help and your story is just one example of that.

  19. #78
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Am I reading you right here? It's against the law for an adult to chat online with a minor?

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    Out of interest, is there an age you need to be to sign up to .net?

  20. #79
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sleeping giant View Post
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    A friend on my Facebook shared the following post from somebody in Ayr.
    The original poster is not on my friends list and the sharer is about to be removed.

    This is the side of Facebook that I can't stand.
    Some of the comments are terrible and if anyone questions if this actually happened , they get accused of all sorts.

    It's clearly just a racist whipping up hate but some of the thick people commenting is disturbing.

    https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbi...content_filter
    I find it quite hilarious (and sad, I guess) that nobody on that entire thread asks themselves what the evidence is these claims are based on. Mental.

  21. #80
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barcahibs View Post
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    Mentioned it on here before I think but I work with kids aged from toddlers through to teenagers. I'm one of the very, very few men working in this area, and part of the reason for that is the hysteria over "peados".

    I work with kids with 'issues', kids who are vulnerable, kids with behavioural problems and mental health issues. Kids who society is failing.

    Of course sexual abuse happens, of course every effort should be made to stamp it out. It's kind of hard to make my point without trivialising sexual abuse and I don't want to do that. I have worked with teenagers and adults who have suffered sexual abuse. It's horrific when it happens.

    But there's so much more going on.

    I can give you a hundred stories of neglect, disinterest, mental and emotional abuse for every case of peadophilia. And it's just as damaging - but I bet some the mums and dads I'm thinking about would be the first one's in the mob screaming out about peados.

    But society doen't give a damm about emotional neglect. Its a parent's right to bring their child up however they please.

    I've met schoolkids who can barely speak to you, their confidence is so low. Sometimes mum has spent the last 16 years telling them they're worthless, sometimes dad has been hitting them, sometimes its the other way about. A huge part of my job working with teenagers is teaching them basics. How to shake someone's hand. How to look them in the eye when you talk to them. How to talk to someone you don't know, or someone in authority. How to value themselves. Basic stuff that no one has ever taught them because no one has ever cared.

    Often they are bullied, they come to school hungry or dirty or smelly because no one cares about them at home. Often they bully other kids because they don't know any better.

    A 16 year old girl told me she'd never have a job because she was useless so what's the point in coming to school? I asked her (stupidly, she caught me on a bad day) what her mum would think of her saying things like that and she told me her mum told her that all the time. Her mums advice to her was to ditch school, get herself pregnant and get on benefits as quickly as possible.

    I recently ran a series of events designed to allow absent fathers to spend fun, quality time with their children. Some of them (the majority of them) had an amazing time. But then there were the dads who had to be practically forced to turn up. Who came late or didn't come at all, leaving child on its own, wondering where their dad was. The worst ones are the kids who aren't even that obviously bothered. They just expect to be let down.

    There was the one dad who, halfway through an outdoor session physically carried a screaming four year old, over to me, and said loudly "you need to sort this, "it's" shat itself." The kid was screaming out that it hadn't (by the way one of the few times I've heard that particular child speak out loud in a group).

    He then stalked away and had a fag while I tried to calm the child down with reassuring words (I can't physically touch the child). Thankfully the female support worker - who has different safeguarding rules from me - was able to quickly come and take over. He hadn't 'shat' himself incidentally, he'd wet the training pants he was wearing.

    Another typical story. I'm running an event for mums and kids with emotional issues. One wee 8 year old boy spent the whole two hours trying to hold my hand. Nothing worked, we tried distracting him, giving him things to carry, giving me things to carry, coming up with games he needed his hands for, me keeping my hands in my pockets, sending him for errands - whatever we tried he was back after a couple of minutes trying to hold my hand.

    I'm not allowed to hold his hand. Because there might be peados out there.

    The likelihood is that I'm the only male role-model in that kids life at the moment but rules is rules. So we had to write a risk assessment for him and next time we're going to have an extra female member of staff along who'll be tasked with keeping him away from me. Eventually if that doesn't work we'll have to try explaining to him that he's not allowed to touch me. That won't cause any emotional damage I'm sure.

    On another session I made the mistake of sitting down while chatting to the group as they had something to eat. A little girl came over, sat on my knee and asked me if I would like to share her orange. I've worked with this group for a while and it's the first time, to my knowledge, that she has ever gone more than a few steps away from her mum, and the first time she's spoken out loud in front of the group (normally she whispers into her mum's ear and gets her to repeat whatever she wants to say).

