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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    New charge on Alcohol

    Good or bad?
    I know there's the argument that it will cut down drinking - but will it?
    Yes. The people who can handle drink will probably have a set budget for it and will just buy less.
    The people who misuse alcohol will still drink the same. They'll get the extra money by cutting out other things like food or maybe resort to crime.
    That's a broad generalisation I know, however I just don't feel this legislation is the correct solution to Scotland's drinking problem. Also, how will it affect the drink industry and who pockets the extra money?


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  3. #2
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Good or bad?
    I know there's the argument that it will cut down drinking - but will it?
    Yes. The people who can handle drink will probably have a set budget for it and will just buy less.
    The people who misuse alcohol will still drink the same. They'll get the extra money by cutting out other things like food or maybe resort to crime.
    That's a broad generalisation I know, however I just don't feel this legislation is the correct solution to Scotland's drinking problem. Also, how will it affect the drink industry and who pockets the extra money?
    The idea is that there won't be extra money (which goes to the producer/retailer) as it's been modelled that the formerly cheap, harmful alcohol falls out of favour.

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Good or bad?
    I know there's the argument that it will cut down drinking - but will it?
    Yes. The people who can handle drink will probably have a set budget for it and will just buy less.
    The people who misuse alcohol will still drink the same. They'll get the extra money by cutting out other things like food or maybe resort to crime.
    That's a broad generalisation I know, however I just don't feel this legislation is the correct solution to Scotland's drinking problem. Also, how will it affect the drink industry and who pockets the extra money?
    It's not intended or designed to solve Scotland's drinking problem on it's own. I know several GPs who feel it will be useful as one policy in the longer term aim of changing people's attitudes to and relationship with alcohol. I really hope that it helps with that.

  5. #4
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Good or bad?
    I know there's the argument that it will cut down drinking - but will it?
    Yes. The people who can handle drink will probably have a set budget for it and will just buy less.
    The people who misuse alcohol will still drink the same. They'll get the extra money by cutting out other things like food or maybe resort to crime.
    That's a broad generalisation I know, however I just don't feel this legislation is the correct solution to Scotland's drinking problem. Also, how will it affect the drink industry and who pockets the extra money?
    The "extra money" goes to the retailer.

    The intention, though, is that the increase in price will reduce consumption, therefore there may be a reduction in income for the retailer.

    The income thing is, for me, irrelevant. It's all about reducing consumption, improving health and reducing the pressure on the NHS and police.

    We have a 5 or 6 year review period for the legislation. If it doesn't "work" (however you define that), it will be repealed. I'm all for giving it the chance. After all, what feasible alternatives have been proposed?

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  6. #5
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Some people will be able to consume less.

    Those with disposable income won't be affected.

    However, if the cheap alcohol increases in price, won't the suppliers want to retain differentials?

    If a bottle of Morrison's own whisky increases to £14 won't Grouse and Bell's increase too?

    If they increase, I'd imagine single malts would also become more expensive.

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  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    Some people will be able to consume less.

    Those with disposable income won't be affected.

    However, if the cheap alcohol increases in price, won't the suppliers want to retain differentials?

    If a bottle of Morrison's own whisky increases to £14 won't Grouse and Bell's increase too?

    If they increase, I'd imagine single malts would also become more expensive.

    Not necessarily.

    I'd imagine that the larger retailers will take a view after a period of time. For them, and remember that they were largely against the legislation, it's all about profit. They'll change their prices if they see fit.

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  8. #7
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    I supposed my main gripe is that it's the old method of stopping a few by hitting everyone when in reality, the few carry on as was.
    e.g. Speed bumps. Slows down the normal drivers. The speeders still zoom over them. Similarly with this drinking law. The hard drinkers will find the extra money somewhere else which in reality makes their situation worse.
    I'm all for addressing Scotland's drinking problem and see the good intention behind this legislation however, I just think it's unfair on the rest of the folk.
    Sledge hammers to kill flies.
    Last edited by snooky; 02-05-2018 at 11:16 AM.

