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  1. #1

    Tories are lying *******s (warning may contain traces of Tory)

    It's international fact checking day! And to celebrate, fact checking site the ferret has collated their results from the past year.

    https://theferret.scot/ferret-fact-s...cking-numbers/

    Scottish Tories:



    By comparison, the SNP (Scot Labour results were broadly similar).



    They really are a shower of shameless shysters.


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  3. #2
    First Team Breakthrough Lendo's Avatar
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    I’ll be stealing this to win a few arguments with Conservative friends.

  4. #3
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Not exactly an extensive survey, is it. More of a straw poll of someone’s social network.

  5. #4
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    They're at it again.

    Detention of people who came here on the Windrush many moons ago.

    Absolutely disgusting that May and co have re-written the immigration policy. Remember the vans going round London, with the "go home" logos on them.

    I'd imagine the Europeans looking in on this, will have to get any deals, post brexit signed in blood, although the Tories might just like that.


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  6. #5
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Detention of people who came here on the Windrush many moons ago.
    Wow, this isn't exactly true now, is it? Story of a 35 year old potentially being deported but this has now been halted until further checks are made. 35 year old, nowhere near the Windrush!

    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Absolutely disgusting that May and co have re-written the immigration policy.
    The Immigration Act 2014,disgusting, really?

    Personally I don't think it's a bad thing that we're required to prove our legitimate legal status. Many people I know have had to do it when applying for a job or when they went through the recent disability benefit/universal credit change.
    The problem is what they are asking for and from whom. I'm not sure I could provide all the evidence they are after over the length of my life, it gets harder if you have long periods of unemployment or cash in hand work such as one guy being interviewed on LBC. 50+ year old, registered birth in UK but doesn't know if he's legal or not?!?
    When you hear of stories (Guardian) that the Home Office deliberately destroyed landing cards/slips back in 2010 I'm not sure you can blame just one party here, something has broken in the system!

  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Wow, this isn't exactly true now, is it? Story of a 35 year old potentially being deported but this has now been halted until further checks are made. 35 year old, nowhere near the Windrush!


    I'm afraid it is true. I saw a couple on the news (it was the BBC though) this morning. The old lady had been detained for a fortnight and was then told she could remain, but would have to apply again in 2024. Her daughter was rather angry.

    You might think this is fine and dandy, I don't.


    The Immigration Act 2014,disgusting, really?

    Personally I don't think it's a bad thing that we're required to prove our legitimate legal status. Many people I know have had to do it when applying for a job or when they went through the recent disability benefit/universal credit change.
    The problem is what they are asking for and from whom. I'm not sure I could provide all the evidence they are after over the length of my life, it gets harder if you have long periods of unemployment or cash in hand work such as one guy being interviewed on LBC. 50+ year old, registered birth in UK but doesn't know if he's legal or not?!?
    When you hear of stories (Guardian) that the Home Office deliberately destroyed landing cards/slips back in 2010 I'm not sure you can blame just one party here, something has broken in the system!

    The way that the Tories have handled this situation just shows their true colours, and how they pandered to the far right in this country. Immigration vans going round estates telling people to go home. These are people who've worked hard and paid taxes for the last 40 odd years.

    As I said, disgusting, but that doesn't really cover it.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ration-amnesty
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 17-04-2018 at 06:05 PM.


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  8. #7
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Wow, this isn't exactly true now, is it? Story of a 35 year old potentially being deported but this has now been halted until further checks are made. 35 year old, nowhere near the Windrush!
    Have a read of these stories from 8 normal Britions treated like criminals through no fault of their own. Real people with real disgraceful stories.

    One poor guy has been denied Cancer treatment! Shameful.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ration-amnesty

    Edit just seen the link above.

    J

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Have a read of these stories from 8 normal Britions treated like criminals through no fault of their own. Real people with real disgraceful stories.

    One poor guy has been denied Cancer treatment! Shameful.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ration-amnesty

    Edit just seen the link above.

    J
    Sheesh what a mess!

    I get the fact that these people didn’t have documentation and maybe they should have thought about that before now (and shows how slack our system was previously for such things) but really? Some of these people have been here 50 years and to then summarily dump them in detention centres is simply wrong no matter which way you look at it.

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Some more reading for you Speedy. Deliberately destroying documents. If that's what takes your fancy.

    The Home Office destroyed thousands of landing card slips recording Windrush immigrants’ arrival dates in the UK, despite staff warnings that the move would make it harder to check the records of older Caribbean-born residents experiencing residency difficulties.
    A former Home Office employee said the records, stored in the basement of a government tower block, were a vital resource for case workers when they were asked to find information about someone’s arrival date in the UK from the West Indies – usually when the individual was struggling to resolve immigration status problems.

