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  1. #271
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Such a radical transformation from the current DWP system will take several years to fully implement in Scotland. The hand over isn't instantaneous, it occurs in manageable stages.

    Anybody who thinks that it's just a case of "handing it over", doesn't understand the deep complexity of the economic structure.


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  3. #272
    johnbc70
    Left by mutual consent!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    Such a radical transformation from the current DWP system will take several years to fully implement in Scotland. The hand over isn't instantaneous, it occurs in manageable stages.

    Anybody who thinks that it's just a case of "handing it over", doesn't understand the deep complexity of the economic structure.
    But as pointed out the SNP said they could deliver independence in a 2 year time scale. 24th March 2016 was the day I think where we would be free of the English...oh I mean Westminster.

    So complete independence was achievable in 2 years? Do you think that was achievable or did they underestimate the deep complexity of it all with that prediction?

    Can't have it both ways, either it's all deeply complex, like you say, or it's not that complex and 2 years seemed about right.

  4. #273
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    But as pointed out the SNP said they could deliver independence in a 2 year time scale. 24th March 2016 was the day I think where we would be free of the English...oh I mean Westminster.

    So complete independence was achievable in 2 years? Do you think that was achievable or did they underestimate the deep complexity of it all with that prediction?
    You do realize that there have been both political and economic matters than have slowed the whole process down? Devolution isn't exactly at the top of the UK Governments agenda at the moment, kicking the process into the long grass.

  5. #274
    johnbc70
    Left by mutual consent!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    You do realize that there have been both political and economic matters than have slowed the whole process down? Devolution isn't exactly at the top of the UK Governments agenda at the moment, kicking the process into the long grass.
    It was the SNP who asked for the delay as they were not ready. I am sure UK government would have happily handed this power across if the SNP were ready.

    You never really said if you thought the 2 year timetable was realistic for delivering independence? If you believe that 2 years is not enough for a new welfare system how would 2 years have delivered that and everything else?

  6. #275
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    It was the SNP who asked for the delay as they were not ready. I am sure UK government would have happily handed this power across if the SNP were ready.

    You never really said if you thought the 2 year timetable was realistic for delivering independence? If you believe that 2 years is not enough for a new welfare system how would 2 years have delivered that and everything else?
    The UK Government wanted to hand their broken system over to the Scottish Government early. The Scottish Government quite rightfully called for the process to be delayed, as they knew brexit would slow down the reforms required to take the system on in a way that would be economically functional. It was the sensible route to take. So i'm not sure what you're getting at in this regard.

    2 years may well have been enough time if it wasn't for the collosal mess that the UK Government created to appease a few rebel backbenchers.

    However, this discussion with you is pointless as your stance is clearly "back the UK Government over Scotland no matter what".

  7. #276
    johnbc70
    Left by mutual consent!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    The UK Government wanted to hand their broken system over to the Scottish Government early. The Scottish Government quite rightfully called for the process to be delayed, as they knew brexit would slow down the reforms required to take the system on in a way that would be economically functional. It was the sensible route to take. So i'm not sure what you're getting at in this regard.

    2 years may well have been enough time if it wasn't for the collosal mess that the UK Government created to appease a few rebel backbenchers.

    However, this discussion with you is pointless as your stance is clearly "back the UK Government over Scotland no matter what".
    Having seen your post about Russia then yes let's just leave it.

  8. #277
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Having seen your post about Russia then yes let's just leave it.
    If you have evidence of Russias involvement, rather than just linking to articles that claim their involvement with zero evidence provided, then please feel free to do so.

  9. #278
    johnbc70
    Left by mutual consent!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    If you have evidence of Russias involvement, rather than just linking to articles that claim their involvement with zero evidence provided, then please feel free to do so.
    I am rarely lost for words, but this time....

    I would not even know where to begin, so I won't. All the best.

  10. #279
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I am rarely lost for words, but this time....

    I would not even know where to begin, so I won't. All the best.
    No?

    Ok then, no worries.