    But of course I'm not allowed to touch a child because of all the peados so I had to stand up and move away (which I did as delicately as I could). Luckily I won't be working with that group again, but I still had to fill in a safeguarding form afterwards describing the incident.

    This happens literally every week.

    And literally every week I'll meet another child who's scarred by their parent's or societies' disinterest in their welfare - as long as paedos aren't involved.

    To be honest, I don't have to work with kids, I could easily fill my time working with adults only, I generally end up working with kids because I'm doing a favour to other staff members who are chronically under-resourced. It's got to the stage now where I actively try to avoid it. I'm constantly told I'm good at it and I should do more but it's soul destroying.

    And it's scary. I'm only one mistake, one false accusation, one misconstrued accident, away from a situation where that mob might be at my door. And judging by the number of other men I see working with children, I'm not the only one making that decision.

    I have to say mate, this is a incredible post (I mean that in a complimentary way). Youíve shone light on this subject and related areas so well, and in a very articulate way.

    i am sure your job is very tough, but I also hope that itís so rewarding for you. I think that you clearly make a difference, I know these examples youíve given are to demonstrate the negative impact of the perceived risk of paedophilia (clearly there is a risk, but itís not the only one), but the way these children have engaged with you (especially when youíve described them as generally highly unlikely to do so), shows what an amazing job you have done to connect with them and for them to trust you and seek you out in a group of adults. Given their experience of adults, I have to say that that is fantastic, and I really hope that you take comfort and pride in knowing you make such a difference to them, you deserve to.

  22. #81
    24 Hours in Police Custody last night featured paedophiles and a hunting group.
    I don't want to spoil it for those that may still watch it but one of the paedophiles actions were horrific.

    It also gave a good insight into how these groups via social media can ruin any chance of a conviction against any perpetrators, driving them underground etc.

  23. #82
    Administrator matty_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyburn hibs View Post
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    24 Hours in Police Custody last night featured paedophiles and a hunting group.
    I don't want to spoil it for those that may still watch it but one of the paedophiles actions were horrific.

    It also gave a good insight into how these groups via social media can ruin any chance of a conviction against any perpetrators, driving them underground etc.
    I found last night's show very difficult to watch, and very enlightening as well.

    It's a horrible situation, we've had two incidents of these groups in our area recently, one about five minute's walk along the road from me, and then at the weekend at Tesco (which both me and my kids are in daily), which is less than a minute's drive from my house.

    Last night my 12 year old daughter was out playing, she hadn't contacted us for a couple of hourse and we couldn't reach her on her phone. I went out to look for her where we expected her to be - she wasn't there, and so for the next hour and a half or so, I was driving round playparks and areas where the kids hang out locally trying to find her.

    There were adults out with their kids at some of the playparks, and I genuinely worried about how I'd be perceived by them as I came past for a third or fourth time. I recognised some kids at one of the parks as they're pals with my daughter, so I got out and asked them if they'd seen her. At the parks where there were kids I didn't know so well, I didn't feel comfortable approaching the kids to ask.

    As it happens my daughter came home herself, perfectly fine, but because of the knowledge that there are potentially predatory people in the area, I'll be honest and say that all sorts of horrible thoughts were going through my head each time I tried a location and couldn't find her.

    I don't really agree with the groups, I don't think there's always a noble purpose at their heart, and I think there is often a blood-lust from those that hang around the groups, a mob-mentality which can cause more harm than good.
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  24. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by barcahibs View Post
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    Mentioned it on here before I think but I work with kids aged from toddlers through to teenagers. I'm one of the very, very few men working in this area, and part of the reason for that is the hysteria over "peados".

    I work with kids with 'issues', kids who are vulnerable, kids with behavioural problems and mental health issues. Kids who society is failing.

    Of course sexual abuse happens, of course every effort should be made to stamp it out. It's kind of hard to make my point without trivialising sexual abuse and I don't want to do that. I have worked with teenagers and adults who have suffered sexual abuse. It's horrific when it happens.

    But there's so much more going on.

    I can give you a hundred stories of neglect, disinterest, mental and emotional abuse for every case of peadophilia. And it's just as damaging - but I bet some the mums and dads I'm thinking about would be the first one's in the mob screaming out about peados.

