Hibs open to all in 1889

[joe breezy]

Thought this press cutting on Kerrydale Street was quite interesting. A Hun at my work years ago used to delight in telling me Hibs were the first sectarian club

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8189/hibs.jpg

[Petrie's Tache]

As the saying goes "class is permanent".:notworthy:

[--------]

Reading that para, I think you may just have maybe got the date wrong - "No enquiry into religion was ever made...."

I read that to mean that the club was open to anyone right from the start - 1875, in other words.

But many thanks - nice find and another wee sidelight into the club history.

[Jonnyboy]

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Thought this press cutting on Kerrydale Street was quite interesting. A Hun at my work years ago used to delight in telling me Hibs were the first sectarian club

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8189/hibs.jpg

It's a popular myth perpetuated by Rangers and Hearts fans Joe.

HFC was founded by Catholics and in its formative years it was a condition that any Catholic playing for the club should be practising and not lapsed. There's a difference between 'you must be Catholic to play for Hibs' and 'if you're a Catholic and play for Hibs you must be a practising Catholic and not lapsed.'

The sad thing is that the club would have willingly allowed any decent players to join regardless of their religion but because Irish immigrants were not welcome in Edinburgh nobody of a non Catholic persuasion wanted to join the club.

[Keith_M]

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Thought this press cutting on Kerrydale Street was quite interesting. A Hun at my work years ago used to delight in telling me Hibs were the first sectarian club

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8189/hibs.jpg

I don't mean to sound cynical but it would be really easy to create something like that. Without more details as to what the document is that it's part of, it's not exactly something that would stand up as 'evidence' of anything.

I suppose I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, because it's the first thing you'll get asked if you show it to anybody.

[joe breezy]

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I don't mean to sound cynical but it would be really easy to create something like that. Without more details as to what the document is that it's part of, it's not exactly something that would stand up as 'evidence' of anything.

I suppose I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here, because it's the first thing you'll get asked if you show it to anybody.

It's as good as you get I think. Recorded history in black and white, the writer is a Protestant.

Football was a massive sport then as it is now. Imagine the furore if Petrie wrote to the paper with blatant lies, there would be quite a kerffuffel.

Much of our understanding of history is built on less, to be devil's advocate against it you'd need to present contradictory evidence, no?

[Keith_M]

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It's as good as you get I think. Recorded history in black and white, the writer is a Protestant.

Football was a massive sport then as it is now. Imagine the furore if Petrie wrote to the paper with blatant lies, there would be quite a kerffuffel.

Much of our understanding of history is built on less, to be devil's advocate against it you'd need to present contradictory evidence, no?

Sorry mate, I didn't mean to sound like I doubted this. It's just that it doesn't actually mention where it's from, the name of the person quoted, newspaper, date, etc.

TBH, the minute you said it was from Kerrydale St, my anti-OF, cynical, suspicous nature kicked in.

[joe breezy]

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Sorry mate, I didn't mean to sound like I doubted this. It's just that it doesn't actually mention where it's from, the name of the person quoted, newspaper, date, etc.

TBH, the minute you said it was from Kerrydale St, my anti-OF, cynical, suspicous nature kicked in.

The newspaper and date is:

Scottish Sport, January 22nd 1889

Some of the posters on Kerrydale Street don't seem too bad to be fair

[Keith_M]

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The newspaper and date is:

Scottish Sport, January 22nd 1889

Some of the posters on Kerrydale Street don't seem too bad to be fair

Cool, sounds genuine then.


Though I do have issues about the last sentence in your post

[joe breezy]

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Cool, sounds genuine then.


Though I do have issues about the last sentence in your post

Indeed, I had to research fan forums for my work at one point and it was the only Old Firm I could read through without steam coming out my ears. Some with delusions of grandeur but nowhere near as bad as others.

[erin go bragh]

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Thought this press cutting on Kerrydale Street was quite interesting. A Hun at my work years ago used to delight in telling me Hibs were the first sectarian club

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8189/hibs.jpg

according to the book by alan lugton[hibernian the early years]
it was not till 1891[after some smeltic directors shafted us] also says we stopped playing between 89/91
and that we were the first non sectarian club in scotland when we started up again in 1891

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

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Thought this press cutting on Kerrydale Street was quite interesting. A Hun at my work years ago used to delight in telling me Hibs were the first sectarian club

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8189/hibs.jpg

Does he take equal delight in the fact that his team are now the last sectarian club?

[hibbybrian]

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Thought this press cutting on Kerrydale Street was quite interesting. A Hun at my work years ago used to delight in telling me Hibs were the first sectarian club

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8189/hibs.jpg

One of the players mentioned is James Brogan who signed for Hibs from Beith in 1883 and after scoring a fair amount of goals (including at least 6 goals in a 10-0 Scottish Cup win over Edina) then signed for Hearts at the end of the 1883-1884 season. He signed for Bolton after Hearts toured Lancashire later that year. I don't have any data that indicates he was a Protestant, although his baptismal records may be available somewhere.