  11. #280
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    At lunchtime I saw the post on this thread doing a wee bit whataboutery....

    I thought to my self, classic deflection tactic... someone raises an issue about the Tory government on the "Tory thread" and someone immediately brings up another parties performance (+80% of the post is about the non Tory party).... thought then that the thread would be nicely hijacked and would no longer be about the Tories.... #

    back from work and you've all proved me correct
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  12. #281
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    At lunchtime I saw the post on this thread doing a wee bit whataboutery....

    I thought to my self, classic deflection tactic... someone raises an issue about the Tory government on the "Tory thread" and someone immediately brings up another parties performance (+80% of the post is about the non Tory party).... thought then that the thread would be nicely hijacked and would no longer be about the Tories.... #

    back from work and you've all proved me correct
    So you expect every post to be just about Tory lies?

    Does that mean the SNP nonsense thread can only be exclusively about SNP nonsense? Is this board not about debate and calling out hypocrisy and inconsistencies? That's on both sides as well.

    This place would be pretty boring if all we had was lists. Tory lie #1, #2 and SNP nonsense #1, #2 etc.

    Unless you don't mean that?

  13. #282
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    So you expect every post to be just about Tory lies?

    Does that mean the SNP nonsense thread can only be exclusively about SNP nonsense? Is this board not about debate and calling out hypocrisy and inconsistencies? That's on both sides as well.

    This place would be pretty boring if all we had was lists. Tory lie #1, #2 and SNP nonsense #1, #2 etc.

    Unless you don't mean that?
    If it was balanced (after a fashion) it would be seen as a proper response.

    But looking back over recent months posts on the differing threads it's starting look a bit like.

    Snp nonsense thread 90 odd % Snp fails getting talked about (as it should be)

    The Labour thread, Snp & tories get brought up but die away in the discussion back to Labour

    Tory thread, a tory fail gets highlighted and within 2 posts it's now an Snp thread.

    The Snp could have done better, they did announce at the time it was a massive job and needed done properly, both the UK and Scottish governments agreed that was the correct thing to do. If its wrong to delay it then they're both wrong, if its right then they're both right.

    PS. I don't mean you personally, although this particular time yer in the frame for the diversion tactic! :D

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  14. #283
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    If it was balanced (after a fashion) it would be seen as a proper response.

    But looking back over recent months posts on the differing threads it's starting look a bit like.

    Snp nonsense thread 90 odd % Snp fails getting talked about (as it should be)

    The Labour thread, Snp & tories get brought up but die away in the discussion back to Labour

    Tory thread, a tory fail gets highlighted and within 2 posts it's now an Snp thread.

    The Snp could have done better, they did announce at the time it was a massive job and needed done properly, both the UK and Scottish governments agreed that was the correct thing to do. If its wrong to delay it then they're both wrong, if its right then they're both right.

    PS. I don't mean you personally, although this particular time yer in the frame for the diversion tactic! :D

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
    I think if the diversion was off topic then that's a fair comment, for example 'Tories have ****** up the welfare system' and then the reply is 'Yea but what currency will we have' but on most occasions its related to the lie or nonsense that's been posted. In this case yes the Tories may well have ******* up, but the SNP could have taken control of it in 2017 and for whatever reason never did and that seems a reasonable response and on topic to the original post.

    As long as they stay on topic then I would expect it and encourage it on both sides. With the massive SNP slant we have on this board then we would end up with one list considerably bigger than the other.

  15. #284
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I think if the diversion was off topic then that's a fair comment, for example 'Tories have ****** up the welfare system' and then the reply is 'Yea but what currency will we have' but on most occasions its related to the lie or nonsense that's been posted. In this case yes the Tories may well have ******* up, but the SNP could have taken control of it in 2017 and for whatever reason never did and that seems a reasonable response and on topic to the original post.

    As long as they stay on topic then I would expect it and encourage it on both sides. With the massive SNP slant we have on this board then we would end up with one list considerably bigger than the other.
    I DO know where you're coming from and that post I tend to agree with, it's perfectly valid to bring up a counterpoint re a similar issue by another party. This time it seemed that we're now talking about the SNP (actually the Scottish government I guess cause there was cross party support) rather than the original point.

