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  1. #121
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

    We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

    If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

    If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

    You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

    As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

    We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
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  3. #122
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

    We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

    If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

    If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

    You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

    As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

    We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    Great Britain is one of the largest defined islands in the world, 8th largest in fact.
    Space to let

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    At the moment we are part of the UK a relatively small island that punches way above its weight so to speak with a very good standard of living, law and order, national security, employment, businesses big and small, secure currency, the NHS, decent benefit system for the unemployed, sick and disabled etc etc etc.

    We live in a UK and Commonwealth that's in the Premier League around the world and and it inhabitants are of a very diverse and of mostly welcoming nature. i love being able to travel the UK as a UK citizen and have been treated very well when travelling around its parts.

    If folk want to trade all this in and much more to live in a nationalistic very small country mostly solely for the tartan 'braveheart' culture then so be it but just think about what you'd be giving up.

    If Labour could be voted back in at both Westminster and Holyrood even better.

    You don't have to be a tartan 'braveheart' just because you're a Hi bee albeit you'd never think so as they tend to monopolise the debate on here.

    As for percentages and the other nonsense numbers that get banded around by some pied pipers as a post breakaway the count would be how many jobs would be lost and which companies were staying and which were leaving the nationalist state with either the nats in charge or a power vacuum that would be very changeable and trying to repair the meltdown that would inevitably occur and last for many years thereafter.

    We can have a socialist government in charge of the UK by ensuring Labour succeed wherever possible.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    1. Assuming you actually meant "Great Britain" as the island - it's ******g massive, one of the world's top 10 islands by size.
    2. The UK has a middling standard of living compared to other EU countries and consistently ranks low in "happiness" studies and so on. Imo, Brexit is going to make this far worse over the next few decades.
    3. The commonwealth is "premier league" in what way exactly?
    4. I want to live in modern, outward looking European country, not one run by a bunch of backward looking xenophobes who want to take us back decades to when they think they "ruled the waves".
    5. The Tories have been in power for 2/3 of my lifetime. They are ahead in UK polls again and Corbyn & co are running such a shambolic opposition that's not going to change any time soon.

    Good to see you're keeping an open mind on independence though.

  5. #124
    I don't think my will to live would survive another campaign filled with "punching above our weight" catchphrases.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    1. Assuming you actually meant "Great Britain" as the island - it's ******g massive, one of the world's top 10 islands by size.
    2. The UK has a middling standard of living compared to other EU countries and consistently ranks low in "happiness" studies and so on. Imo, Brexit is going to make this far worse over the next few decades.
    3. The commonwealth is "premier league" in what way exactly?
    4. I want to live in modern, outward looking European country, not one run by a bunch of backward looking xenophobes who want to take us back decades to when they think they "ruled the waves".
    5. The Tories have been in power for 2/3 of my lifetime. They are ahead in UK polls again and Corbyn & co are running such a shambolic opposition that's not going to change any time soon.

    Good to see you're keeping an open mind on independence though.
    Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.
    The difference is I have never claimed to.

  8. #127
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.
    Why would we need to keep an open mind about life in the UK, we've spent our lives experiencing what it's like?

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    Do you have an open mind about remaining in the UK? It seems your mind is closed to that idea.
    I'm really pleased that there are other hibs supporters like myself who care deeply about Scotland and whom think our country is far better off within the UK and oppose the anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists. The nationalists would create deep division and chaos if they win their day. Thankfully i don't think they ever will as there are many like us including Hibs supporters who believe in a diverse UK that's democratic whichever party wins albeit hopefully its a socialist one.

    It'd be great to hear more voices such as ours but I think many are put off debating in case the nationalists get on their case in my opinion.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!

  10. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Why would we need to keep an open mind about life in the UK, we've spent our lives experiencing what it's like?
    And instead of trying to make it better you would support cutting the north off from the rest of it yes?

    Mon the Cabbage!!!

  11. #130
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    I'm really pleased that there are other hibs supporters like myself who care deeply about Scotland and whom think our country is far better off within the UK and oppose the anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists. The nationalists would create deep division and chaos if they win their day. Thankfully i don't think they ever will as there are many like us including Hibs supporters who believe in a diverse UK that's democratic whichever party wins albeit hopefully its a socialist one.

