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Thread: The Israelis

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    1. I don't read newspapers - of any kind, let alone 'Murdoch's press'. But it's entirely unsurprising that you decided to make up the notion that I do, it's in keeping with the rest of the ignorant and ill informed pish you've posted.

    2. Are you even a party member because the crap you are talking about it is either utterly dishonest or utterly dumb. Either way your infatuation with Magic Grandad is not enough to overcome the reality of how the Labour Party works. What would I know about it though, I've only been a member since age 18.

    3. Please point me to where on this thread - pace the sentence above - I have made any attempt to justify attacks on Corbyn. I merely pointed out that he is the person who has been leader while the suspensions and expulsions you regret have taken place.

    4. What exactly is it you believe to be a racist abomination?

    5. Are you as disgusted by the attacks of Hamas and Hezbollah as you are by the behaviour of the Israeli state?

    "Infatuation with Magic Grandad" tells me all I need to know about you already.
    And it isn't difficult to determine your infatuation with Genocidal Tony. Of course, when you talk about your 'membership' then you actually mean membership of 'New Labour', which most party members now call 'Non-Labour' or 'Thatcherite Labour'. - but carry on clinging to your past.

    Israel is the racist abomination - a creation of British colonialism based upon apartheid, and a throwback to the 19th century.

    Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Israel and I'm not entirely sure why you are banding these two organisations together.

    Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. Of course, I realise that people like you only recognise democracy when the result is the one you are demanding.
    Hamas has every right to resist Israeli attacks on the inhabitants of the concentration camp known as the Gaza Strip - just as the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto once resisted the Nazis.

    Hezbollah represents Lebanon's independence - without it, Lebanon would be transformed into another Israeli-occupied concentration camp, similar to the Gaza Strip.
    Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's democratically-elected government - again, one which people like you would probably not recognise because the Lebanese have a tendency to resist attempted Western influence on their democratic process.
    Hezbollah has never attacked Israel without provokation - but it has succeeded in driving the racist invaders from Lebanon on every occasion on which they have tried to steal and occupy Lebanese territory.


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  3. #62
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IngolstadtHarry View Post
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    "Infatuation with Magic Grandad" tells me all I need to know about you already.
    And it isn't difficult to determine your infatuation with Genocidal Tony. Of course, when you talk about your 'membership' then you actually mean membership of 'New Labour', which most party members now call 'Non-Labour' or 'Thatcherite Labour'. - but carry on clinging to your past.

    Israel is the racist abomination - a creation of British colonialism based upon apartheid, and a throwback to the 19th century.

    Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Israel and I'm not entirely sure why you are banding these two organisations together.

    Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. Of course, I realise that people like you only recognise democracy when the result is the one you are demanding.
    Hamas has every right to resist Israeli attacks on the inhabitants of the concentration camp known as the Gaza Strip - just as the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto once resisted the Nazis.

    Hezbollah represents Lebanon's independence - without it, Lebanon would be transformed into another Israeli-occupied concentration camp, similar to the Gaza Strip.
    Hezbollah is part of Lebanon's democratically-elected government - again, one which people like you would probably not recognise because the Lebanese have a tendency to resist attempted Western influence on their democratic process.
    Hezbollah has never attacked Israel without provokation - but it has succeeded in driving the racist invaders from Lebanon on every occasion on which they have tried to steal and occupy Lebanese territory.

    I think I'll just leave your post right here.

  4. #63
    [QUOTE=IngolstadtHarry;5431447]


    Hamas and Hezbollah have not attacked Israel

    Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. Of course, I realise that people like you only recognise democracy when the result is the one you are demanding.
    Hamas has every right to resist Israeli attacks on the inhabitants of the concentration camp known as the Gaza Strip - just as the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto once resisted the Nazis.

    [QUOTE]

    You cant be serious , Hamas are terrorists , Dedicated to the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews .

  5. #64
    [QUOTE=makaveli1875;5431495]

    You cant be serious , Hamas are terrorists , Dedicated to the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews .
    Lol, what comics have you been reading, lad?
    Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. If you would broaden your education then you would be less prone to quoting from the Israeli Embassy sound-byte catalogue. :-D
    Who said it was democratically-elected? President Jimmy Carter and the international election observers of the UN. Any more questions?

  6. #65
    [QUOTE=IngolstadtHarry;5431511]
    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    Lol, what comics have you been reading, lad?
    Hamas is the democratically-elected government of Gaza. If you would broaden your education then you would be less prone to quoting from the Israeli Embassy sound-byte catalogue. :-D
    Who said it was democratically-elected? President Jimmy Carter and the international election observers of the UN. Any more questions?
    You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .

  7. #66
    'One Day Soon' has twisted and turned, spouting about youtube, Corbyn and conspiracies.
    What he hasn't done is make any single comment on the film I linked to.
    So I am going to post the link again - so that the more open-minded users can judge for themselves whether or not it gives a fair summary of the mechanisms Israel uses to maintain its apartheid system.

    Defamation - documentary by Yoav Shamir

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWF9CeoZdE&t=103s

  8. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .
    Are you able to read and understand English?

  9. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .

    You seem to claim a greater knowledge of Gaza than that of Jimmy Carter and the UN Election Observers Committee so I am going to post an article for you to read from the Guardian - that notorious hotbed of radical Islam.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...estinians.usa1

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by IngolstadtHarry View Post
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    'One Day Soon' has twisted and turned, spouting about youtube, Corbyn and conspiracies.
    What he hasn't done is make any single comment on the film I linked to.
    So I am going to post the link again - so that the more open-minded users can judge for themselves whether or not it gives a fair summary of the mechanisms Israel uses to maintain its apartheid system.

    Defamation - documentary by Yoav Shamir

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNWF9CeoZdE&t=103s

    I absolutely do not want to be in any way associated with your posts and their content on this subject so please leave me out of them in future thanks.

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    You dont need toread comics to know hamas is a militant group , designated as terrorists by most of the civilised world . Sham elections dont change that fact .
    It wasn't a sham election, makaveli. The U.N. monitored the elections and said they took place in an entirely fair way. There was no evidence of the election being corrupt. Trouble was the people elected the 'wrong' administration, according to Israel and the USA and were immediately hit with sanctions. I'm no fan of the political/religious views of Hamas, by the way, but, if we want democracy, we have to accept the outcome, even if we don't like it.
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  12. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    I absolutely do not want to be in any way associated with your posts and their content on this subject so please leave me out of them in future thanks.
    Then stop commenting on them, ffs. :-D

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    It wasn't a sham election, makaveli. The U.N. monitored the elections and said they took place in an entirely fair way. There was no evidence of the election being corrupt. Trouble was the people elected the 'wrong' administration, according to Israel and the USA and were immediately hit with sanctions. I'm no fan of the political/religious views of Hamas, by the way, but, if we want democracy, we have to accept the outcome, even if we don't like it.

    Totally right. And the same is true of the outcome of Israeli elections. But what do you do when the people you need to bring together on all sides are barely interested in accommodating one another at all?

    As I have argued elsewhere the electoral system in Israel is a significant part of the problem here.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by IngolstadtHarry View Post
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    Then stop commenting on them, ffs. :-D
    You randomly introduced me into your last post but one. I don't want to be associated with your 'views' on this subject in any regard so kindly stop.

  15. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    It wasn't a sham election, makaveli. The U.N. monitored the elections and said they took place in an entirely fair way. There was no evidence of the election being corrupt. Trouble was the people elected the 'wrong' administration, according to Israel and the USA and were immediately hit with sanctions. I'm no fan of the political/religious views of Hamas, by the way, but, if we want democracy, we have to accept the outcome, even if we don't like it.
    Exactly my view. The West has been procrastinating over the fate of the Palestinians for 70 years - going through the motions of peace talks, and talks about talks, while Israel holds onto the ball.
    It came as no great surprise that the desperate people of Gaza chose a radical government in 2006. Now we should be trying to negotiate with the elected government instead of trying to bring it down.

