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  1. #61
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    This situation has developed over Conservative, Labour and Coalition administrations. While politicians set the tone, civil servants would and should have been able to recommend policy to avoid this. At the same time, immigration is such a complex issue that sane advice by civil servants won't necessarily overcome political imperatives. And if we want to look where to blame for that we only need examine ourselves as a society.

    My take is this is messy. Home Office policy and immigration policy especially, tends to be complex, often short-termist and often populist in order to meet a perceived need of reaction, regardless of the colour of rosette the Home Secretary wears. Point-scoring is ultimately pointless but easy to do.
    I suppose that would explain why you Labour guys are circling your wagons together with the Tories on this. Nobody knows how many have been effected and I'm sure measures will have been taken to ensure nobody will.

    This is the fault of the Westminster government at all levels and involving the big 2 parties. Is this why you're attacking the man and ignoring the ball?


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  3. #62
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    I thought you said you had started count. Can you not remember what number you got to?

    Is this a general affliction for Nationalists? It maybe explains why the NHS waiting time targets keep getting missed?
    Poor post, even by you're standards.

    I lost count, because the numbers keep changing, and it's not only one or two people affected.

    I could understand it, if it were only one or two people, but we've got families broken up and people detained or deported, and you seem to think it's funny.


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  4. #63
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Is that how you lost count?




    Correct, and I never claimed I did but I did manage to keep a tally of all those that I did read about.

    I'm sure the home office will be round shortly to get an update from you.

    I'd go even further and suggest to prevent a further PR disaster the Home Office will be very lenient on the processing of those individuals concerned.



    But surely it wasn't just the Tories, who was in political power when these "Commonwealth" citizens were invited over.
    What about the permanent ministers, civil servants. They are not all signed up party political members.
    This is an institutional cock up. If Home Secretaries fall, then that will be considered a win by some but won't make one iota of difference to those who want to remain in a country they call home.
    Earlier in the thread, you seemed to be quite happy with the changes made to the immigration policy by the Tories. Changes which affected all those families. I'm sure your "friend", will be delighted.

    I'm out for another week, make sure and keep a tally now. 👌😩


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  5. #64
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Earlier in the thread, you seemed to be quite happy with the changes made to the immigration policy by the Tories.
    Did I?
    What I actually said was "I see no harm in firming up immigration policy in regards to employment and access to our social care system, but it has to be fair",,,,FAIR!
    That's a wee bit different to saying I'm happy and miles away from me being ecstatic about the current bureaucratic mess we have on our hands.

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Did I?
    What I actually said was "I see no harm in firming up immigration policy in regards to employment and access to our social care system, but it has to be fair",,,,FAIR!
    That's a wee bit different to saying I'm happy and miles away from me being ecstatic about the current bureaucratic mess we have on our hands.
    Hey, I suppose, one man's, disgusting, is another's tickety boo.

    Just not sure yet pal would enjoy the go home vans though.

    Enjoy your day. 🌞


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  7. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Did I?
    What I actually said was "I see no harm in firming up immigration policy in regards to employment and access to our social care system, but it has to be fair",,,,FAIR!
    That's a wee bit different to saying I'm happy and miles away from me being ecstatic about the current bureaucratic mess we have on our hands.
    It's the rules on here. Question an outlandish statement that can't be defended and, before you know it, it's been turned back on you in an attempt to distract from the original issue. Either that or you get into an argument on the [hidden] meaning behind a word ("well yes, I used the word 'never' but what I actually meant was 'less than once a fortnight'. I thought that was obvious").

  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Could you three get a room please.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  9. #68
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    It's the rules on here. Question an outlandish statement that can't be defended and, before you know it, it's been turned back on you in an attempt to distract from the original issue. Either that or you get into an argument on the [hidden] meaning behind a word ("well yes, I used the word 'never' but what I actually meant was 'less than once a fortnight'. I thought that was obvious").
    Ha ha, yes, pedantry seems to be more prolific here than political ideals.