  9. #8
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    I supposed my main gripe is that it's the old method of stopping a few by hitting everyone when in reality, the few carry on as was.
    e.g. Speed bumps. Slows down the normal drivers. The speeders still zoom over them. Similarly with this drinking law. The hard drinkers will find the extra money somewhere else which in reality makes their situation worse.
    I'm all for addressing Scotland's drinking problem and see the good intention behind this legislation however, I just think it's unfair on the rest of the folk.
    Sledge hammers to kill flies.
    It won't affect "normal" drinkers though unless they're partial to cheap cider (does not contain apples) or jakey vodka (does not contain potatoes).

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    It won't affect "normal" drinkers though unless they're partial to cheap cider (does not contain apples) or jakey vodka (does not contain potatoes).
    Some multi-packs of lager might be affected I think? 12 cans of 4% lager for 9.99 for example will increase to closer to £12?

  11. #10
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr White View Post
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    Some multi-packs of lager might be affected I think? 12 cans of 4% lager for 9.99 for example will increase to closer to £12?
    Only if they're half-litre cans.

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Only if they're half-litre cans.
    Aye that seems right. Minimum cost for a 12 pack of 440ml cans will increase to about £10.50 I think? Not a massive hike really.

  13. #12
    @hibs.net private member calumhibee1's Avatar
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    Speaking of alcohol..

    Has anyone ever bought one of these mini kegs of lager in the supermarket? If so, the 3 that Iíve bought have all been horrendously flat, like the pints have been left out overnight. Is it like this for everyone or am I making an arse of it somewhere?

  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    The problem I have with this is if the minimum price is raised from its current level. I think itís a good thing to try and stop the selling of this cheap cider that is only designed for alcoholics to get drunk or children to get started on the road to having a drink problem. Iím sceptical that the minimum price wonít be raised in the future, and hitting moderate drinkers in the pocket as well.

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  15. #14
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The problem I have with this is if the minimum price is raised from its current level. I think itís a good thing to try and stop the selling of this cheap cider that is only designed for alcoholics to get drunk or children to get started on the road to having a drink problem. Iím sceptical that the minimum price wonít be raised in the future, and hitting moderate drinkers in the pocket as well.
    They're reviewing this policy after 6-7 years. I think inflation will easily have overtaken any potential rise.

  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    Some people will be able to consume less.

    Those with disposable income won't be affected.

    However, if the cheap alcohol increases in price, won't the suppliers want to retain differentials?

    If a bottle of Morrison's own whisky increases to £14 won't Grouse and Bell's increase too?

    If they increase, I'd imagine single malts would also become more expensive.

    That's what I thought would happen over time. Be interesting to see if said brands hold off until they've cleaned up the market share (no one will buy Morrison's own when Grouse is the same price) which would presumably force all the own brands out of the market. Then they can start adding a few £££ on to the price tag.

    I agree with the poster above too, this is just the initial phase - I've no doubt it will go up.

    I think it's a reasonable starting point by the government, and will be a success if it is a part of a wider effort to change attitudes - not just this alone. Scotland is the first country to introduce it, but other places have (parts of Canada for instance) and I believe it's had generally positive effects.
    Mon the Hibs.

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The problem I have with this is if the minimum price is raised from its current level. I think itís a good thing to try and stop the selling of this cheap cider that is only designed for alcoholics to get drunk or children to get started on the road to having a drink problem. Iím sceptical that the minimum price wonít be raised in the future, and hitting moderate drinkers in the pocket as well.
    Other than inflation, the only reason the price will increase is if the policy isn't working at 50p. If it's not working at that level, it probably.needs an overall review anyway.

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  18. #17
    @hibs.net private member bod's Avatar
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    I used to buy 3 bottles of wine every week when they were 3 for a tenner.Now that theyíve stopped that Iím down to 1 bottle a week ,now although I disagreed with the Scottish Government scrapping those kind of offers my health must be better for it

  19. #18
    Sheffield Uni have been undertaking the research the Scot Gov are basing the policy on. Their analysis is here:

    https://www.sheffield.ac.uk/polopoly...eport_2016.pdf

    According to their modelling ...