    It'd be great to hear more voices such as ours but I think many are put off debating in case the nationalists get on their case in my opinion.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    What do you think of the Growth Commission Report?

  12. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    What do you think of the Growth Commission Report?
    Cross examination questions are best reserved for a court of law and not political debates. Certainly feel free to rubbish my points or make your own but don't cross examine as it doesn't make for good honest debate.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!

  13. #132
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    I'm really pleased that there are other hibs supporters like myself who care deeply about Scotland and whom think our country is far better off within the UK and oppose the anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists. The nationalists would create deep division and chaos if they win their day. Thankfully i don't think they ever will as there are many like us including Hibs supporters who believe in a diverse UK that's democratic whichever party wins albeit hopefully its a socialist one.

    It'd be great to hear more voices such as ours but I think many are put off debating in case the nationalists get on their case in my opinion.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    It's worth noting that people on both side of the debate care deeply about Scotland - they just have different ideas on how to get the best out of country. I don't think either side should start delving into the notion that they're opinion is better/smarter/in any way indicative of being more Scottish - a personal gripe of mine when in relation to any political opinion. (I'm not necessarily saying that's how you meant your comment to come across btw!)

    I also don't think many are put off debating the case, I think you just happen to be in a place where most people support independence - there were plenty of polls done where poeple didn't need to contribute more than a tick on here that showed the majority favoured it. That's a theme you'll see repeated across the messageboards of pretty much any football club (or I did, when I looked briefly in 2014) - with one obvious exception - and is indicative of the demographic make-up of football fans and independence supporters.
    Mon the Hibs.

  14. #133
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    Cross examination questions are best reserved for a court of law and not political debates. Certainly feel free to rubbish my points or make your own but don't cross examine as it doesn't make for good honest debate.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    It's hardly "cross-examination".

    The thread is about the Growth Commission Report. It's been hijacked, sadly, by the wider independence debate. I'm trying to get it back on track.

  15. #134
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    And instead of trying to make it better you would support cutting the north off from the rest of it yes?

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    We can make the UK better by leaving it and showing what remains what can be achieved as an independent outward looking nation.

  16. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    It's worth noting that people on both side of the debate care deeply about Scotland - they just have different ideas on how to get the best out of country. I don't think either side should start delving into the notion that they're opinion is better/smarter/in any way indicative of being more Scottish - a personal gripe of mine when in relation to any political opinion. (I'm not necessarily saying that's how you meant your comment to come across btw!)

    I also don't think many are put off debating the case, I think you just happen to be in a place where most people support independence - there were plenty of polls done where poeple didn't need to contribute more than a tick on here that showed the majority favoured it. That's a theme you'll see repeated across the messageboards of pretty much any football club (or I did, when I looked briefly in 2014) - with one obvious exception - and is indicative of the demographic make-up of football fans and independence supporters.
    Very fair points well put.

    I'm well aware I'm probably in the minority in here on making a case for Scotland remaining within the UK however there should be room for voices of differing and opposing viewpoints. I believe a socialist UK government when voted back in can deliver better for all of us under a progressive caring socialist government without Scotland breaking off from it.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!

  17. #136
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    Very fair points well put.

    I'm well aware I'm probably in the minority in here on making a case for Scotland remaining within the UK however there should be room for voices of differing and opposing viewpoints. I believe a socialist UK government when voted back in can deliver better for all of us under a progressive caring socialist government without Scotland breaking off from it.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    There is 100% room for you to voice your opinions.

    For what it's worth, I probably agree with your view now, having previously leaned towards independence. I'd rather see us get on with it as things are and make a better go of making Scottish and UK governments work for us as they stand - at least just now.
    Mon the Hibs.

  18. #137
    @hibs.net private member The Modfather's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    Very fair points well put.

