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Thread: The Israelis

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    Coaching Staff Betty Boop's Avatar
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    The Israelis

    Thought the Iraeli butchers deserved a mention gunning down Palestinian protesters at the Gaza border, 60 dead and thousands injured.


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    Testimonial Due Stranraer's Avatar
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    Watched Louis Theroux's "The Ultra Zionists" and it was scary how many Israeli's believe that the Palestinians are second class citizens. Yesterday's events just prove how brutal the Israeli's are.

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    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Israel's Ambassador to London on R4 this morning reckoned that live fire was justified because Palestinians approached the fence with wirecutters.

    What an absolute ****ing Nazi. There is no other word for him.

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    I have watched this type of Israeli army behaviour over many years and I am truly astonished that they get away with it.

    The soldiers must have a collective blood lust.

    The most incredulous fact is that they are doing to rioting civilians what the Nazis did to Jews in 1930/40's.

    If one Nazi soldier was murdered by a Jew then 10 were executed in return. The irony of it. Yet not one soldier has died in the riots, I believe.

    Trump would have been warned that the riots would happen with the re location of their embassy against all international protocol

    and he went ahead anyway. He is, in my opinion, cruel and utterly unconcerned.

    I stipulate I am referring to some members of the Israeli army and not to Jews or Judaism per se.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pollution View Post
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    I have watched this type of Israeli army behaviour over many years and I am truly astonished that they get away with it.

    The soldiers must have a collective blood lust.

    The most incredulous fact is that they are doing to rioting civilians what the Nazis did to Jews in 1930/40's.

    If one Nazi soldier was murdered by a Jew then 10 were executed in return. The irony of it. Yet not one soldier has died in the riots, I believe.

    Trump would have been warned that the riots would happen with the re location of their embassy against all international protocol

    and he went ahead anyway. He is, in my opinion, cruel and utterly unconcerned.

    I stipulate I am referring to some members of the Israeli army and not to Jews or Judaism per se.
    I'm not sure about that. It's clear the commanders (ultimately Netanyahu) of the soldiers are callous *******s who see Palestinian children as easy targets to make their point. Unfortunately, on the Palestinian side, Hamas sees their own children as expendable martyrs to make their point.

    The whole thing is sickening.

  7. #6
    Yitzhak Rabin was a good leader, the best the Israelis ever had, but he was assassinated by a right wing fanatic. He had tried to make peace with the Palestinians and signed the Oslo Accord with Yasser Arafat. From then on its been one right wing fanatical leader after another. Trump won't give a ****- it's a long, long way from the rednecks that voted him in.

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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Israel and the Jewish people have made the full circle, they've now gone from being victims to become the perpetrators. History will not remember them well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Israel and the Jewish people have made the full circle, they've now gone from being victims to become the perpetrators. History will not remember them well.
    Iím not sure if you meant it like that but itís not Ďthe Jewish peopleí. Itís Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Stranraer View Post
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    Watched Louis Theroux's "The Ultra Zionists" and it was scary how many Israeli's believe that the Palestinians are second class citizens. Yesterday's events just prove how brutal the Israeli's are.
    That's an interesting documentary, for many if the Palestinians don't like it they can go to Jordan.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    Iím not sure if you meant it like that but itís not Ďthe Jewish peopleí. Itís Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.
    I was friends at uni with a guy who was Jewish. He was raised in Chicago but his Dad was from Beit Shemesh in Israel, very close to the West Bank, and he had spent his formative years there. His paternal fanily were all ultra right wing and strongly believed in the ideals of Zionism. His Dad had been ostracised because he had at 1st began to question his parents and grandparents beliefs and ended up being a pretty outspoken critic of Israeli policy within his community. There was a killing in Beit Shemesh in the 90s of schoolgirls by a Jordanian soldier and after that his families stance hardened and he was eventually forced to leave for the USA and later Belgium. He had huge respect for his Dad and often spoke of his confusion growing up when he compared his life to the Palestinian children he encountered on a daily basis.

    I think he found it hard being both Jewish and a critic of Israel. He was hugely excited to return to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem for a summer but felt guilty about enjoying it. He was treated with pretty open distrust by both Muslims, he was also a pretty vocal critic of Hamas, and other Jews within our social circle.

    There's no real point to my post other than to reaffirm your point that many Jews are appaled by the actions of the Israeli Government.
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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    Iím not sure if you meant it like that but itís not Ďthe Jewish peopleí. Itís Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.
    I actually did mean it like that. The history of the Jewish people and that of the state of Israel are entwined in a similar way to the Germans and the Nazis. Many people will be able to make the distinction but most won't.