  10. #69
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Could you three get a room please.
    I'll assume I'm one of the trolling triumvirate?
    Don't worry, I'll bow out from this convo as (I'd hazard a guess that R7 feels the same) it's starting to feel like I'm smacking my head against an incredibly dense brick wall.

    Peace brothers!

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I'll assume I'm one of the trolling triumvirate?
    Don't worry, I'll bow out from this convo as (I'd hazard a guess that R7 feels the same) it's starting to feel like I'm smacking my head against an incredibly dense brick wall.

    Peace brothers!
    I wasn't calling it trolling but the love-in was getting a bit embarrassing. :-)
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  12. #71
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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  13. #72
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I am sure nearly every single MP is guilty of some kind of hypocrisy at some point in their careers. At this point was she not in the opposition, so therefore was doing her job and holding the government of the day to account. Just exactly what is happening today, it's what you expect the opposition to do and so they should.

    If we raked through all statements MPs said over the last 20 years I am sure there are many more cases.

  14. #73
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I am sure nearly every single MP is guilty of some kind of hypocrisy at some point in their careers. At this point was she not in the opposition, so therefore was doing her job and holding the government of the day to account. Just exactly what is happening today, it's what you expect the opposition to do and so they should.

    If we raked through all statements MPs said over the last 20 years I am sure there are many more cases.
    I was expecting a response like that. Every time the Tories get caught spaffing hypocritical horse manure the inevitable response is but but but all politicians are corrupt but but but Jeremy Corbyn IRA but but but everyone's at it.

  15. #74
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I was expecting a response like that. Every time the Tories get caught spaffing hypocritical horse manure the inevitable response is but but but all politicians are corrupt but but but Jeremy Corbyn IRA but but but everyone's at it.
    I hope you live your life by these high standards you expect from others. As you pointed out it's all parties, but they are doing their job, if they get it wrong then and it's serious like the rest of us they will get sacked.

    Politics is riddled with hypocrisy, it's how it works.

    We would have no politicians left if they all resigned every time they made a mistake or someone dug something up from 15 years ago they said that is different to what they say today.

    Lucky we live on a democracy though, if people don't like it then they get voted out.

  16. #75
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I was expecting a response like that. Every time the Tories get caught spaffing hypocritical horse manure the inevitable response is but but but all politicians are corrupt but but but Jeremy Corbyn IRA but but but everyone's at it.
    ... and their meaning being, that makes it okay.

    Clyde/banana boat

  17. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I hope you live your life by these high standards you expect from others. As you pointed out it's all parties, but they are doing their job, if they get it wrong then and it's serious like the rest of us they will get sacked.

    Politics is riddled with hypocrisy, it's how it works.

    We would have no politicians left if they all resigned every time they made a mistake or someone dug something up from 15 years ago they said that is different to what they say today.

    Lucky we live on a democracy though, if people don't like it then they get voted out.
    To be fair, i think you are both kinda right. Politics is riddled with it, but to Hibrandenburg's point, it is an unsatisfactory response, and it isnt really good enough to hide behind whataboutery.

    Its absolutely not confined to the tories though- it probably seems it because the political make-up of this board sees thebtories get called-out more often.

  18. #77
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I hope you live your life by these high standards you expect from others. As you pointed out it's all parties, but they are doing their job, if they get it wrong then and it's serious like the rest of us they will get sacked.

    Politics is riddled with hypocrisy, it's how it works.

    We would have no politicians left if they all resigned every time they made a mistake or someone dug something up from 15 years ago they said that is different to what they say today.

    Lucky we live on a democracy though, if people don't like it then they get voted out.
    I try my very best to live within the standards I expect from myself and others. If I was to demand someone should resign for whatever reason than it stands to reason I'd resign if I was guilty of the same mistake.

    Saying everyone is at it isn't really gonna change things is it? All that does is make it acceptable when it's not.

  19. #78
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    To be fair, i think you are both kinda right. Politics is riddled with it, but to Hibrandenburg's point, it is an unsatisfactory response, and it isnt really good enough to hide behind whataboutery.