    He said he noticed a change in approach to these cases after the announcement of the “hostile environment” policy by May, then home secretary. In 2009 and 2010, managers gave case workers and members of his team time to look into cases. “Generally speaking, most Home Office staff want to try to do the right thing and be fair, within the rules,” he said.
    But from 2013 onwards, he said, staff were “given no leeway to make a judgment call”. The changed atmosphere combined with staff cuts made it a more unpleasant place to work and many experienced staff took redundancy, he said. The people who remained were told: “These are the rules, stick to them.”
    He decided to leave at around this time. “I am so angry that people are being treated in a way which is just abhorrent.”

    https://t.co/M8z3dG5MBu
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 17-04-2018 at 06:34 PM.


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  11. #10
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Some more reading for you Speedy. Deliberately destroying documents. If that's what takes your fancy.

    The Home Office destroyed thousands of landing card slips recording Windrush immigrants’ arrival dates in the UK, despite staff warnings that the move would make it harder to check the records of older Caribbean-born residents experiencing residency difficulties.
    A former Home Office employee said the records, stored in the basement of a government tower block, were a vital resource for case workers when they were asked to find information about someone’s arrival date in the UK from the West Indies – usually when the individual was struggling to resolve immigration status problems.

    https://t.co/M8z3dG5MBu
    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    When you hear of stories (Guardian) that the Home Office deliberately destroyed landing cards/slips back in 2010 I'm not sure you can blame just one party here, something has broken in the system!
    Do you actually bother reading what anyone else writes?

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Have a read of these stories from 8 normal Britions treated like criminals through no fault of their own. Real people with real disgraceful stories.

    One poor guy has been denied Cancer treatment! Shameful.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ration-amnesty

    Edit just seen the link above.

    J
    I'd already read that article and others. Whilst there are personal tragic stories I'm not sure how we make it right once and for all. The vast majority of affected people that I've seen/read/heard all seem to fall down in the passport application or lack of having one. I know a couple of guys of Caribbean descent that live/work in London for the railway, same age as me (so early 40's ) and have NEVER had a passport. They are sweating, Network Rail are happy with their background but they might not always work for NR.
    The fact is we opened our arms to these folk to help bolster the workforce and never gave them the correct legal/legitimate status when they landed. Many have become legitimate over the years by applying for passports, marrying, registering births but there's a significant number that haven't and the reality is catching up with them now due to the 2014 Immigration Act.
    Like I said in my previous post, I see no harm in firming up immigration policy in regards to employment and access to our social care system, but it has to be fair

  13. #12
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Do you actually bother reading what anyone else writes?
    And do you still believe the stories are not true?

    Jeez.

    It was Treeza wot did it.

    He said he noticed a change in approach to these cases after the announcement of the “hostile environment” policy by May, then home secretary. In 2009 and 2010, managers gave case workers and members of his team time to look into cases. “Generally speaking, most Home Office staff want to try to do the right thing and be fair, within the rules,” he said.
    But from 2013 onwards, he said, staff were “given no leeway to make a judgment call”. The changed atmosphere combined with staff cuts made it a more unpleasant place to work and many experienced staff took redundancy, he said. The people who remained were told: “These are the rules, stick to them.”
    He decided to leave at around this time. “I am so angry that people are being treated in a way which is just abhorrent.”
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 17-04-2018 at 06:45 PM.


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  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    And do you still believe the stories are not true?

    Jeez.
    You sir are hard work. I quote that I read the deliberate destroying of landing cards from the Guardian. That would infer I've read the article. You then come along and quote what I've already read but tell me to read it then have the temerity to ask if I believe it or not,,,,it was ME that mentioned it!

    Edited to ask "what stories do I believe are not true?"
    Last edited by speedy_gonzales; 17-04-2018 at 06:49 PM.

  15. #14
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    You sir are hard work. I quote that I read the deliberate destroying of landing cards from the Guardian. That would infer I've read the article. You then come along and quote what I've already read but tell me to read it then have the temerity to ask if I believe it or not,,,,it was ME that mentioned it!

    Edited to ask "what stories do I believe are not true?"
    If only you could at least come out and say Treeza got it wrong. It won't help those still in the detention centres though.

    It's just not true, is it.


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  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    If only you could at least come out and say Treeza got it wrong. It won't help those still in the detention centres though.

    It's just not true, is it.
    Treeza got it wrong, right now that's out of the way, how would you have 1st & 2nd gen immigrants prove legal right to be here?
    I've already said I reckon I could struggle to provide the paperwork that is/was required with the exception of my passport. Looking for your original thoughts?!?

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Treeza got it wrong, right now that's out of the way, how would you have 1st & 2nd gen immigrants prove legal right to be here?
    I've already said I reckon I could struggle to provide the paperwork that is/was required with the exception of my passport. Looking for your original thoughts?!?
    I wouldn't have destroyed official documents due to lack of space in an official government building for starters. It might have been a clue to who arrived and when.