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    Iím going to put my hands up and confess I have no idea whatís going on

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    The whole thing is a bloody nightmare and it doesn't look like there will ever be a solution.

    Trumps frankly insane decision to relocate the US embassy to Jerusalem is proving to be the catalyst for murder and maiming everybody 'apart from him apparently' knew it would be. To the Palestinians it was like the final nail being hammered into the coffin of any hope that the US could or would ever play the part of peace broker in the middle east.

    Trump I presume will have nothing to say about Israel's illegal under international law occupation of the west bank ... the law being that a country ( any country ) which occupies part of another country as a result of conflict cannot use it to re settle its own population, something Israel has been doing for decades with its various ruling parties paying little more than lip service to removing Jewish settlers. The practice is illegal under international law almost totally as a result of the Nazis policy of 'Lebensraum' ... the policy aimed at removing the indigenous populations of eastern Europe and replacing them with ethnic Germans ... how ironic is that?

    As for Jerusalem itself ..... given its importance to three of the worlds most popular religions, and the inevitable conflict that was going to surround it, what should have happened is that at the end of WWII the city should have been declared an independent state in its own right run by a committee of Jewish, Christian and Muslim administrators appointed by the UN .... It might not have been perfect, but surely better than the mess we have now. Hell, even the Americans saw the sense of ensuring that none of its 50 states could lay claim to being the home of the country's capital.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    Iím not sure if you meant it like that but itís not Ďthe Jewish peopleí. Itís Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.
    Correct Beefster; the 51 year illegal occupation has been perpetrated by Israel not Jews, and many Israelis are appalled at what their government has done in that time. However, enough Israelis are happy enough to ensure it continues. That said, this is a political issue, not a religious one. Many Jews across the world oppose the occupation. The latest killings are a disgrace; Netanyahu is an utter *******.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Correct Beefster; the 51 year illegal occupation has been perpetrated by Israel not Jews, and many Israelis are appalled at what their government has done in that time. However, enough Israelis are happy enough to ensure it continues. That said, this is a political issue, not a religious one. Many Jews across the world oppose the occupation. The latest killings are a disgrace; Netanyahu is an utter *******.
    I'm not sure it can be simply brushed off as political and non religious when the political basis for the state of Israel is that Israel is the promised land for God's chosen people. When that principle lies at the bottom of territorial politics, then it's clearly steered by religious belief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Israel's Ambassador to London on R4 this morning reckoned that live fire was justified because Palestinians approached the fence with wirecutters.

    What an absolute ****ing Nazi. There is no other word for him.
    So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
    Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

    Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I'm not sure it can be simply brushed off as political and non religious when the political basis for the state of Israel is that Israel is the promised land for God's chosen people. When that principle lies at the bottom of territorial politics, then it's clearly steered by religious belief.

    Conflating Israeli with Jewish is very wrong. If everyone in Israel is responsible then you need to lump in all the Arab population, the non-practising and atheist Jews, the Druze population...

    Not everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish and not every Jew agrees with the policies and actions of successive Israeli governments. This is not a product of Jewish religious belief, just as the actions of any given Egyptian government are not matters of Islamic religious belief. To illustrate this further, there are some very fundamentalist Jews who believe that the present state of Israel should not exist at all. Essentially they believe it is heretical and blasphemous to have an Israeli state that was created by man rather than by God.

    Israel has had a succession of deeply weird governments sustained by mosaic coalitions of various core and splinter political parties. If you want to find one of the core reasons why peace has not been found between Israel and the Palestinian people, looking at the Israeli electoral system takes you a very long way down that path. Every Israeli Premier is basically held to ransom by quite small but extremist political parties in their Knesset due to a proportional representation system with a threshold of just 3.25% of the vote in order to start winning seats. It's made even worse by that fact that nutty political parties are allowed to remain separate but become 'alliances' for electoral purposes - so that if your brand of xenophobia and my brand of nationalism bundle together for electoral purposes then your 2% of the vote and my 1.25% of the vote get counted together as one bundle so that we qualify for seats.

    So any unprincipled Premier willing to conduct brutal policies is more than enabled by a combination of the legitimising of his policies in consequence of the terrorist acts of Hamas, Hezbollah etc, the regional sense of encirclement by hostile states and the barking willingness of minority parties and their demagogue leaders to support authoritarian state violence and repression.

