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  1. #181
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    But you said the only outcome of this was extra revenue for Russia. My point is that Assad is not in a position to pay for the help he is getting from Russia.

    Which I think leads us to the fact there is no point in any of it!

    Itís a total mess for sure and Iím not suggesting for a second more missiles is any solution but asking for a full UN backed strategy is also asking for the impossible.

    Itís a bloominí mess no matter which angle you take I suppose and the whole Ďinternational communityí should be ashamed of its inability to prevent or attempt to resolve such a long and bloody war.
    Do you think Russia and Iran give weapons for free ?? The government still have access to funds and Mineral wealth


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  3. #182
    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Do you think Russia and Iran give weapons for free ?? The government still have access to funds and Mineral wealth
    Iran have supplied military personell , weapons and billions in cash to Assads regime

  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    What do you think this action will achieve? Other than massaging the egos of a few people it will achieve nothing. Assad is still there, the Russians are still there and people are still dying. There isnít a military solution for the west, and that only leaves two options. Do nothing or find a political solution.
    As was made clear these actions were not designed to alter the course of the war but to make clear that the use of chemical weapons cannot go unchallenged. That to me is a more appropriate, measured response than doing nothing.

  5. #184
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
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    absolutely done the right thing, sends a little message to putin as well, imo

  6. #185
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    The BBC and Daily Mail are clearly winning the propaganda war if people feel this warmongering act is the right thing to do ....lowest denominator of strategy ...only innocents suffer

  7. #186
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    As was made clear these actions were not designed to alter the course of the war but to make clear that the use of chemical weapons cannot go unchallenged. That to me is a more appropriate, measured response than doing nothing.
    It didnít stop it the last time. Assad has shown complete disregard for any sort of intervention so far. Personally I donít see the need for Assad to use chemical weapons in a war that heís clearly winning, it wouldnít surprise me to find out heís doing it to provoke a response, probably encouraged by his allies.

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  8. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Do you think Russia and Iran give weapons for free ?? The government still have access to funds and Mineral wealth
    Nothing is free (Jeremy take note ). They are giving them weapons and oil for a future Ďshareí of the Syrian economy and oil wealth through the many contracts stuck that effectively tie the Syrian regime to Russia forever more.

    The Syrians have been in hock to the Russians since the USSR days and even now are due them many billions. Billions they donít have as oil production has plummeted to almost zero from over 300,000 bpd.

    However the longer the war drags on the more itís costing Russia up front and the more Putin must be wondering just how he gets the end game to play out.

  9. #188
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Putin knows what's going on and I'm sure the western leaders know too. They are muscle flexing at the moment. The difference between the Cuban missile crisis and this one is JFK gave Khrushchev a dignified 'retreat'. I don't think Trump has any clue on how to play that side of the game. The US may hook him soon, however I doubt it.
    OK Coral mentality rules, OK.

  10. #189
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    Saw this on Twitter...

    ď
    So, let me get this straight...

    We're bombing Syria, because Syria bombed Syria, to show Syria that Syria shouldn't bomb Syria.

    Then, after we've bombed Syria for bombing Syria, we still won't accept Syrian refugees that are seeking refuge from the bombing.

    Got it.Ē

  11. #190
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Saw this on Twitter...

    ď
    So, let me get this straight...

    We're bombing Syria, because Syria bombed Syria, to show Syria that Syria shouldn't bomb Syria.

    Then, after we've bombed Syria for bombing Syria, we still won't accept Syrian refugees that are seeking refuge from the bombing.

    Got it.Ē

    "So let me get this straight", then goes on to get it completely the opposite in every single regard.

  12. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    "So let me get this straight", then goes on to get it completely the opposite in every single regard.

    Don't agree with that assessment


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  13. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Don't agree with that assessment


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    Hereís the stats on refugeeís from Syria:

    https://fullfact.org/immigration/syrian-refugees-uk/

  14. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    To be fair over a billion christians believe jesus walked on water , fed 5000 people with a loaf of bread then died and came back to life . Over a billion muslims believe that mohamed flew away on a winged horse to split the moon in half . In that context HomeTeams posts are not that far fetched

  15. #194
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    To be fair over a billion christians believe jesus walked on water , fed 5000 people with a loaf of bread then died and came back to life . Over a billion muslims believe that mohamed flew away on a winged horse to split the moon in half . In that context HomeTeams posts are not that far fetched
    Good point

    Well made


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  16. #195
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    "So let me get this straight", then goes on to get it completely the opposite in every single regard.
    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Don't agree with that assessment


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    "We're bombing Syria, because Syria bombed Syria, to show Syria that Syria shouldn't bomb Syria.

    Then, after we've bombed Syria for bombing Syria, we still won't accept Syrian refugees that are seeking refuge from the bombing."