    The attitude of the US to democracy can be summed up by a quote from Henry Kissinger about Chile.

    I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.

  16. #75
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IngolstadtHarry View Post
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    Clearly, you live in a parallel universe with 'alternative facts'.
    In my universe, Corbyn won the leadership election, and I quote Wikipedia, "in a landslide victory on 12 September 2015 with 59.5% of first-preference votes in the first round of voting. Corbyn's 40.5% majority was larger than that attained by Tony Blair in 1994.[12][13] His margin of victory was said to be "the largest mandate ever won by a party leader".

    When he was challenged for the leadership by Owen Smith in 2016, Corbyn increased his majority. I quote: "
    Corbyn was re-elected as Labour leader on 24 September, with 313,209 votes (61.8%) compared to 193,229 (38.2%) for Owen Smith – a slightly increased share of the vote compared to his election in 2015, when he won 59%. On a turnout of 77.6%, Corbyn won the support of 59% of party members, 70% of registered supporters and 60% of affiliated supporters".

    "let’s be frank, there aren’t Blairites nowadays, the man left the job more than a decade ago."
    Well, the Labour Party seems to think that it has Blairites, members who hold to Blair's philosophy call themselves Blairites and those who oppose them use the same term - so I don't really understand what you are trying to say there at all. Some members of the Tory Party call themselves 'Thatcherites' even though she left power decades ago, and the planet years ago.

    "fantasies where Blair stands trial for war crimes.."
    To make light of war crimes is very dangerous territory indeed. Many international campaigners for justice for the victims of Tony Blair and George Bush do not regard such a scenario as a 'fantasy' and maybe if you had a family member who was sent to war and died on the basis of lies told by Blair then you would take this matter a little more seriously, instead of making such a flippant remark.


    Who is making light of war crimes? I am saying, and it's true, that there's a sizeable number of people in the party, especially among the entryists, who dream of Blair being tried for war crimes.

    I don't know anyone in the Party who describes themselves as 'Blairite' nowadays. The term was always a distinction, to reflect differentiation from the 'Brownites' and that wasn't really all that much about philosophy and more about supporting the individual and their camp. Brown arguably had a stronger philosophical bent, Blair cleaved more to pragmatism than principle than Brown did.

    Perhaps Blair's main philosophical thrust was his view that liberal democracies should actively intervene, militarily, in nations where there were dictatorships, civil war or genocide. It's an uncomfortable truth for his detractors that he was talking about this long before Iraq and in fact Clinton was still in office, hence military intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.
    Last edited by Mibbes Aye; 14-06-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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  17. #76
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IngolstadtHarry View Post
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    Exactly my view. The West has been procrastinating over the fate of the Palestinians for 70 years - going through the motions of peace talks, and talks about talks, while Israel holds onto the ball.
    It came as no great surprise that the desperate people of Gaza chose a radical government in 2006. Now we should be trying to negotiate with the elected government instead of trying to bring it down.

    The attitude of the US to democracy can be summed up by a quote from Henry Kissinger about Chile.

    I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go communist due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the Chilean voters to be left to decide for themselves.
    No - the attitude of the US to democracy cannot be summed up by a quote by a contrary figure nearly fifty years ago.
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  18. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Who is making light of war crimes? I am saying, and it's true, that there's a sizeable number of people in the party, especially among the entryists, who dream of Blair being tried for war crimes.

    I don't know anyone in the Party who describes themselves as 'Blairite' nowadays. The term was always a distinction, to reflect differentiation from the 'Brownites' and that wasn't really all that much about philosophy and more about supporting the individual and their camp. Brown arguably had a stronger philosophical bent, Blair cleaved more to pragmatism than principle than Brown did.