    It is a horrible, seemingly endless conflict that appears to have no sensible resolution that all sides will sign up to. But it is not a product of being Jewish or being Islamic. Neither has it been made any easier by the key actors and the region being used as proxies for both super and not-so-super powers from outside. Or by the opportunism of Sadat at Camp David.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
    Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

    Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)
    Suicide bombers my arse. Innocent children who's worst crime is probably throwing a pebble at the soldiers.

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    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Conflating Israeli with Jewish is very wrong. If everyone in Israel is responsible then you need to lump in all the Arab population, the non-practising and atheist Jews, the Druze population...

    Not everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish and not every Jew agrees with the policies and actions of successive Israeli governments. This is not a product of Jewish religious belief, just as the actions of any given Egyptian government are not matters of Islamic religious belief. To illustrate this further, there are some very fundamentalist Jews who believe that the present state of Israel should not exist at all. Essentially they believe it is heretical and blasphemous to have an Israeli state that was created by man rather than by God.

    Israel has had a succession of deeply weird governments sustained by mosaic coalitions of various core and splinter political parties. If you want to find one of the core reasons why peace has not been found between Israel and the Palestinian people, looking at the Israeli electoral system takes you a very long way down that path. Every Israeli Premier is basically held to ransom by quite small but extremist political parties in their Knesset due to a proportional representation system with a threshold of just 3.25% of the vote in order to start winning seats. It's made even worse by that fact that nutty political parties are allowed to remain separate but become 'alliances' for electoral purposes - so that if your brand of xenophobia and my brand of nationalism bundle together for electoral purposes then your 2% of the vote and my 1.25% of the vote get counted together as one bundle so that we qualify for seats.

    So any unprincipled Premier willing to conduct brutal policies is more than enabled by a combination of the legitimising of his policies in consequence of the terrorist acts of Hamas, Hezbollah etc, the regional sense of encirclement by hostile states and the barking willingness of minority parties and their demagogue leaders to support authoritarian state violence and repression.

    It is a horrible, seemingly endless conflict that appears to have no sensible resolution that all sides will sign up to. But it is not a product of being Jewish or being Islamic. Neither has it been made any easier by the key actors and the region being used as proxies for both super and not-so-super powers from outside. Or by the opportunism of Sadat at Camp David.
    Intresting post. Thanks.

    My small thoughts is that the Israelis have the right to exist, and protect themselves. The way they go about it is WAAAAY over the top.

    I do think that the collective memory of the Holocaust, their foundation and the fact that their neighbours want them gone, does nothing to reign in the crazy ďkill em all, we are Gods peopleĒ element.

    J

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
    Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

    Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)
    Indiscriminate, deadly force against "potential terrorists". That sounds a bit like the Para's battle plan on Bloody Sunday. They must surely have rubber bullets and water-cannon available for these situations (they do as they've used them before).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stranraer View Post
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    Suicide bombers my arse. Innocent children who's worst crime is probably throwing a pebble at the soldiers.
    Im pretty sure there is no evidence of children being killed at that part.

    If there so happened tobe...Why the hell would any parent allow them there in the first place?
    Unless Hamas put them there of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    Im pretty sure there is no evidence of children being killed at that part.

    If there so happened tobe...Why the hell would any parent allow them there in the first place?
    Unless Hamas put them there of course.
    I partly agree with you re: why would the parents allow them there, but I personally don't believe hamas would put them there. There's probably a lot of angry young men that want to go and protest at Israel's provocative moves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stranraer View Post
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    I partly agree with you re: why would the parents allow them there, but I personally don't believe hamas would put them there. There's probably a lot of angry young men that want to go and protest at Israel's provocative moves.
    It has been widely reported(not in the mainstream media though) that Hamas have been brainwashing certain kids,and sending them tobe suicide bombers.
    Absolutely sickening though to shoot a child though..

  25. #24
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Conflating Israeli with Jewish is very wrong. If everyone in Israel is responsible then you need to lump in all the Arab population, the non-practising and atheist Jews, the Druze population...

    Not everyone who lives in Israel is Jewish and not every Jew agrees with the policies and actions of successive Israeli governments. This is not a product of Jewish religious belief, just as the actions of any given Egyptian government are not matters of Islamic religious belief. To illustrate this further, there are some very fundamentalist Jews who believe that the present state of Israel should not exist at all. Essentially they believe it is heretical and blasphemous to have an Israeli state that was created by man rather than by God.