    The accurate version of the above:

    We're bombing Assad's chemical weapons research, manufacturing and storage facilities, because Assad bombed his own people with chemical weapons, to show Assad that he shouldn't bomb anyone with chemical weapons.

    Then, after we've bombed Assad's chemical weapons research, manufacturing and storage facilities for bombing his own people with chemical weapons, we will continue to accept Syrian refugees that are seeking refuge from Syria's civil war just as we have been doing since the refugee crisis started.

  17. #196
    Coaching Staff Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    The accurate version of the above:

    We're bombing Assad's chemical weapons research, manufacturing and storage facilities, because Assad bombed his own people with chemical weapons, to show Assad that he shouldn't bomb anyone with chemical weapons.

    Then, after we've bombed Assad's chemical weapons research, manufacturing and storage facilities for bombing his own people with chemical weapons, we will continue to accept Syrian refugees that are seeking refuge from Syria's civil war just as we have been doing since the refugee crisis started.
    You make the US and her allies sound like a gang of morally impeccable super-friends who will stop at nothing to ensure that injustices will be dealt with, no matter where they may be.

    You could maybe have included parts about the real target of the chemical weapons (Iíve still not seen any proof though)...western backed rebels, jihadis and salafists.

    You could also have included bits about willy waving competitions with Russia and oil pipelines running through Syria. I was going to include contracts for eventually rebuilding the infrastructure but this isnít about regime change. 😂

  18. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    You could maybe have included parts about the real target of the chemical weapons (I’ve still not seen any proof though)...western backed rebels, jihadis and salafists.
    He may well have been targeting rebels but, as he’s proven repeatedly, Assad doesn’t really give a **** who they affect, including kids. That’s ignoring the fact that they were, you know, chemical weapons.

  19. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    You make the US and her allies sound like a gang of morally impeccable super-friends who will stop at nothing to ensure that injustices will be dealt with, no matter where they may be.
    ,,,, You've just described Team America:World Police!

  20. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    "We're bombing Syria, because Syria bombed Syria, to show Syria that Syria shouldn't bomb Syria.

    Then, after we've bombed Syria for bombing Syria, we still won't accept Syrian refugees that are seeking refuge from the bombing."


    The accurate version of the above:

    We're bombing Assad's chemical weapons research, manufacturing and storage facilities, because Assad bombed his own people with chemical weapons, to show Assad that he shouldn't bomb anyone with chemical weapons.

    Then, after we've bombed Assad's chemical weapons research, manufacturing and storage facilities for bombing his own people with chemical weapons, we will continue to accept Syrian refugees that are seeking refuge from Syria's civil war just as we have been doing since the refugee crisis started.
    ....there is nothing in the war actions this weekend which made life easier for the desperate humanitarian situation in Syria. The only impact is the 100s of Syrian families that have been affected by the deaths of their loved ones in the bombing ...thatís the reality

  21. #200
    Coaching Staff Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    He may well have been targeting rebels but, as heís proven repeatedly, Assad doesnít really give a **** who they affect, including kids. Thatís ignoring the fact that they were, you know, chemical weapons.
    Well weíve only really got Team Americaís word on that, not even mentioning the apportion of blame.

    I know chemical weapons are banned but how many other atrocities are committed by groups and regimes that donít use chemical weapons? Morally, are these crimes, that also donít discriminate, THAT more serious than Assadís alleged crimes because of the method used? Thereís some difference between not even commenting and conducting air-raids.

    One thing Iíll put my mortgage on is that if a group like Boko Haram got hold of chemical weapons, I doubt weíd be in Northern Nigeria helping their government flush out the terrorists. If it was someone like Israel weíd probably be justifying it instead of taking out their facilities (well, America probably would so weíd no doubt follow their lead😂)

  22. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Well weíve only really got Team Americaís word on that, not even mentioning the apportion of blame.

    I know chemical weapons are banned but how many other atrocities are committed by groups and regimes that donít use chemical weapons? Morally, are these crimes, that also donít discriminate, THAT more serious than Assadís alleged crimes because of the method used? Thereís some difference between not even commenting and conducting air-raids.

    One thing Iíll put my mortgage on is that if a group like Boko Haram got hold of chemical weapons, I doubt weíd be in Northern Nigeria helping their government flush out the terrorists. If it was someone like Israel weíd probably be justifying it instead of taking out their facilities (well, America probably would so weíd no doubt follow their lead)
    Straw man alert!

    FWIW if Boko Haram did build a chemical weapons facility then used its output in Nigeria I would be surprised if there wasnít global outrage and an appropriate military response.

    And your point about Israel is rather facile with regards to chemical weapons use.