I haven't found any reference to the player Higgins yet, but the records from that era are somewhat sparse

[Part/Time Supporter]

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One of the players mentioned is James Brogan who signed for Hibs from Beith in 1883 and after scoring a fair amount of goals (including at least 6 goals in a 10-0 Scottish Cup win over Edina) then signed for Hearts at the end of the 1883-1884 season. He signed for Bolton after Hearts toured Lancashire later that year. I don't have any data that indicates he was a Protestant, although his baptismal records may be available somewhere.

I haven't found any reference to the player Higgins yet, but the records from that era are somewhat sparse

There was a Sandy Higgins in that period who played for Killie (and once for Scotland). No mention of him playing for Hibs on wiki or the sfa sites though. Mind that Hibs signed quite a lot of Ayrshire players in that early period (eg James McGhee came from Lugar).

[Green_one]

I think you need to admit that Hibs employed pretty strict criteria for playing for them. As one poster described, basically a church going Catholic.

The key for me at that time is this. The guys who were playing for Hibs would not have got a game for anyone else based on their religeon and nationality. So, in order to play at all, they needed to form a club of their own. Even then, people tried to stop them.

Its a bit like black football teams in South Africa. No way would they get to play the whites at one time so they formed their own teams and often just played other blacks.

Perhaps they took it a little far but I cannot see this as 'sectarian'. They were clearly NOT bigotted. More restrictive, like FP rugby clubs. They were not excluding others, more INCLUDING themselves. BY 91, at the latest, even this was all gone and they were clearly stated as open to all. Meantime Rangers took their bile into the 21 century.

[hibbybrian]

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There was a Sandy Higgins in that period who played for Killie (and once for Scotland). No mention of him playing for Hibs on wiki or the sfa sites though. Mind that Hibs signed quite a lot of Ayrshire players in that early period (eg James McGhee came from Lugar).

Good spot I'll check back for any reference to him

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I think you need to admit that Hibs employed pretty strict criteria for playing for them. As one poster described, basically a church going Catholic.

The key for me at that time is this. The guys who were playing for Hibs would not have got a game for anyone else based on their religeon and nationality. So, in order to play at all, they needed to form a club of their own. Even then, people tried to stop them.

Its a bit like black football teams in South Africa. No way would they get to play the whites at one time so they formed their own teams and often just played other blacks.

Perhaps they took it a little far but I cannot see this as 'sectarian'. They were clearly NOT bigotted. More restrictive, like FP rugby clubs. They were not excluding others, more INCLUDING themselves. BY 91, at the latest, even this was all gone and they were clearly stated as open to all. Meantime Rangers took their bile into the 21 century.

Also a bit like Ferranti Thistle and Civil Service Strollers being restricted to playing employees

[vahibbie]

On the Hibs CD on one of the "history of Hibs" segments it does say that we were a Catholics only club when we first formed. We became non-sectarian after we re-formed. We were even denied promotion to Div 1 the first season after that because of "lingering" doubts about our non-sectarian policy.

[Brizo]

My understanding was that when we were formed it was under the auspices of the St Pats CYMS (Catholic Young Mens Society) and Hibernian was only one of a number of leisure activites which that Society ran specifically for the young Catholic men of that parish. Canon Hannans main objective was to arrange activities to keep the young Catholics in a slum parish away from the temptations of drink and crime.

My understanding was that the player Brogan was a Catholic however didnt attend mass and was let go because he was not a practising Catholic. The main criteria of the CYMS were that first and foremost you had to be a practising Catholic and attend mass which then opened up the CYMS social activities such as Hibs to church members.

Were the early Hibs sectarian ? No more so than any social activitity run by a Church for church members. Certainly not "sectarian" in the way that word is used nowadays in a Scottish fitba context. I find that most of those who play the Hibs were a sectarian club card are usually characters trying to divert attention from their own clubs and own supports failings in that particular area.

[Part/Time Supporter]

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On the Hibs CD on one of the "history of Hibs" segments it does say that we were a Catholics only club when we first formed. We became non-sectarian after we re-formed. We were even denied promotion to Div 1 the first season after that because of "lingering" doubts about our non-sectarian policy.

I think there were more underhand considerations regarding that. It wasn't automatic promotion then, as the first division clubs elected whoever they wanted out of the second division. They voted for Clyde, who finished third in the second division, rather than Hibs (who won it) or Cowlairs (who were second). The fact that Cowlairs were also overlooked tends to go against the sectarian point. It looks more like a case of the first division clubs electing a club that would be easier to beat, certainly that's what Mackay says in his books.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1893-94...ttish_football

Mackay also notes that Hibs wrote to the EEN moaning about "the unfair and biased critcism of our team". Another example of the Hibs bias in the EEN!

[Purple & Green]

Frank Higgins played a couple of games for Hibs in 1884/85. There's little information about him, but he is mentioned in Lugton I. He seems to have been a reserve player that played in a couple of friendlies.

[Sir David Gray]

There's a book that I used for my higher History class a few years ago that mentions Hibs briefly during a timeline of something (I can't remember what) and it basically says that Hibs were a sectarian club until a certain year (I can't remember the year either) when we finally ended the policy of only allowing Roman Catholics to play for us.