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  16. #285
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    I DO know where you're coming from and that post I tend to agree with, it's perfectly valid to bring up a counterpoint re a similar issue by another party. This time it seemed that we're now talking about the SNP (actually the Scottish government I guess cause there was cross party support) rather than the original point.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
    When you say cross party support do you mean all parties except the Tories who are there only to block everything the government wants.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  17. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    I DO know where you're coming from and that post I tend to agree with, it's perfectly valid to bring up a counterpoint re a similar issue by another party. This time it seemed that we're now talking about the SNP (actually the Scottish government I guess cause there was cross party support) rather than the original point.

    Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk
    I think what we were actually talking about was civil service ****-ups but that doesn't suit either the Tories are evil* or SNP are incompetent narratives.


    * they totally are btw.

  18. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I think if the diversion was off topic then that's a fair comment, for example 'Tories have ****** up the welfare system' and then the reply is 'Yea but what currency will we have' but on most occasions its related to the lie or nonsense that's been posted. In this case yes the Tories may well have ******* up, but the SNP could have taken control of it in 2017 and for whatever reason never did and that seems a reasonable response and on topic to the original post.

    As long as they stay on topic then I would expect it and encourage it on both sides. With the massive SNP slant we have on this board then we would end up with one list considerably bigger than the other.
    Really? I accept the majority of the hibs.net population are more Yes than No (and rightly so, obv ) but in terms of active HG posters it's much more balanced.

  19. #288
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I think what we were actually talking about was civil service ****-ups but that doesn't suit either the Tories are evil* or SNP are incompetent narratives.


    * they totally are btw.
    It was the DWP and I did point that out.

  20. #289
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Really? I accept the majority of the hibs.net population are more Yes than No (and rightly so, obv ) but in terms of active HG posters it's much more balanced.
    I would disagree, in some cases it almost feels like you post an anti SNP message and the dogs are let loose on you. Some posters can be balanced and accept other people have a different view or opinion, but there are a lot who just don't understand that someone might have a different viewpoint or opinion. They can't fathom that someone cannot think what they think or what they feel.

  21. #290
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I would disagree, in some cases it almost feels like you post an anti SNP message and the dogs are let loose on you.
    Perhaps it's because, whatever the subject under discussion, you always seem to weigh in with an anti-SNP message? Even like on this thread, where the topic is the Tories and their duplicity, you've succeeded in turning the discussion against the SNP.

    Maybe it's not us, it's you?

  22. #291
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Perhaps it's because, whatever the subject under discussion, you always seem to weigh in with an anti-SNP message? Even like on this thread, where the topic is the Tories and their duplicity, you've succeeded in turning the discussion against the SNP.

    Maybe it's not us, it's you?
    In a nutshell.

  23. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I would disagree, in some cases it almost feels like you post an anti SNP message and the dogs are let loose on you. Some posters can be balanced and accept other people have a different view or opinion, but there are a lot who just don't understand that someone might have a different viewpoint or opinion. They can't fathom that someone cannot think what they think or what they feel.
    What grunt said plus you repeatedly raise points you don't actually want to discuss. The obvious one being currency. Currency choice in iScotland has been debated seriously on here multiple times. There are only a few options and they are well known. You bring it up not to discuss it but because you know it's a Better Together Talking Point stick for beating nats. I think this forum is (mostly) better than that.

  24. #293
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    I think the DWP deserve the criticism and rightly so, they are a Tory government department. But at the same time the SNP have had the ability to take over the welfare payment system in Scotland but have failed to so do, they have even asked the Tories to keep administering it for them on their behalf. That also deserves some criticism as well does it not? If they had the chance to take it out the hands of their tories in 2017 then they should have. They could have implemented their fairness, dignity and respect much sooner and as you say that's a good thing.

    So both the Tories and SNP could have done better on this episode.
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    It was the DWP and I did point that out.
    So you did.


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