    Perhaps Blair's main philosophical thrust was his view that liberal democracies should actively intervene, militarily, in nations where there were dictatorships, civil war or genocide. It's an uncomfortable truth for his detractors that he was talking about this long before Iraq and in fact Clinton was still in office, hence military intervention in Kosovo and Sierra Leone.
    I am among those people.
    Blair is, by the definition laid down at the Nuremberg Tribunal, guilty of the most serious crime of all - the waging of an aggressive war.
    The judgment laid down at Nuremberg set precedents for international law which still govern conflict between nations in the modern world.
    Here is the most important statement made there:

    "To initiate a war of aggression is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime, differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

    Blair lied to the British people, he lied to Parliament and he caused others to lie on his behalf. He caused the UK's armed forces to perpetrate crimes against humanity and caused its intelligence services to render suspects for torture in foreign lands.
    If we wish to present ourselves as upholders of international law and human rights then we must put him on trial in open court - not in a private session where his crimes can be hidden or covered up.

    Perhaps Blair did believe, as you say, that 'liberal democracies' should intervene and 'bring democracy' to dictatorships. If that really were the case, however, then his philosophy was very selectively applied. He apparently didn't feel any urge to intervene against the headchopping Saudis or, indeed, against Gaddafi while the Colonel was once again the 'good dictator' before he fell out with Cameron.

    It is true that the term Blairite is used more often by the Left than it is by those who cling to New Labour philosophy but there are still many who are proud to use the label for themselves.
    A recent article in the Independent proclaimed, "20 years after Blair's historic landslide victory, here's why so many of my generation still call themselves Blairites".

  19. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    You randomly introduced me into your last post but one. I don't want to be associated with your 'views' on this subject in any regard so kindly stop.
    There you go again. Every time you comment, you associate yourself.

  20. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    No - the attitude of the US to democracy cannot be summed up by a quote by a contrary figure nearly fifty years ago.
    I'm afraid that it can, and Kissinger is hardly a 'contrary figure'. He still has his bloody hands on the levers of power. Bush appointed him to the 9/11 inquiry and Trump has him as an advisor.
    The US has been bombing one country or another every day since 1945 - mostly on the pretext of 'bringing democracy' to those countries.
    Here's a list:

    The bombing list


    • Korea and China 1950-53 (Korean War)
    • Guatemala 1954
    • Indonesia 1958
    • Cuba 1959-1961
    • Guatemala 1960
    • Congo 1964
    • Laos 1964-73
    • Vietnam 1961-73
    • Cambodia 1969-70
    • Guatemala 1967-69
    • Grenada 1983
    • Lebanon 1983, 1984 (both Lebanese and Syrian targets)
    • Libya 1986
    • El Salvador 1980s
    • Nicaragua 1980s
    • Iran 1987
    • Panama 1989
    • Iraq 1991 (Persian Gulf War)
    • Kuwait 1991
    • Somalia 1993
    • Bosnia 1994, 1995
    • Sudan 1998
    • Afghanistan 1998
    • Yugoslavia 1999
    • Yemen 2002
    • Iraq 1991-2003 (US/UK on regular basis)
    • Iraq 2003-2015
    • Afghanistan 2001-2015
    • Pakistan 2007-2015
    • Somalia 2007-8, 2011
    • Yemen 2009, 2011
    • Libya 2011, 2015
    • Syria 2014-2016

  21. #80
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IngolstadtHarry View Post
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    There you go again. Every time you comment, you associate yourself.

    You're just making an even bigger cock of yourself now. Your lack of self awareness is entirely typical of your type.

  22. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    You're just making an even bigger cock of yourself now. Your lack of self awareness is entirely typical of your type.
    I think that you are just hoping that a little of the truth about Israel will rub off on you. It can't be easy for you, supporting an increasingly unpopular cause.

  23. #82
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IngolstadtHarry View Post
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    I think that you are just hoping that a little of the truth about Israel will rub off on you. It can't be easy for you, supporting an increasingly unpopular cause.

    Literally no idea what you're talking about, but then neither do you.

    You're done Wolfie.

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