    Israel has had a succession of deeply weird governments sustained by mosaic coalitions of various core and splinter political parties. If you want to find one of the core reasons why peace has not been found between Israel and the Palestinian people, looking at the Israeli electoral system takes you a very long way down that path. Every Israeli Premier is basically held to ransom by quite small but extremist political parties in their Knesset due to a proportional representation system with a threshold of just 3.25% of the vote in order to start winning seats. It's made even worse by that fact that nutty political parties are allowed to remain separate but become 'alliances' for electoral purposes - so that if your brand of xenophobia and my brand of nationalism bundle together for electoral purposes then your 2% of the vote and my 1.25% of the vote get counted together as one bundle so that we qualify for seats.

    So any unprincipled Premier willing to conduct brutal policies is more than enabled by a combination of the legitimising of his policies in consequence of the terrorist acts of Hamas, Hezbollah etc, the regional sense of encirclement by hostile states and the barking willingness of minority parties and their demagogue leaders to support authoritarian state violence and repression.

    It is a horrible, seemingly endless conflict that appears to have no sensible resolution that all sides will sign up to. But it is not a product of being Jewish or being Islamic. Neither has it been made any easier by the key actors and the region being used as proxies for both super and not-so-super powers from outside. Or by the opportunism of Sadat at Camp David.
    I understand that the Middle East conflict is complex and that many factors fuel the fire of the cycle of hate, but to say that religion is not the basis for all the trouble is frankly deflecting from reality and not helpful in finding a solution. All 3 major religions in the area have a claim to holy sites in the area and until they can agree to how to resolve their differences then all political solutions are doomed to failure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    Iím not sure if you meant it like that but itís not Ďthe Jewish peopleí. Itís Israel. There are plenty of Jews who are appalled at what is going on.
    Likewise, there are plenty Israelis who are equally appalled. A bit like there are plenty in our country who despise Westminster, a huge number of people in or from Israel hate their government. Iíve visited Israel twice and have many friends from there. Thankfully both visits were during relatively peaceful times. Incredibly beautiful and complex part of the World but from my experience, nobody I spoke to about the ongoing conflict agreed with the actions of their government. In fact many of the young adults I met there have left and now live in London, Germany or the US.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I actually did mean it like that. The history of the Jewish people and that of the state of Israel are entwined in a similar way to the Germans and the Nazis. Many people will be able to make the distinction but most won't.
    I think most people with half a brain can differentiate between the Nazis and modern day Germany.

  28. #27
    Was pretty ignorant to this until recently but have read up on it a bit . With that in mind i think its a bit brutal to lay all the blame on the Israeli side . Israel has been under attack constantly from the secondit declared independence until now . Has had to fight off wars launched by all of its much larger neighbours at regular intervals , had its athletes mudrered infront of the whole world during an olympic games . Has had to contend with rocket barrages and suicide bombings at everything from weddings to pizza palours . But hey Israeli = bad , palestinian = good

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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    Was pretty ignorant to this until recently but have read up on it a bit . With that in mind i think its a bit brutal to lay all the blame on the Israeli side . Israel has been under attack constantly from the secondit declared independence until now . Has had to fight off wars launched by all of its much larger neighbours at regular intervals , had its athletes mudrered infront of the whole world during an olympic games . Has had to contend with rocket barrages and suicide bombings at everything from weddings to pizza palours . But hey Israeli = bad , palestinian = good
    The flip side is that they have hardly been non inflammatory themselves.

    But I get your point and itís pretty ludicrous that so many people seem wedded to the idea that there is a simple good / bad split and then bend any view on events to fit their underlying position.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    Was pretty ignorant to this until recently but have read up on it a bit . With that in mind i think its a bit brutal to lay all the blame on the Israeli side . Israel has been under attack constantly from the secondit declared independence until now . Has had to fight off wars launched by all of its much larger neighbours at regular intervals , had its athletes mudrered infront of the whole world during an olympic games . Has had to contend with rocket barrages and suicide bombings at everything from weddings to pizza palours . But hey Israeli = bad , palestinian = good
    Count the casualties on both sides then reevaluate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    So I suppose they just just allow potential terrorists to cut the fence and let the suicide bombers in.
    Theres absolutely no reason why they should be at the fence in the first place.

    Im pretty sure under the rules of engagement...They acted within it(when said person could have a bomb attached to himself)
    **** off. 'Potential terrorists', as opposed to the Israeli state, which is a fully paid up terrorist organisation? Kill anyone you don't like and then shout 'potential terrorist'. Israel is responsible for far more terrorism than any Palestinian ever has. How about they obey international law for starters, ending an illegal occupation and blockade?
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 28-05-2018 at 01:34 AM.
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