Ever since I read that book, I have been under the impression that Hibs were a sectarian club during our early years and I've no doubt that anyone else who has read that same book will think the same.

So if it's a load of rubbish, Hibs should be asking the people who publish the books to change that bit.

Maybe someone who does higher History just now will know the book I mean.

[superfurryhibby]

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Thought this press cutting on Kerrydale Street was quite interesting. A Hun at my work years ago used to delight in telling me Hibs were the first sectarian club

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8189/hibs.jpg

Interesting wee snippet there JB. I think it has been widely accepted that Hibs were indeed "sectarian" prior to their re-constitution in 1888-89. The basis was that the club were exclusively Catholic and demanded that it's players were actively practising that faith.

Aside from Kerrydale St, do you know the source of that cutting?

Anyway, no matter, the Hun at work needed reminded that we were enlightened enough to become an open club one hundred years before they did and that the circumstances were rather different. As Alan Lugton in his "Making of Hibernian" points out, non-protestants were very unlikely to have wanted to play for Hibs in the early days. The club had a focus on (Catholic) charitable work and a very strong political outlook which embraced Irish Home Rule. Hardly likely to endear them to many Scottish Presbyterians.

[Phil D. Rolls]

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Interesting wee snippet there JB. I think it has been widely accepted that Hibs were indeed "sectarian" prior to their re-constitution in 1888-89. The basis was that the club were exclusively Catholic and demanded that it's players were actively practising that faith.

Aside from Kerrydale St, do you know the source of that cutting?

Anyway, no matter, the Hun at work needed reminded that we were enlightened enough to become an open club one hundred years before they did and that the circumstances were rather different. As Alan Lugton in his "Making of Hibernian" points out, non-protestants were very unlikely to have wanted to play for Hibs in the early days. The club had a focus on (Catholic) charitable work and a very strong political outlook which embraced Irish Home Rule. Hardly likely to endear them to many Scottish Presbyterians.

I thought that Rangers were an open club in their early years, and it was only around WW1 that the polcy changed.

[WindyMiller]

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I thought that Rangers were an open club in their early years, and it was only around WW1 that the polcy changed.

I'm sure I've read that they were open in the early years but changed in a definite attempt to be the opposite of Celtic.

[superfurryhibby]

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I thought that Rangers were an open club in their early years, and it was only around WW1 that the polcy changed.

You may well be right, Bill Murray's " The Old Firm-Sectarianism , Sport and Society" would give a good outline of how this developed. I recall that there was a link to shipyards (Harland and Wolf?) and the immigrant workers from Belfast that may have pushed them further towards a bigotted stance over religion and players. I remember that it was a bit earlier than WW1, the latter years of the 19th, very early 29th century. I don't believe that their motivation was entirely based on the strength of their religious convictions, rather more the business advantage gained from the opposing of the "Irish" teams.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

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The newspaper and date is:

Scottish Sport, January 22nd 1889

Some of the posters on Kerrydale Street don't seem too bad to be fair

Although the only publication on the British Newspaper Archives on that date appears to The Scotsman.

https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1889-01-22/1889-01-22?NewspaperTitle=The%2BScotsman&IssueId=BL%2F0000 540%2F18890122%2F&County=Midlothian%2C%20Scotland

[greenginger]

There was another publication, the Edinburgh Courant , around until the end of the 19th century.

There is is an online archive for it.

[lapsedhibee]

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It's as good as you get I think. Recorded history in black and white, the writer is a Protestant.

Football was a massive sport then as it is now. Imagine the furore if Petrie wrote to the paper with blatant lies, there would be quite a kerffuffel.

Much of our understanding of history is built on less, to be devil's advocate against it you'd need to present contradictory evidence, no?

The fat slug at Level 5 feeds blatant lies to the papers all the time, and there's no kerfuffle at all.

[Sammy7nil]

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The fat slug at Level 5 feeds blatant lies to the papers all the time, and there's no kerfuffle at all.

It is very true lies are printed everyday in papers and very little is said or done about it.

[heidtheba]

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My understanding was that when we were formed it was under the auspices of the St Pats CYMS (Catholic Young Mens Society) and Hibernian was only one of a number of leisure activites which that Society ran specifically for the young Catholic men of that parish. Canon Hannans main objective was to arrange activities to keep the young Catholics in a slum parish away from the temptations of drink and crime.

My understanding was that the player Brogan was a Catholic however didnt attend mass and was let go because he was not a practising Catholic. The main criteria of the CYMS were that first and foremost you had to be a practising Catholic and attend mass which then opened up the CYMS social activities such as Hibs to church members.

Were the early Hibs sectarian ? No more so than any social activitity run by a Church for church members. Certainly not "sectarian" in the way that word is used nowadays in a Scottish fitba context. I find that most of those who play the Hibs were a sectarian club card are usually characters trying to divert attention from their own clubs and own supports failings in that particular area.

it might be relevant, but not specific to the club, that when St Mary's Halls was inaugurated lord provost William Chambers did th speech and ceremony He actually said that he wouldn't normally open a sectarian building but that in this case it was a privilege because the halls would serve the whole community, catholic or other.