    A 50p MUP is estimated to lead to 2,036 fewer deaths and 38,859 fewer hospitalisations
    during the first 20 years of the policy. After 20 years, when the policy has achieved its full
    effect, there would be an estimated 121 fewer deaths and 2,042 fewer hospital admissions
    per year.
    The proof will be in the pudding but I think it's worth trying.

  20. #19
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    I understand why it's come in, but for me it's frustrating. I usually have a drink once a week - on a Saturday night.

    Usually I would buy a ten pack of stubbies from Tesco for £3.60 which was 10 units (one unit each). The price if I was to do that now would be £5 a 38.9% increase in cost. Whilst most people would argue that £5 isn't a lot to spend (it really isn't) I'd rather be able to keep the cash to myself.

    What's actually happened of course is that they've now gotten rid of the beers I usually drink because for a £5 you can instead buy a more established, well known brand for the same price.

    Of course this will probably stop me drinking once a week, but that's going to have almost no health consequences for me and make no savings for the NHS.

  21. #20
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceinawhile View Post
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    I understand why it's come in, but for me it's frustrating. I usually have a drink once a week - on a Saturday night.

    Usually I would buy a ten pack of stubbies from Tesco for £3.60 which was 10 units (one unit each). The price if I was to do that now would be £5 a 38.9% increase in cost. Whilst most people would argue that £5 isn't a lot to spend (it really isn't) I'd rather be able to keep the cash to myself.

    What's actually happened of course is that they've now gotten rid of the beers I usually drink because for a £5 you can instead buy a more established, well known brand for the same price.

    Of course this will probably stop me drinking once a week, but that's going to have almost no health consequences for me and make no savings for the NHS.
    So the Sainsburys own brand beer I used to buy is now no longer available, assume for same reasons as above. It was 10 250ml bottles for £3.50 but would now cost £5. It was pretty low alcohol content but must have had a unit per bottle.

    So I now actually have to buy more expensive and stronger beer if I fancy a drink.

  22. #21
    Can't see this stopping the problem drinkers one bit. Nothing to stop them chipping in to replace their cheap cider with strong spirits.

    I also notice there has been no increase in buckfast. That's certainly a jakey drink in my book.

    As an snp voter I am growing increasingly disillusioned by recent attempts to treat us all like morons when in fact it is only a small percentage who need some ki d of interventions. Same with bad parenting that requires a named person,call out those who need it and leave the rest of us alone.

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    Can't see this stopping the problem drinkers one bit. Nothing to stop them chipping in to replace their cheap cider with strong spirits.

    I also notice there has been no increase in buckfast. That's certainly a jakey drink in my book.

    As an snp voter I am growing increasingly disillusioned by recent attempts to treat us all like morons when in fact it is only a small percentage who need some ki d of interventions. Same with bad parenting that requires a named person,call out those who need it and leave the rest of us alone.
    100%.
    I'm getting fed up taking a whipping for something I haven't done.
    Stuff all those little nerds with all their modelling, analysis and all the theoretical crap that goes with it.
    Rant over.

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    100%.
    I'm getting fed up taking a whipping for something I haven't done.
    Stuff all those little nerds with all their modelling, analysis and all the theoretical crap that goes with it.
    Rant over.
    Not sure how you are "taking a whipping" here.

    As for "little nerds", experts in alcohol research (including a late friend of mine, who was one of the foremost in that field in the UK) have been saying for over 20 years that the only way to control alcohol consumption is through price. Thus far, nobody has come up with a credible alternative.

    If the pressure on the NHS is relieved, giving us all a greater return for our taxes, (and that's leaving aside the whole argument about being a caring society), is that also "taking a whipping"?

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  25. #24
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    Can't see this stopping the problem drinkers one bit. Nothing to stop them chipping in to replace their cheap cider with strong spirits.

    I also notice there has been no increase in buckfast. That's certainly a jakey drink in my book.

    As an snp voter I am growing increasingly disillusioned by recent attempts to treat us all like morons when in fact it is only a small percentage who need some ki d of interventions. Same with bad parenting that requires a named person,call out those who need it and leave the rest of us alone.
    Every party voted for it in the Parliament, except for the Labour party.