    I'm well aware I'm probably in the minority in here on making a case for Scotland remaining within the UK however there should be room for voices of differing and opposing viewpoints. I believe a socialist UK government when voted back in can deliver better for all of us under a progressive caring socialist government without Scotland breaking off from it.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    There's room for all viewpoints. You'd probably get a better debate if you were more constructive and stopped being so brash and bullish with language like "tartan bravehearts" and "anarchist crash and burn Scotland policy of the nationalists"

  19. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The difference is I have never claimed to.
    Ok fair enough at least your honest about having the independence blinkers on. It's a bit much to ask others to keep an open mind when your mind is already made up.

  20. #139
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    Ok fair enough at least your honest about having the independence blinkers on. It's a bit much to ask others to keep an open mind when your mind is already made up.
    So as a proponent of the Union how do you intend to convince a Scottish Nationalist that the status quo is the way to go forward?

    Surely the point is that things ain't that great and change is necessary if we're going to have a fair and compassionate society.

    Or is that not the aim of Labour any more?

  21. #140
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    There is 100% room for you to voice your opinions.

    For what it's worth, I probably agree with your view now, having previously leaned towards independence. I'd rather see us get on with it as things are and make a better go of making Scottish and UK governments work for us as they stand - at least just now.
    Good luck with that part.

  22. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    So as a proponent of the Union how do you intend to convince a Scottish Nationalist that the status quo is the way to go forward?

    Surely the point is that things ain't that great and change is necessary if we're going to have a fair and compassionate society.

    Or is that not the aim of Labour any more?
    I do not think the status quo is so terrible and compared to the rest of the world we do pretty well. Granted the EU is still being propped up by quantitative easing and the UK is a net contributor to the EU, take those two away and the EU is in a dire situation and not to mention Italy's dept problem.

    The UK gives Scotland security in tough times like the last financial crisis, we never had the levels of youth unemployment that still rampant throughout the EU.

    The whole EU dictatorship stinks - full of career politicians that care little for democracy or the people's opinions, they think they know best and Nicola Sturgeon will sell Scotland out to George Soros and the EU.

    The UK is fair and compassionate society, its not the racist xenophobic backward society some are trying to claim, the UK has been welcoming and open society for decades.

    Why is Brexit bad, yet Independence good?

    Why SNP Austerity good, yet Tory Austerity bad?

  23. #142
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    So as a proponent of the Union how do you intend to convince a Scottish Nationalist that the status quo is the way to go forward?

    Surely the point is that things ain't that great and change is necessary if we're going to have a fair and compassionate society.

    Or is that not the aim of Labour any more?
    Who says things aren't that great? That's your own opinion and perspective which of course your entirely entitled to have, but you can't assume everyone thinks the same as you. Maybe a lot of people are perfectly happy and don't see the need to change anything?

  24. #143
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Who says things aren't that great? That's your own opinion and perspective which of course your entirely entitled to have, but you can't assume everyone thinks the same as you. Maybe a lot of people are perfectly happy and don't see the need to change anything?
    Or even that people can see some things need to change but reject nationalism as a folly and indulgence that detracts from the real issues we need to address as a society.
    There's only one thing better than a Hibs calendar and that's two Hibs calendars

  25. #144
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh70 View Post
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    And instead of trying to make it better you would support cutting the north off from the rest of it yes?

    Mon the Cabbage!!!
    We've been trying that for centuries. "Cutting the north off from the rest of it", you make it sound like we're gonna sail off to the middle of the Atlantic. We'll still be neighbours with "The rest of it", we'll still have family and friends there, they'll visit us and we'll visit them and life will go on but we'll determine how it does go on.

  26. #145
    I've yet to hear any sort of economic plan or strategy from unionists.

    All I hear are cringetastic catchphrases like "punching above our weight" and 5-1 esque comfort blankets like "strength and security".

    Just have the balls to come out and state that you prefer living with the idea and comfort of scrounging off of England.

  27. #146
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IGRIGI View Post
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    I've yet to hear any sort of economic plan or strategy from unionists.

    All I hear are cringetastic catchphrases like "punching above our weight" and 5-1 esque comfort blankets like "strength and security".