    If only someone hadn't decided to put pressure on those in that office space eh. Treeezaaa

    Most folk in the stories, linked, have worked in the country for years, paid taxes, jeez, they even worked in the NHS. They must have been in the tax system.

    As one of the victims said, she only got someone behind the glass telling her to get more evidence, when those behind the glass knew, it was the government who destroyed that evidence.

    They were royally shafted by the Government led by Treeza, and it was through her actions as Home office minister that the **** hit the fan.

    Someone's head should roll for this, but as usual, they'll all file in behind as if nothing has happened.

    https://t.co/9jC5G1Hqv6
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 17-04-2018 at 07:30 PM.


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  18. #17
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Most folk in the stories, linked, have worked in the country for years, paid taxes, jeez, they even worked in the NHS. They must have been in the tax system.
    By all accounts that doesn't mean your legal to work here or meet the requirement to take advantage of our social care system.

    35 year old 2nd gen Caribbean immigrant, worked all his days but has never held a passport, can't prove he's British, so how does he?
    I genuinely don't know how I could prove it without my passport!!!

  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    By all accounts that doesn't mean your legal to work here or meet the requirement to take advantage of our social care system.

    35 year old 2nd gen Caribbean immigrant, worked all his days but has never held a passport, can't prove he's British, so how does he?
    I genuinely don't know how I could prove it without my passport!!!
    I don’t think it’s a question that they shouldn’t need to formalise their status or indeed that they should have taken some personal responsibility in this matter, it’s the way they have been treated when trying to work through that process.

    Anyone who has been in a country for multiple decades, living, working (in some cases for the state for many years) and paying taxes should be treated as if they were a citizen but need assistance in clarifying their status not as an illegal that should be shunted off because their paper work is not in order.

    So is it not possible to support the general requirement for people to have to prove their status but condemn the cack handed approach that has been taken on this segment of the population when doing so?

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    By all accounts that doesn't mean your legal to work here or meet the requirement to take advantage of our social care system.

    35 year old 2nd gen Caribbean immigrant, worked all his days but has never held a passport, can't prove he's British, so how does he?
    I genuinely don't know how I could prove it without my passport!!!
    They've been asked to provide documentary evidence for every single year they've been here. Imagine trying to find that as a two year old landing here over 50 years ago.

    The system has treated them abominably, but they were severely hampered by the actions of the home secretary Mrs May, and her team.

    Channel 4 news run a piece on it earlier.

    https://t.co/VEQa0prGnh


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  21. #20
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    By all accounts that doesn't mean your legal to work here or meet the requirement to take advantage of our social care system.

    35 year old 2nd gen Caribbean immigrant, worked all his days but has never held a passport, can't prove he's British, so how does he?
    I genuinely don't know how I could prove it without my passport!!!
    He'll hopefully have a birth certificate, which would show his parents. Now if only they could be cross referenced with something like landing cards, which would show those parents arriving in the UK.

    The government have cocked up big style here, and everyone affected should be recompensed fully.


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  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    They've been asked to provide documentary evidence for every single year they've been here. Imagine trying to find that as a two year old landing here over 50 years ago.
    I can't imagine it, said it before but without my passport how do I prove my citizenship, how would you?
    I see where the Home Office has resolved some of the cases they have issued "biometric cards" to the individuals concerned, I've never heard of such a thing but it does sound like a national ID card, something a lot of libertarians are against.
    Last edited by speedy_gonzales; 17-04-2018 at 09:29 PM.

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    I don’t think it’s a question that they shouldn’t need to formalise their status or indeed that they should have taken some personal responsibility in this matter, it’s the way they have been treated when trying to work through that process.

    Anyone who has been in a country for multiple decades, living, working (in some cases for the state for many years) and paying taxes should be treated as if they were a citizen but need assistance in clarifying their status not as an illegal that should be shunted off because their paper work is not in order.

    So is it not possible to support the general requirement for people to have to prove their status but condemn the cack handed approach that has been taken on this segment of the population when doing so?


    In the name of being open, honest and inclusive (I know, I know, it’s the tories), surely it would be far easier to take a position of something like:

    if you weren’t born here (therefore all born in Britain are covered for this), but have been here for X number of years (something sensible accounting for very young children arriving with parents), and/or there is proof that you’ve resided here for the majority of your life (such as school records, tax records, national insurance number and contributions, employer history, marriage certificates, children’s birth certificates, or any other sensible measure), we'll grant you citizenship (or whatever word/ status suits) which will see you be treated as any other British citizen would be, and entitled to the freedoms and benefits therein.


    At the end of the day, we are talking about people who have contributed to our society for most of if not all of their lives. We were happy to accept them when we needed a boost to the work force, and we shouldn’t be turning our backs on them now. They’ve put as much into our society as anyone else has in that time frame (often being treated as lesser beings for a large proportion of that time), they deserve the same as any other citizen would be given.