    Its absolutely not confined to the tories though- it probably seems it because the political make-up of this board sees thebtories get called-out more often.

    That's about the long and the short of it, but it still can't be used as an excuse to accept lies and incompetence.

  20. #79
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    That's about the long and the short of it, but it still can't be used as an excuse to accept lies and incompetence.
    Both of which, Amber Rudd has shown in the last few days. The Tories will line up behind her for a few more days as long as May is off the hook.


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  21. #80
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    It's the rules on here. Question an outlandish statement that can't be defended and, before you know it, it's been turned back on you in an attempt to distract from the original issue. Either that or you get into an argument on the [hidden] meaning behind a word ("well yes, I used the word 'never' but what I actually meant was 'less than once a fortnight'. I thought that was obvious").



    Its the pattern on most threads on the Holy Ground.

    that, and for certain posters, using any little thing to criticise certain political parties, but shrugging off any criticism of their party with smug smileys and whataboutery.

    Debate seems to happen less and less, sadly

  22. #81
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Putting aside the pedantry on this thread on whether it's Windrush, Windrush generation, or Windrush cohort, this debacle of the Tory Government has to stop. More and more stories are coming out of the woodwork (this covers all wood) and this latest one is rather disgusting.

    When will Theresa and co take responsibility for their actions/lack of actions.

    https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/ne...mothers/28/04/

    “I am very concerned about Yvonne Williams’ situation. She has no family left in Jamaica and her grandchildren and mother are in the UK (after her mother arrived as part of the ‘Windrush Generation’). The way she is being treated suggests the government really doesn’t ‘get it’ when it comes to the treatment of Windrush generation people and their families.”


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  23. #82
    I'm convinced Rudd is only still in a job to take the fall further down the line. Something bigger is going to come out and her resignation then will be used to placate those calling for May to go.

    This should almost he enough to bring the government down but the incompetent oppostion seem to be sleeping yet again.

  24. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    That's about the long and the short of it, but it still can't be used as an excuse to accept lies and incompetence.
    Totally.

    They say people get the politicians they deserve - maybe we all need to think about what kind of people we want representing us, and not just go for the same old same old.

  25. #84
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    One down, more to go.

    Rudd resigns.


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  26. #85

  27. #86
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Come on Fluffy, let's see those broad shoulders of support we were all promised.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...tland-44316580

  28. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Come on Fluffy, let's see those broad shoulders of support we were all promised.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...tland-44316580
    "Sharing and pooling resources" is the go to phrase for situations like this.

  29. #88
    http://www.thenational.scot/comment/...es_in_nothing/

    This is a pretty decent summation of Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Tories. Her attempt at relaunching them as a centrist party may work though, especially with the help of her admirers in the commentariat

  30. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    http://www.thenational.scot/comment/...es_in_nothing/

    This is a pretty decent summation of Ruth Davidson and the Scottish Tories. Her attempt at relaunching them as a centrist party may work though, especially with the help of her admirers in the commentariat
    Bloodless ghouls? The article is so full of petty and rather childish descriptions of ‘Tories’ that it’s almost impossible to take any of the rest of it seriously.

    I’m sure there is plenty of examination the National could do on Ruth and the Scottish Conservatives policies but it should really try and do so without littering it’s articles with tawdry insults and name calling...they never know it might help the reader to think that the article was at least half based on an objective view.

  31. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Bloodless ghouls? The article is so full of petty and rather childish descriptions of ‘Tories’ that it’s almost impossible to take any of the rest of it seriously.

    I’m sure there is plenty of examination the National could do on Ruth and the Scottish Conservatives policies but it should really try and do so without littering it’s articles with tawdry insults and name calling...they never know it might help the reader to think that the article was at least half based on an objective view.
    I was told fairly recently by someone who used to work for the SNP that they, and many others within the party, see the National as extreme, and representing the loony wing of the pro-Indy movement too much.

    It's almost as if it has become a mirror image of the very pro-union rags these people railed against, like the Mail.

    It's a shame, because a serious, pro-indy daily would have been no bad thing.

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