    But society doen't give a damm about emotional neglect. Its a parent's right to bring their child up however they please.

    I've met schoolkids who can barely speak to you, their confidence is so low. Sometimes mum has spent the last 16 years telling them they're worthless, sometimes dad has been hitting them, sometimes its the other way about. A huge part of my job working with teenagers is teaching them basics. How to shake someone's hand. How to look them in the eye when you talk to them. How to talk to someone you don't know, or someone in authority. How to value themselves. Basic stuff that no one has ever taught them because no one has ever cared.

    Often they are bullied, they come to school hungry or dirty or smelly because no one cares about them at home. Often they bully other kids because they don't know any better.

    A 16 year old girl told me she'd never have a job because she was useless so what's the point in coming to school? I asked her (stupidly, she caught me on a bad day) what her mum would think of her saying things like that and she told me her mum told her that all the time. Her mums advice to her was to ditch school, get herself pregnant and get on benefits as quickly as possible.

    I recently ran a series of events designed to allow absent fathers to spend fun, quality time with their children. Some of them (the majority of them) had an amazing time. But then there were the dads who had to be practically forced to turn up. Who came late or didn't come at all, leaving child on its own, wondering where their dad was. The worst ones are the kids who aren't even that obviously bothered. They just expect to be let down.

    There was the one dad who, halfway through an outdoor session physically carried a screaming four year old, over to me, and said loudly "you need to sort this, "it's" shat itself." The kid was screaming out that it hadn't (by the way one of the few times I've heard that particular child speak out loud in a group).

    He then stalked away and had a fag while I tried to calm the child down with reassuring words (I can't physically touch the child). Thankfully the female support worker - who has different safeguarding rules from me - was able to quickly come and take over. He hadn't 'shat' himself incidentally, he'd wet the training pants he was wearing.

    Another typical story. I'm running an event for mums and kids with emotional issues. One wee 8 year old boy spent the whole two hours trying to hold my hand. Nothing worked, we tried distracting him, giving him things to carry, giving me things to carry, coming up with games he needed his hands for, me keeping my hands in my pockets, sending him for errands - whatever we tried he was back after a couple of minutes trying to hold my hand.

    I'm not allowed to hold his hand. Because there might be peados out there.

    The likelihood is that I'm the only male role-model in that kids life at the moment but rules is rules. So we had to write a risk assessment for him and next time we're going to have an extra female member of staff along who'll be tasked with keeping him away from me. Eventually if that doesn't work we'll have to try explaining to him that he's not allowed to touch me. That won't cause any emotional damage I'm sure.

    On another session I made the mistake of sitting down while chatting to the group as they had something to eat. A little girl came over, sat on my knee and asked me if I would like to share her orange. I've worked with this group for a while and it's the first time, to my knowledge, that she has ever gone more than a few steps away from her mum, and the first time she's spoken out loud in front of the group (normally she whispers into her mum's ear and gets her to repeat whatever she wants to say).

    But of course I'm not allowed to touch a child because of all the peados so I had to stand up and move away (which I did as delicately as I could). Luckily I won't be working with that group again, but I still had to fill in a safeguarding form afterwards describing the incident.

    This happens literally every week.

    And literally every week I'll meet another child who's scarred by their parent's or societies' disinterest in their welfare - as long as paedos aren't involved.

    To be honest, I don't have to work with kids, I could easily fill my time working with adults only, I generally end up working with kids because I'm doing a favour to other staff members who are chronically under-resourced. It's got to the stage now where I actively try to avoid it. I'm constantly told I'm good at it and I should do more but it's soul destroying.

    And it's scary. I'm only one mistake, one false accusation, one misconstrued accident, away from a situation where that mob might be at my door. And judging by the number of other men I see working with children, I'm not the only one making that decision.
    This is a really good post, very thought-provoking and insightful.

    I'll bet that some kids who are brought up with abuse go on to become abusers as well, there's a horrible cycle that they can become part of.
    http://hibscomebackison.blogspot.co.uk/ - Read my blog "So A Season Starts.. " - Updated TODAY 03/08/15

  25. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I found last night's show very difficult to watch, and very enlightening as well.

    It's a horrible situation, we've had two incidents of these groups in our area recently, one about five minute's walk along the road from me, and then at the weekend at Tesco (which both me and my kids are in daily), which is less than a minute's drive from my house.