    Just have the balls to come out and state that you prefer living with the idea and comfort of scrounging off of England.
    Your doing the Unionist job for them, do you really think that's the way to engage with people who dare to have a different opinion. Keep it up as you will alienate the very people you need to convince.

  28. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    There is 100% room for you to voice your opinions.

    For what it's worth, I probably agree with your view now, having previously leaned towards independence. I'd rather see us get on with it as things are and make a better go of making Scottish and UK governments work for us as they stand - at least just now.


    Mon the Cabbage!!!

  29. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by IGRIGI View Post
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    I've yet to hear any sort of economic plan or strategy from unionists.

    All I hear are cringetastic catchphrases like "punching above our weight" and 5-1 esque comfort blankets like "strength and security".

    Just have the balls to come out and state that you prefer living with the idea and comfort of scrounging off of England.
    Hmm. Itís what political and monetary unions do..they redistribute across the union. Scrounging itís not and see the Euro for the problems it causes when itís not done.

    Greece...forced into a decade long decline

    Italy (a true Euro heavyweight) stuck in a similar, if not quite as obviously brutal, long decline and now on the brink of a popularist, Eurosceptic, EU rule busting government

    The ECB continually printing money to completely rig the market in Euro govt bonds and therefore falsely lowering the price of borrowing of the likes of Spain, Portugal and Italy (and quite a few others) to desperately attempt to make up for the currencies and the EUís fundamental flaws.


    Unless Scotland becomes the richest part of the U.K. (and not even the most fervent of Indy supporters would seriously suggest Scotland Independent or not, will match a super city like London in terms of output) then there should always be a subsidy paid to it by those parts that currently are. Itís a fundamental part of the reason for being in a currency union.

    It was therefore interesting to see that the growth report suggested large payments to rUK at the same time as entering an INformal currency union with no such redistribution.

    And approach which personally wouldnít have immediately sprung to my mind when considering a thesis on which to build a new economic future.

    But then again neither would I have dreamt up some random growth rates in a pointless statistic and stuck that in my exec summary...

  30. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    We've been trying that for centuries. "Cutting the north off from the rest of it", you make it sound like we're gonna sail off to the middle of the Atlantic. We'll still be neighbours with "The rest of it", we'll still have family and friends there, they'll visit us and we'll visit them and life will go on but we'll determine how it does go on.
    It would be entirely different as we'd no longer have preferential treatment from our partner countries south of Gretna. They could put up a hard border with us if they so desired and make it extremely difficult for us as per transport links, travel, business etc etc etc and there's not a thing we could about it and that's the reality. It could be the way you said but very unlikely in my opinion that things would ever be the same again in regards to the way we'd be regarded by the rest of the UK. It would be very probably a very acrimonious break up.

    Mon the Cabbage!!!

  31. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Hmm. Itís what political and monetary unions do..they redistribute across the union. Scrounging itís not and see the Euro for the problems it causes when itís not done.

    Greece...forced into a decade long decline

    Italy (a true Euro heavyweight) stuck in a similar, if not quite as obviously brutal, long decline and now on the brink of a popularist, Eurosceptic, EU rule busting government

    The ECB continually printing money to completely rig the market in Euro govt bonds and therefore falsely lowering the price of borrowing of the likes of Spain, Portugal and Italy (and quite a few others) to desperately attempt to make up for the currencies and the EUís fundamental flaws.


    Unless Scotland becomes the richest part of the U.K. (and not even the most fervent of Indy supporters would seriously suggest Scotland Independent or not, will match a super city like London in terms of output) then there should always be a subsidy paid to it by those parts that currently are. Itís a fundamental part of the reason for being in a currency union.

    It was therefore interesting to see that the growth report suggested large payments to rUK at the same time as entering an INformal currency union with no such redistribution.

    And approach which personally wouldnít have immediately sprung to my mind when considering a thesis on which to build a new economic future.

    But then again neither would I have dreamt up some random growth rates in a pointless statistic and stuck that in my exec summary...
    Weíre not in a currency union, weíre a region of a unitary state.

    We get a disproportionate amount of public spending vs similar regions elsewhere in UK. The UK gov darenít scrap Barnett until the threat of Indy subsides.

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