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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Hmm, i dont know.

    You say 3 leaders who are weak, they are also the 3 leaders who historically take the lead on western military issues, so i dont read anything into that - and apparently a german ship is part of the US carrier group that is en route, so they ar supportive within their semi-pacifist approach.

    Its not hollow in the sense that the west habe demonstrated they have both the means and the will to intevene in certain circumstances, which is part of the point. I suppose only future actions will tell us if this has worked.

    We may, or may not, have degraded or destroyed their chem weapons infrastructure, again we will have to wait and see.

    Wr have also demonstrated to russia that we are not afraid to act, but that we are prepared to work with them via existing communications channels to stop wider conflicts.

    I think the future actions of syria and russia will be the best way to judge their success or otherwise, but given where things looked to be heading, i think this shows that rational and sensible people won the day, and that old systems of deescalation can still work - that is an important point, and makes me feel a helluva lot more confortable than i did about trump and putin facing off.

    There is no de-escalation here.. bombing without a strategy for overall resolution is like a bully picking on the little kid in the pack..there is nothing systemically changed as a result of this..as said in earlier post you could argue that Assad is politically stronger as a result.


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  3. #152
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    It's a hollow act though isn't it...three leaders weak in public opinion, taking an "assertive response" without any meaningful result. It is interesting me that Merkel, the most secure leader in the large western powers, choose to take no part..
    Merkel is either the most secure leader in the West or on a shoogly peg depending on your particular political agenda.

  4. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Merkel is either the most secure leader in the West or on a shoogly peg depending on your particular political agenda.

    Yeah, I understand those dimensions - she is secure in her own policies and strategy though - doesn't pander as much to populist acts like lesser leaders

  5. #154
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Yeah, I understand those dimensions - she is secure in her own policies and strategy though - doesn't pander as much to populist acts like lesser leaders
    Most Germans are the same. They've been to the school of hard knocks when it comes to populistic leaders.

  6. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Most Germans are the same. They've been to the school of hard knocks when it comes to populistic leaders.

    that is for sure....

  7. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    There is no de-escalation here.. bombing without a strategy for overall resolution is like a bully picking on the little kid in the pack..there is nothing systemically changed as a result of this..as said in earlier post you could argue that Assad is politically stronger as a result.
    Well given we had the real risk of russia and the west getting into a shooting match, i think there has been a deescalation.

    Like i say, we dont know what has changed. If Assads willingness or capability to use chem weapons is diminshed or destoyed, then its mission accomplished surely?

    Ultimately it is a judgement call, im not sure there are right and wrong answers in these very complicated questions of international relations.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 14-04-2018 at 07:54 AM.

  8. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    If you take your news from conspiracy theorists on YouTube then youíve taken a wrong turn somewhere.
    If you rely on BBC and other mainstream outlets for your news...You clearly don't really know what's going on.

  9. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Well given we had the real risk of russia and the west getting into a shooting match, i think there has been a deescalation.

    Like i say, we dont know what has changed. If Assads willingness or capability to use chem weapons is diminshed or destoyed, then its mission accomplished surely?

    The only impact on Russia is that it will get a big new order for s-400 air defence Missiles from Assad.....

  10. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    If you rely on BBC and other mainstream outlets for your news...You clearly don't really know what's going on.
    Each to their own but Iíll trust a professional outfit with a long history of reporting the news over a semi-lucid, highly emotive random with a GoPro every time.

  11. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    The only impact on Russia is that it will get a big new order for s-400 air defence Missiles from Assad.....
    So what? That isnt really relevant to why we did what we did? The russians were already supplying them to syria, so how is that a change?

    Also, i presume everytime we go against these weapons systems, we will learn a great deal about them and their effectiveness, which would lessen their effectiveness against us in the future- useful intelligence i would habe thought, and intel the russians would be reluctant to give up easily.

  12. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So what? That isnt really relevant to why we did what we did? The russians were already supplying them to syria, so how is that a change?

    Also, i presume everytime we go against these weapons systems, we will learn a great deal about them and their effectiveness, which would lessen their effectiveness against us in the future- useful intelligence i would habe thought, and intel the russians would be reluctant to give up easily.

    My point is that there is only positive value in this actions for Russia..no de-escalation - just more revenue

    these weapons are well understood, there is absolutely no need to deploy weapons against them to understand them more...

  13. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    My point is that there is only positive value in this actions for Russia..no de-escalation - just more revenue

    these weapons are well understood, there is absolutely no need to deploy weapons against them to understand them more...
    I disagree that there is only positive value for russia, but i think we risk going around in circles on this!

  14. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I disagree that there is only positive value for russia, but i think we risk going around in circles on this!

    yeah. fair play....decent chat though - always interesting to hear different views..for me, it remains a futile action, serving only leader's egos

  15. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    yeah. fair play....decent chat though - always interesting to hear different views..for me, it remains a futile action, serving only leader's egos
    Totally, and as i say, i dont think its a case of 'im right, yoyre wrong', these whole issues are massive grey areas in my view.