    Last night my 12 year old daughter was out playing, she hadn't contacted us for a couple of hourse and we couldn't reach her on her phone. I went out to look for her where we expected her to be - she wasn't there, and so for the next hour and a half or so, I was driving round playparks and areas where the kids hang out locally trying to find her.

    There were adults out with their kids at some of the playparks, and I genuinely worried about how I'd be perceived by them as I came past for a third or fourth time. I recognised some kids at one of the parks as they're pals with my daughter, so I got out and asked them if they'd seen her. At the parks where there were kids I didn't know so well, I didn't feel comfortable approaching the kids to ask.

    As it happens my daughter came home herself, perfectly fine, but because of the knowledge that there are potentially predatory people in the area, I'll be honest and say that all sorts of horrible thoughts were going through my head each time I tried a location and couldn't find her.

    I don't really agree with the groups, I don't think there's always a noble purpose at their heart, and I think there is often a blood-lust from those that hang around the groups, a mob-mentality which can cause more harm than good.
    I can sympathise with what went on regarding your daughter being awol. I'm sure every parent has been in that situation at one time or another, I/we did when my two were smaller and it really strikes the fear into you.

    Completely agree with you regarding approaching/helping or even talking to kids that don't know you, it's really sadly uncomfortable, to the point where you'd think twice if you saw a kid fall off their bike or something similar.

  26. #85
    @hibs.net private member barcahibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    I have to say mate, this is a incredible post (I mean that in a complimentary way). You’ve shone light on this subject and related areas so well, and in a very articulate way.

    i am sure your job is very tough, but I also hope that it’s so rewarding for you. I think that you clearly make a difference, I know these examples you’ve given are to demonstrate the negative impact of the perceived risk of paedophilia (clearly there is a risk, but it’s not the only one), but the way these children have engaged with you (especially when you’ve described them as generally highly unlikely to do so), shows what an amazing job you have done to connect with them and for them to trust you and seek you out in a group of adults. Given their experience of adults, I have to say that that is fantastic, and I really hope that you take comfort and pride in knowing you make such a difference to them, you deserve to.
    Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really deserve them, there are loads of folk doing much more than me out there working away trying to fix things. My own hat goes off to the folk who work with 'problem' kids all the time, I usually only have a couple of sessions a week and even that is soul destroying at times.

    But yes there are amazing moments as well. I watched one of the kids I mentored recently give a talk in front of an audience of 250 adults at a national conference. When I met him he wouldn't lok you in the eye, but he was one of the daftest, funniest wee guys I've known. I bump into some of them when they're working or see them in their work uniform and I'll admit I get a wee glow of pride - mostly for them!

    On the other hand I had a session for vulnerable single parents (mums) and toddlers again today. At the end of it one wee girl runs round the group shouting "Hugs, Hugs!". She stops in front of every mum and sticks her arms out wide, massive smile on her face and gets a hug. She stops in front of me (the only man in the room) and does the same.

    I of course am not allowed to touch children because of all the paedos all around us.

    It's tough explaining that to a three year old, their immediate instinct is that they've done something wrong (luckily I've got enough experience that I saw it coming and made sure I was carrying something so I couldn't hug, and another female staff member quickly stepped in with mum to distract her).

    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    I found last night's show very difficult to watch, and very enlightening as well.

    It's a horrible situation, we've had two incidents of these groups in our area recently, one about five minute's walk along the road from me, and then at the weekend at Tesco (which both me and my kids are in daily), which is less than a minute's drive from my house.

    Last night my 12 year old daughter was out playing, she hadn't contacted us for a couple of hourse and we couldn't reach her on her phone. I went out to look for her where we expected her to be - she wasn't there, and so for the next hour and a half or so, I was driving round playparks and areas where the kids hang out locally trying to find her.

    There were adults out with their kids at some of the playparks, and I genuinely worried about how I'd be perceived by them as I came past for a third or fourth time. I recognised some kids at one of the parks as they're pals with my daughter, so I got out and asked them if they'd seen her. At the parks where there were kids I didn't know so well, I didn't feel comfortable approaching the kids to ask.

    As it happens my daughter came home herself, perfectly fine, but because of the knowledge that there are potentially predatory people in the area, I'll be honest and say that all sorts of horrible thoughts were going through my head each time I tried a location and couldn't find her.