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    In the name of being open, honest and inclusive (I know, I know, it’s the tories), surely it would be far easier to take a position of something like:

    if you weren’t born here (therefore all born in Britain are covered for this), but have been here for X number of years (something sensible accounting for very young children arriving with parents), and/or there is proof that you’ve resided here for the majority of your life (such as school records, tax records, national insurance number and contributions, employer history, marriage certificates, children’s birth certificates, or any other sensible measure), we'll grant you citizenship (or whatever word/ status suits) which will see you be treated as any other British citizen would be, and entitled to the freedoms and benefits therein.


    At the end of the day, we are talking about people who have contributed to our society for most of if not all of their lives. We were happy to accept them when we needed a boost to the work force, and we shouldn’t be turning our backs on them now. They’ve put as much into our society as anyone else has in that time frame (often being treated as lesser beings for a large proportion of that time), they deserve the same as any other citizen would be given.
    That would be the sensible approach, but no doubt the government will come up with something much more complicated to satisfy the right wing elements of the party.

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  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    In the name of being open, honest and inclusive (I know, I know, it’s the tories), surely it would be far easier to take a position of something like:

    if you weren’t born here (therefore all born in Britain are covered for this), but have been here for X number of years (something sensible accounting for very young children arriving with parents), and/or there is proof that you’ve resided here for the majority of your life (such as school records, tax records, national insurance number and contributions, employer history, marriage certificates, children’s birth certificates, or any other sensible measure), we'll grant you citizenship (or whatever word/ status suits) which will see you be treated as any other British citizen would be, and entitled to the freedoms and benefits therein.


    At the end of the day, we are talking about people who have contributed to our society for most of if not all of their lives. We were happy to accept them when we needed a boost to the work force, and we shouldn’t be turning our backs on them now. They’ve put as much into our society as anyone else has in that time frame (often being treated as lesser beings for a large proportion of that time), they deserve the same as any other citizen would be given.
    Couldn't more.

  26. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Some more reading for you Speedy. Deliberately destroying documents. If that's what takes your fancy.

    The Home Office destroyed thousands of landing card slips recording Windrush immigrants’ arrival dates in the UK, despite staff warnings that the move would make it harder to check the records of older Caribbean-born residents experiencing residency difficulties.
    A former Home Office employee said the records, stored in the basement of a government tower block, were a vital resource for case workers when they were asked to find information about someone’s arrival date in the UK from the West Indies – usually when the individual was struggling to resolve immigration status problems.

    He said he noticed a change in approach to these cases after the announcement of the “hostile environment” policy by May, then home secretary. In 2009 and 2010, managers gave case workers and members of his team time to look into cases. “Generally speaking, most Home Office staff want to try to do the right thing and be fair, within the rules,” he said.
    But from 2013 onwards, he said, staff were “given no leeway to make a judgment call”. The changed atmosphere combined with staff cuts made it a more unpleasant place to work and many experienced staff took redundancy, he said. The people who remained were told: “These are the rules, stick to them.”
    He decided to leave at around this time. “I am so angry that people are being treated in a way which is just abhorrent.”

    https://t.co/M8z3dG5MBu
    May says the decision to shred the documents was taken under Labour:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    May says the decision to shred the documents was taken under Labour:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
    The Home Office has repeatedly shown itself to be unfit for purpose, irrespective of the government of the day. The fact that no-one, including the likes of May, has been able to sort it is where the politicians hold responsibility.

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    According to an ex-Home Office employee on the radio today, these documents (landing cards) wouldn't have proved citizenship anyway as the individual should have reapplied for residency at some point. This seems to contradict the 1971 & 1991 acts/legislation that permitted citizenship to those "Windrushers" that had settled here.
    They reckon there was 500000 concerned but the media is reporting less than 100 individuals thretened with deportation etc.
    Whilst it's bad enough it's affecting 60/70/80 year olds that contributed to British society, I can't get my head around the fact there's people 10 years younger than me with similar worries!

  29. #28
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    May says the decision to shred the documents was taken under Labour:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
    And the Home Office say it was taken when the Tories were in power.

    No matter who it was.... it's largely irrelevant in the bigger picture.

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  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    According to what I've seen on the news, the decision never reached political circles in any case, so whomever was actually "in charge" government wise is pretty much irrelevant.

    That said, when they made the decision to save space/money there technically was not going to be an impact.... Its later changes to legislation and the seemingly inept way any issues have been addressed that caused the issues.

    Speaking to one of my mates who's a prison officer down south, he has two ex colleagues caught up in the mess and technically could be deported "back home"

    Jeez....


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  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    May says the decision to shred the documents was taken under Labour:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43806710
    You've quoted the BBC. Is this a true story, or has she misled, again?


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