  16. #165
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    Fear not . The Avengers will be along in the 25th to save the day.

  17. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenlex View Post
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    Fear not . The Avengers will be along in the 25th to save the day.
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  18. #167
    A bold and IMHO correct move from May. Important to have France very much to the fore rather than just Trump, but I thought she spoke well this morning and clearly stated the case for having taken action. Corbyn can bleat all he likes but his position on this has been, in keeping with his foreign 'policy' in general, pathetic. His default mantra is to call for political solutions, with any intervention being UN-led. This is a war which has lasted for seven years with any attempt at political dialogue having failed at every turn. To pretend that Labour could pull something out of the hat is nothing more than hollow posturing. He also knows full well that any UN action has been repeatedly vetoed by Russia and is therefore a non-starter so his foreign 'policy' can be most accurately summed up as 'do nothing.'

    There are rulers such as Putin and Assad who will never listen to reason, which is why in cases like this, such action is deemed the correct course.

  19. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    A bold and IMHO correct move from May. Important to have France very much to the fore rather than just Trump, but I thought she spoke well this morning and clearly stated the case for having taken action. Corbyn can bleat all he likes but his position on this has been, in keeping with his foreign 'policy' in general, pathetic. His default mantra is to call for political solutions, with any intervention being UN-led. This is a war which has lasted for seven years with any attempt at political dialogue having failed at every turn. To pretend that Labour could pull something out of the hat is nothing more than hollow posturing. He also knows full well that any UN action has been repeatedly vetoed by Russia and is therefore a non-starter so his foreign 'policy' can be most accurately summed up as 'do nothing.'

    There are rulers such as Putin and Assad who will never listen to reason, which is why in cases like this, such action is deemed the correct course.
    What do you think this action will achieve? Other than massaging the egos of a few people it will achieve nothing. Assad is still there, the Russians are still there and people are still dying. There isnít a military solution for the west, and that only leaves two options. Do nothing or find a political solution.

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  20. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    The only impact on Russia is that it will get a big new order for s-400 air defence Missiles from Assad.....
    Assad is skint. So any Ďnew orderí for missiles will simply lump greater cost onto Russia for what is already turning out to be a rather expensive foray. The concept that Assad has significant cash flow that heís using to pay up front for military gear from Russia is a one flawed I would suggest.

    Putin is finding out just how expensive these types of foreign interventions are and how difficult it is to exit them once you become embroiled.

    As for the strikes strengthening Assadís political position...there is only one reason he is still there and likely to remain and thatís Russia. A few missiles from the West doesnít change that dynamic one bit.

    Iím not sure anyone really believes that the missile strikes will have any great long term impact in terms of the outcome of the civil war but to some degree Iím not sure what the West should do. IF there was chemical weapon use (staged of course according to Russians...a familiar story from them) then mealy mouthed jaw jaw at the U.N. is not going to resolve the situation or reduce the likelihood of it happening again. So something needed to be done to remind all parties that the use of such weapons is still a red line.

  21. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    What do you think this action will achieve? Other than massaging the egos of a few people it will achieve nothing. Assad is still there, the Russians are still there and people are still dying. There isnít a military solution for the west, and that only leaves two options. Do nothing or find a political solution.
    Judging by your reply, Iím guessing he shoehorned a point or two about Syria into his regular dig at Jeremy Corbyn. 😂

  22. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Assad is skint. So any Ďnew orderí for missiles will simply lump greater cost onto Russia for what is already turning out to be a rather expensive foray. The concept that Assad has significant cash flow that heís using to pay up front for military gear from Russia is a one flawed I would suggest.

    Putin is finding out just how expensive these types of foreign interventions are and how difficult it is to exit them once you become embroiled.

    As for the strikes strengthening Assadís political position...there is only one reason he is still there and likely to remain and thatís Russia. A few missiles from the West doesnít change that dynamic one bit.

    Iím not sure anyone really believes that the missile strikes will have any great long term impact in terms of the outcome of the civil war but to some degree Iím not sure what the West should do. IF there was chemical weapon use (staged of course according to Russians...a familiar story from them) then mealy mouthed jaw jaw at the U.N. is not going to resolve the situation or reduce the likelihood of it happening again. So something needed to be done to remind all parties that the use of such weapons is still a red line.
    Russia and Iran remain active in supply of weapon army to the Syrian government...Qatar known to be supporting the rebels with weapons and financial support...

    Bombing without a UN backed full strategy to resolve the Syrian crisis is of no value to the Syrian people....there have been 10 or more instances of chemical weapons being used in Syria in the last 7 years, all actions and sanctions have made no impact in those events...the action overnight will again do nothing to resolve the situation


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  23. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Russia and Iran remain active in supply of weapon army to the Syrian government...Qatar known to be supporting the rebels with weapons and financial support...