    I don't really agree with the groups, I don't think there's always a noble purpose at their heart, and I think there is often a blood-lust from those that hang around the groups, a mob-mentality which can cause more harm than good.
    My partner played that daft pokemon mobile phone game - a lot of the places you have to go to catch the things are near play parks... I eventually refused to drive her to them as I could see how it probably looked!

    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyburn hibs View Post
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    I can sympathise with what went on regarding your daughter being awol. I'm sure every parent has been in that situation at one time or another, I/we did when my two were smaller and it really strikes the fear into you.

    Completely agree with you regarding approaching/helping or even talking to kids that don't know you, it's really sadly uncomfortable, to the point where you'd think twice if you saw a kid fall off their bike or something similar.
    On our last safeguarding training session (we get one annually) we were given a story by the instructor - it's probably apocryphal, but I've no doubt similar things have happened - about a retired male friend of his who was out playing golf at his local club. A few holes in he comes across a couple of wee laddies (teenagers) playing - they've clearly snuck onto the course and they're just bashing away with a couple of old clubs. He takes pity on them and offers them some tips, lets them use his clubs, and they finish the round together. He's really enjoyed it and as he walks away the wee lads shout out to him that they'll see him there again next week. He's telling this 'funny' story to his wife that night and it's only then that he realises he's been out, alone, with two young boys in a quiet secluded area - and that he's arranged to meet them again. He totally panics thinking how would he explain that to someone who didn't know him?

    My own father in law used to give free fly fishing lessons to local kids on behalf of the local angling club. He stopped that when someone at the club told him he needed to go through Disclosure. Not that anything would show up in his disclosure, but he was mortified that someone should think that, he took it as almost an accusation.

    The thing is inter-generational projects are brilliant. There are so many benefits from older adults working with kids - and it's a two way street, with the kids helping to prevent isolation and giving the older folk a new purpose and vitality in life. I tried to organise a project like this last year between a school and club for older men with mild mental health issues (basically depression, mostly caused by isolation) and it eventually turned out to be impossible, just too many hoops to jump through.

    There are so many kids out there who could massively benefit from a stabilising adult influence in their life. And so many kids who have no male influence in their lives at all. But we're all so busy hounding out paedos that we can't do anything about it.

    Walk into any nursery, primary school or charity working with kids and count how many men are working there. I'm not saying hysteria over paedeophilia is the only reason for that, but it's a massive part of it.

    Again, I'm not trying to trivialise sexual abuse, it does happen, it's horrific, the safeguarding rules I work under are there for a reason, but it's much much rare than the paedo behind every bush that the media pushes or that parents fear.

    The most frequently reported forms of trauma in children are witnessing domestic abuse, poverty, parental seperation and parental criminality. Where are the mobs outside the wife/husband beater's doors?

    In the meantime 1 in 10 kids aged 5-16 have a diagnosable mental illness that will probably last into adulthood - many of them (though of course by no means all!) caused by their family/life situation. 70% of those children will not get the help they need. The average wait for effective mental health treatment is 10 years.

    1 in 3 calls to Childline are about mental health issues.

    1 in 12 children self harm.

    60% of children in care have a mental health problem.

    Suicide is the leading cause of death for children aged 5-19. In England and Wales 3 children every week kill themselves. (the actual figures are probably worse than this as many suicides are bot reported as such)

    Apologies, rant over, it's been a tough week. And it's only Tuesday :)
    Last edited by barcahibs; 10-07-2018 at 09:39 PM.

  27. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by barcahibs View Post
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    Mentioned it on here before I think but I work with kids aged from toddlers through to teenagers. I'm one of the very, very few men working in this area, and part of the reason for that is the hysteria over "peados".

    I work with kids with 'issues', kids who are vulnerable, kids with behavioural problems and mental health issues. Kids who society is failing.

    Of course sexual abuse happens, of course every effort should be made to stamp it out. It's kind of hard to make my point without trivialising sexual abuse and I don't want to do that. I have worked with teenagers and adults who have suffered sexual abuse. It's horrific when it happens.

    But there's so much more going on.

    I can give you a hundred stories of neglect, disinterest, mental and emotional abuse for every case of peadophilia. And it's just as damaging - but I bet some the mums and dads I'm thinking about would be the first one's in the mob screaming out about peados.

    But society doen't give a damm about emotional neglect. Its a parent's right to bring their child up however they please.