  23. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    He may well have been targeting rebels but, as heís proven repeatedly, Assad doesnít really give a **** who they affect, including kids. Thatís ignoring the fact that they were, you know, chemical weapons.
    There was no chemical weapons attack though. It was staged and planned......apparently.
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  24. #203
    Coaching Staff Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Straw man alert!

    FWIW if Boko Haram did build a chemical weapons facility then used its output in Nigeria I would be surprised if there wasnít global outrage and an appropriate military response.

    And your point about Israel is rather facile with regards to chemical weapons use.
    Forgive my French but itís made easier by the fact that one of Americaís closest allies isnít even one of the parties to the chemical weapons convention.

    My general point was that while we generally act in good faith, our reaction to certain situations depends greatly on the parties involved and our vested interest. I stand by that and certainly donít believe everything Iím told by our government, their allies and our media.

    As for the attacks, Iím kind of relieved that itís over. Iím left with a felling of ďis that it, what was all the fuss about?Ē as it seems like everyone has saved face, which was probably the main thing.
    Last edited by Pete; 14-04-2018 at 08:13 PM.

  25. #204
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Forgive my French but itís made easier by the fact that one of Americaís closest allies isnít even one of the parties to the chemical weapons convention.

    My general point was that while we generally act in good faith, our reaction to certain situations depends greatly on the parties involved and our vested interest. I stand by that and certainly donít believe everything Iím told by our government, their allies and our media.

    As for the attacks, Iím kind of relieved that itís over. Iím left with a felling of ďis that it, what was all the fuss about?Ē as it seems like everyone has saved face, which was probably the main thing.
    Until the next time. The hawks are in full flow at the moment, and to say otherwise, you're a conspiracy theorist. The right wing have made major in roads into main stream media, and embedded themselves there. You only have to look impartially at the daily politics shows to see what's occurring.

    Watch out now, you'll be tarred with the beefy conspiritist brush

  26. #205
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    How so? I understand some MPs being a bit non-plussed at it not being debated in parliament but thereís no requirement to do so.
    Not true.

    After Iraq, MP's were promised that any military interventions would be discussed in Parliament. It was only a Tory promise though.

  27. #206
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    This is the UK gov legal position on military intervention in Syria.

    https://t.co/if0wBhug0z

    It's based on Humanitarian suffering. Hypocrisy much?

    It seems that humanitarian suffering doesn't matter when it's your allies who are handing it out, or the bottom line is affecting the balance of payments to your bank balance. #YEMEN

  28. #207
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    ....there is nothing in the war actions this weekend which made life easier for the desperate humanitarian situation in Syria. The only impact is the 100s of Syrian families that have been affected by the deaths of their loved ones in the bombing ...thatís the reality
    These are debatable points but they have nothing to do with the fact that the quoted tweet was demonstrably wrong in every single regard.

    In addition, the Russians are saying that no-one was killed in the attacks. Where are you getting your 100s of families affected by deaths of loved ones line from?

  29. #208
    Coaching Staff Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    This is the UK gov legal position on military intervention in Syria.

    https://t.co/if0wBhug0z

    It's based on Humanitarian suffering. Hypocrisy much?

    It seems that humanitarian suffering doesn't matter when it's your allies who are handing it out, or the bottom line is affecting the balance of payments to your bank balance. #YEMEN

    Embarrassing

  30. #209
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    You make the US and her allies sound like a gang of morally impeccable super-friends who will stop at nothing to ensure that injustices will be dealt with, no matter where they may be.

    You could maybe have included parts about the real target of the chemical weapons (Iíve still not seen any proof though)...western backed rebels, jihadis and salafists.

    You could also have included bits about willy waving competitions with Russia and oil pipelines running through Syria. I was going to include contracts for eventually rebuilding the infrastructure but this isnít about regime change. 😂

    I'm not making anyone sound like anything, you're just interpreting it that way. All I've done is point out that the original tweet was a glib steaming pile.

    I've posted elsewhere on how deep seated and complex everything in the Middle East, in particular but not exclusively, is. In between all this 'we must bomb' and 'we must never intervene' moral failure there's a much more nuanced position for the West to take that requires harder thought and a harder sell because it isn't a spin friendly position and it isn't the false black and white certainty that both sides are enjoying serving up to us now.

  31. #210
    Coaching Staff Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    I'm not making anyone sound like anything, you're just interpreting it that way. All I've done is point out that the original tweet was a glib steaming pile.

    I've posted elsewhere on how deep seated and complex everything in the Middle East, in particular but not exclusively, is. In between all this 'we must bomb' and 'we must never intervene' moral failure there's a much more nuanced position for the West to take that requires harder thought and a harder sell because it isn't a spin friendly position and it isn't the false black and white certainty that both sides are enjoying serving up to us now.
    While I disagree with the recent military action, I canít disagree with anything youíve said here.

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