    Bombing without a UN backed full strategy to resolve the Syrian crisis is of no value to the Syrian people....there have been 10 or more instances of chemical weapons being used in Syria in the last 7 years, all actions and sanctions have made no impact in those events...the action overnight will again do nothing to resolve the situation


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    But you said the only outcome of this was extra revenue for Russia. My point is that Assad is not in a position to pay for the help he is getting from Russia.

    Which I think leads us to the fact there is no point in any of it!

    Itís a total mess for sure and Iím not suggesting for a second more missiles is any solution but asking for a full UN backed strategy is also asking for the impossible.

    Itís a bloominí mess no matter which angle you take I suppose and the whole Ďinternational communityí should be ashamed of its inability to prevent or attempt to resolve such a long and bloody war.

  24. #173
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    It's a hollow act though isn't it...three leaders weak in public opinion, taking an "assertive response" without any meaningful result. It is interesting me that Merkel, the most secure leader in the large western powers, choose to take no part..
    Indeed. Meanwhile 70 people died last night at our hands.

    70 families, who have lost fathers, sons, brothers.

    If itís just a PR stunt, why bother? It had little if any military effect. Utterly pointless, just makes us (the West) feel a wee bit better.

    Meanwhile the Saudis (our allies and business partners) are bombing Yeminis and blockading their ports, effectively starving the population. 5 children a day either starving to death or being killed with British and American sold weapons.

    But thatís OK?

    Hypocrites!

    J
    Last edited by Bristolhibby; 14-04-2018 at 10:19 AM.

  25. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Indeed. Meanwhile 70 people died last night at our hands.

    70 families, who have lost fathers, sons, brothers.

    If itís just a PR stunt, why bother? It had little if any military effect. Utterly pointless, just makes us (the West) feel a wee bit better.

    Meanwhile the Saudis (our allies and business partners) are bombing Yeminis and blockading their ports, effectively starving the population. 5 children a day either starving to death or being killed with British and American sold weapons.

    But thatís OK?

    Hypocrites!

    J
    where you getting this from ?

  26. #175
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Judging by your reply, Iím guessing he shoehorned a point or two about Syria into his regular dig at Jeremy Corbyn. 😂
    He did

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  27. #176
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    Each to their own but Iíll trust a professional outfit with a long history of reporting the news over a semi-lucid, highly emotive random with a GoPro every time.
    You can watch and listen to both you know?

    The options arenít digital.

    In this Information Age, we should seek to understand and challenge all information that we see and come to our own balanced conclusions.

    J

  28. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Indeed. Meanwhile 70 people died last night at our hands.

    70 families, who have lost fathers, sons, brothers.

    If itís just a PR stunt, why bother? It had little if any military effect. Utterly pointless, just makes us (the West) feel a wee bit better.

    Meanwhile the Saudis (our allies and business partners) are bombing Yeminis and blockading their ports, effectively starving the population. 5 children a day either starving to death or being killed with British and American sold weapons.

    But thatís OK?

    Hypocrites!

    J
    Russia have stated that no-one was hurt.

  29. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    You can watch and listen to both you know?

    The options arenít digital.

    In this Information Age, we should seek to understand and challenge all information that we see and come to our own balanced conclusions.

    J
    Iím more than capable of collating information before making my own opinions. Like everything though, I filter out the rubbish. I wouldnít take information on software development from a building surveyor. Itís the same with folk whose only qualification on reporting news is having a YouTube channel.

  30. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    What do you think this action will achieve? Other than massaging the egos of a few people it will achieve nothing. Assad is still there, the Russians are still there and people are still dying. There isnít a military solution for the west, and that only leaves two options. Do nothing or find a political solution.
    The strike is reported as being aimed at Assadís chemical weapons capability. It doesnít seem like it was intended to kill Assad or force the Russians out of Syria so isnít arguing those as failures a bit of a straw man?

  31. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    A bold and IMHO correct move from May. Important to have France very much to the fore rather than just Trump, but I thought she spoke well this morning and clearly stated the case for having taken action. Corbyn can bleat all he likes but his position on this has been, in keeping with his foreign 'policy' in general, pathetic. His default mantra is to call for political solutions, with any intervention being UN-led. This is a war which has lasted for seven years with any attempt at political dialogue having failed at every turn. To pretend that Labour could pull something out of the hat is nothing more than hollow posturing. He also knows full well that any UN action has been repeatedly vetoed by Russia and is therefore a non-starter so his foreign 'policy' can be most accurately summed up as 'do nothing.'

    There are rulers such as Putin and Assad who will never listen to reason, which is why in cases like this, such action is deemed the correct course.

    The strikes on Syria has really achieved nothing other than giving Assad carte blanche. The threat of terrorism has possibly been raised by May's actions. A pointless exercise.

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