    I've met schoolkids who can barely speak to you, their confidence is so low. Sometimes mum has spent the last 16 years telling them they're worthless, sometimes dad has been hitting them, sometimes its the other way about. A huge part of my job working with teenagers is teaching them basics. How to shake someone's hand. How to look them in the eye when you talk to them. How to talk to someone you don't know, or someone in authority. How to value themselves. Basic stuff that no one has ever taught them because no one has ever cared.

    Often they are bullied, they come to school hungry or dirty or smelly because no one cares about them at home. Often they bully other kids because they don't know any better.

    A 16 year old girl told me she'd never have a job because she was useless so what's the point in coming to school? I asked her (stupidly, she caught me on a bad day) what her mum would think of her saying things like that and she told me her mum told her that all the time. Her mums advice to her was to ditch school, get herself pregnant and get on benefits as quickly as possible.

    I recently ran a series of events designed to allow absent fathers to spend fun, quality time with their children. Some of them (the majority of them) had an amazing time. But then there were the dads who had to be practically forced to turn up. Who came late or didn't come at all, leaving child on its own, wondering where their dad was. The worst ones are the kids who aren't even that obviously bothered. They just expect to be let down.

    There was the one dad who, halfway through an outdoor session physically carried a screaming four year old, over to me, and said loudly "you need to sort this, "it's" shat itself." The kid was screaming out that it hadn't (by the way one of the few times I've heard that particular child speak out loud in a group).

    He then stalked away and had a fag while I tried to calm the child down with reassuring words (I can't physically touch the child). Thankfully the female support worker - who has different safeguarding rules from me - was able to quickly come and take over. He hadn't 'shat' himself incidentally, he'd wet the training pants he was wearing.

    Another typical story. I'm running an event for mums and kids with emotional issues. One wee 8 year old boy spent the whole two hours trying to hold my hand. Nothing worked, we tried distracting him, giving him things to carry, giving me things to carry, coming up with games he needed his hands for, me keeping my hands in my pockets, sending him for errands - whatever we tried he was back after a couple of minutes trying to hold my hand.

    I'm not allowed to hold his hand. Because there might be peados out there.

    The likelihood is that I'm the only male role-model in that kids life at the moment but rules is rules. So we had to write a risk assessment for him and next time we're going to have an extra female member of staff along who'll be tasked with keeping him away from me. Eventually if that doesn't work we'll have to try explaining to him that he's not allowed to touch me. That won't cause any emotional damage I'm sure.

    On another session I made the mistake of sitting down while chatting to the group as they had something to eat. A little girl came over, sat on my knee and asked me if I would like to share her orange. I've worked with this group for a while and it's the first time, to my knowledge, that she has ever gone more than a few steps away from her mum, and the first time she's spoken out loud in front of the group (normally she whispers into her mum's ear and gets her to repeat whatever she wants to say).

    But of course I'm not allowed to touch a child because of all the peados so I had to stand up and move away (which I did as delicately as I could). Luckily I won't be working with that group again, but I still had to fill in a safeguarding form afterwards describing the incident.

    This happens literally every week.

    And literally every week I'll meet another child who's scarred by their parent's or societies' disinterest in their welfare - as long as paedos aren't involved.

    To be honest, I don't have to work with kids, I could easily fill my time working with adults only, I generally end up working with kids because I'm doing a favour to other staff members who are chronically under-resourced. It's got to the stage now where I actively try to avoid it. I'm constantly told I'm good at it and I should do more but it's soul destroying.

    And it's scary. I'm only one mistake, one false accusation, one misconstrued accident, away from a situation where that mob might be at my door. And judging by the number of other men I see working with children, I'm not the only one making that decision.

    Powerful and educational writing....thanks for sharing

  28. #87
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    Pal of mine was working with kids. One of them absconded and he had to pursue her to ensure her safety.

    He caught up with the girl in a wooded part of a public park and restrained her till back up arrived.

    While he was waiting, he saw two men approach, carrying hammers. They had been working nearby.

    He was able to explain what he was doing.

    I've never understood why they were carrying hammers though.

  29. #88
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chic Murray View Post
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    Pal of mine was working with kids. One of them absconded and he had to pursue her to ensure her safety.

    He caught up with the girl in a wooded part of a public park and restrained her till back up arrived.

    While he was waiting, he saw two men approach, carrying hammers. They had been working nearby.