    IIRC, though, it's Labour party policy in England.

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  26. #25
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Good or bad?
    I know there's the argument that it will cut down drinking - but will it?
    Yes. The people who can handle drink will probably have a set budget for it and will just buy less.
    The people who misuse alcohol will still drink the same. They'll get the extra money by cutting out other things like food or maybe resort to crime.
    That's a broad generalisation I know, however I just don't feel this legislation is the correct solution to Scotland's drinking problem. Also, how will it affect the drink industry and who pockets the extra money?
    Has more expensive alcohol increased in price as well?

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Not sure how you are "taking a whipping" here.

    As for "little nerds", experts in alcohol research (including a late friend of mine, who was one of the foremost in that field in the UK) have been saying for over 20 years that the only way to control alcohol consumption is through price. Thus far, nobody has come up with a credible alternative.

    If the pressure on the NHS is relieved, giving us all a greater return for our taxes, (and that's leaving aside the whole argument about being a caring society), is that also "taking a whipping"?

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    You can boil every social ill down to that solution so itís not particularly revolutionary. Sugar, fast food, alcohol, tobacco, Ginsters Cornish pasties etc - just price them out of reach of the folk who canít control their consumption.

    Makes no odds to me as I rarely drink outside a pub but all this policy is really doing is enforcing Ďdesiredí behaviours on folk who canít afford to keep living how they want to. Either that or they keep drinking but something else is cut.

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Not sure how you are "taking a whipping" here.

    As for "little nerds", experts in alcohol research (including a late friend of mine, who was one of the foremost in that field in the UK) have been saying for over 20 years that the only way to control alcohol consumption is through price. Thus far, nobody has come up with a credible alternative.

    If the pressure on the NHS is relieved, giving us all a greater return for our taxes, (and that's leaving aside the whole argument about being a caring society), is that also "taking a whipping"?

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    I did say it was a rant, BTW.

    FWIW, you can control anything by pricing. Let's put road tax up to £5000 a year and just let the rich folk have the roads to themselves. Do the same with drink. £1000 for a bottle of whisky let the chosen few enjoy it. Would that stop the vulnerable drinkers drinking? Instead they'd turn to meths or the like. As I said I'm all for initatives for addressing Scotland's drinking culture. I just think there must be better ways to do it than this scattergun approach. Someone said Buckfast is not affected by this charge. That's a big hole in the hull of HMS Temperance for starters.
    Last edited by snooky; 02-05-2018 at 06:00 PM.

  29. #28
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    I did say it was a rant, BTW.

    FWIW, you can control anything by pricing. Let's put road tax up to £5000 a year and just let the rich folk have the roads to themselves. Do the same with drink. £1000 for a bottle of whisky let the chosen few enjoy it. Would that stop the vulnerable drinkers drinking? Instead they'd go to meths or the like. As I said I'm all for initatives for addressing Scotland's drinking culture. I just think there must be better ways to do it than this scattergun approach. Someone said Buckfast is not affected by this charge. That's a big hole in the hull of HMS Temperance for starters.
    If there are "better ways", what are they? We've had decades to come up with anything.

    Sometimes, when all else fails, Governments have to set social policy. The least we can do is review the situation after 5 years, as the.legislation provides.

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  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Alcohol is one example, but the Scottish government show a distinct lack of trust in the people of Scotland. I am sure they have also changed the law so you can't get any deals like buy one get one free on bottles of wine etc. Punish the many because of the few. I have an app on my phone for my local pub which is a large chain, got a message saying I could get a free pint. Showed the voucher to the barman who then said it was not valid in Scotland due to the laws here.

    The named person is another example as pointed out above. Scotland is also apparently going to be tobacco free by 2034, so if you smoke I hope your making plans to emigrate. (Although never stopped one SNP MSP accepting hospitality from one of the largest tobacco companies)

  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member Hiber-nation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    100%.
    I'm getting fed up taking a whipping for something I haven't done.
    Stuff all those little nerds with all their modelling, analysis and all the theoretical crap that goes with it.
    Rant over.
    My mate was one of the researchers in the Scottish Government's team that brought this forward. Nerd? Well that's debatable

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