    He was able to explain what he was doing.

    I've never understood why they were carrying hammers though.

    Answered your own question.
    #Persevered
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  30. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Answered your own question.
    Fair play, it was a rough part of Dundee. Maybe they were worried about somebody stealing them.

  31. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by barcahibs View Post
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    Thank you for your kind words, but I don't really deserve them, there are loads of folk doing much more than me out there working away trying to fix things. My own hat goes off to the folk who work with 'problem' kids all the time, I usually only have a couple of sessions a week and even that is soul destroying at times.

    But yes there are amazing moments as well. I watched one of the kids I mentored recently give a talk in front of an audience of 250 adults at a national conference. When I met him he wouldn't lok you in the eye, but he was one of the daftest, funniest wee guys I've known. I bump into some of them when they're working or see them in their work uniform and I'll admit I get a wee glow of pride - mostly for them!

    On the other hand I had a session for vulnerable single parents (mums) and toddlers again today. At the end of it one wee girl runs round the group shouting "Hugs, Hugs!". She stops in front of every mum and sticks her arms out wide, massive smile on her face and gets a hug. She stops in front of me (the only man in the room) and does the same.

    I of course am not allowed to touch children because of all the paedos all around us.

    It's tough explaining that to a three year old, their immediate instinct is that they've done something wrong (luckily I've got enough experience that I saw it coming and made sure I was carrying something so I couldn't hug, and another female staff member quickly stepped in with mum to distract her).



    My partner played that daft pokemon mobile phone game - a lot of the places you have to go to catch the things are near play parks... I eventually refused to drive her to them as I could see how it probably looked!



    On our last safeguarding training session (we get one annually) we were given a story by the instructor - it's probably apocryphal, but I've no doubt similar things have happened - about a retired male friend of his who was out playing golf at his local club. A few holes in he comes across a couple of wee laddies (teenagers) playing - they've clearly snuck onto the course and they're just bashing away with a couple of old clubs. He takes pity on them and offers them some tips, lets them use his clubs, and they finish the round together. He's really enjoyed it and as he walks away the wee lads shout out to him that they'll see him there again next week. He's telling this 'funny' story to his wife that night and it's only then that he realises he's been out, alone, with two young boys in a quiet secluded area - and that he's arranged to meet them again. He totally panics thinking how would he explain that to someone who didn't know him?

    My own father in law used to give free fly fishing lessons to local kids on behalf of the local angling club. He stopped that when someone at the club told him he needed to go through Disclosure. Not that anything would show up in his disclosure, but he was mortified that someone should think that, he took it as almost an accusation.

    The thing is inter-generational projects are brilliant. There are so many benefits from older adults working with kids - and it's a two way street, with the kids helping to prevent isolation and giving the older folk a new purpose and vitality in life. I tried to organise a project like this last year between a school and club for older men with mild mental health issues (basically depression, mostly caused by isolation) and it eventually turned out to be impossible, just too many hoops to jump through.

    There are so many kids out there who could massively benefit from a stabilising adult influence in their life. And so many kids who have no male influence in their lives at all. But we're all so busy hounding out paedos that we can't do anything about it.

    Walk into any nursery, primary school or charity working with kids and count how many men are working there. I'm not saying hysteria over paedeophilia is the only reason for that, but it's a massive part of it.

    Again, I'm not trying to trivialise sexual abuse, it does happen, it's horrific, the safeguarding rules I work under are there for a reason, but it's much much rare than the paedo behind every bush that the media pushes or that parents fear.

    The most frequently reported forms of trauma in children are witnessing domestic abuse, poverty, parental seperation and parental criminality. Where are the mobs outside the wife/husband beater's doors?

    In the meantime 1 in 10 kids aged 5-16 have a diagnosable mental illness that will probably last into adulthood - many of them (though of course by no means all!) caused by their family/life situation. 70% of those children will not get the help they need. The average wait for effective mental health treatment is 10 years.

    1 in 3 calls to Childline are about mental health issues.

    1 in 12 children self harm.

    60% of children in care have a mental health problem.

    Suicide is the leading cause of death for children aged 5-19. In England and Wales 3 children every week kill themselves. (the actual figures are probably worse than this as many suicides are bot reported as such)

    Apologies, rant over, it's been a tough week. And it's only Tuesday :)
    Very insightful as was your other posts. Respect for the work you do.

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