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  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calidad View Post
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    See, that’s where we differ. For me, I believe we already know that Berra and Hanley are not good enough. They’ve been tried and tested and have come up short on a number of occasions. Why persist?
    When did they come up short? We hadn’t lost in how many games under Strachan? I can’t remember us getting pumped in our last campaign either Slovakia apart and I’m not sure who was in defence that night?


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  3. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanWilson View Post
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    Why not really? If I've got to have a weekend not watching hibs cause the national team have a ridiculous friendly organised, I'd at least like them to show us what the point in punting GS was.
    It’s not really about you with all due respect bud. The national team is obligated to have a break of fixtures regardless.

  4. #333
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    Northern Ireland beating Korea.

  5. #334
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauzee16 View Post
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    Northern Ireland beating Korea.
    2-1 Norn win. Quite a result. The way Son Hyeung Min is playing I thought the Koreans might be an outside chance for a world cup quarter final place, but I see they're in a tough group, and the bookies have them at 750/1 rank no hopers.

  6. #335
    @hibs.net private member brog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauzee16 View Post
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    When did they come up short? We hadn’t lost in how many games under Strachan? I can’t remember us getting pumped in our last campaign either Slovakia apart and I’m not sure who was in defence that night?
    j

    Hanley & Martin were our central defence against Slovakia. IIRC at least 2 of the goals were headers/set pieces. Hanley & Berra were our central defenders against England when we conceded 3 headers. We had a very weak qualifying group, Engerlund apart, & still failed miserably.

  7. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by brog View Post
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    j

    Hanley & Martin were our central defence against Slovakia. IIRC at least 2 of the goals were headers/set pieces. Hanley & Berra were our central defenders against England when we conceded 3 headers. We had a very weak qualifying group, Engerlund apart, & still failed miserably.
    Our defence has been good despite our limited resources. It seems weird that people critisice the likes of Grant Hanley. He was thrown in at the deep end when he was just a kid. Why? Because everyone else, including more experienced defenders, were deemed to be more pish.

  8. #337
    @hibs.net private member weecounty hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brog View Post
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    j

    Hanley & Martin were our central defence against Slovakia. IIRC at least 2 of the goals were headers/set pieces. Hanley & Berra were our central defenders against England when we conceded 3 headers. We had a very weak qualifying group, Engerlund apart, & still failed miserably.
    Absolutely with you on that. The day that Hanley is no better than Hanlon and neither is Berra. Paul Hanlon, The sheep boy who played last night, Soutar even should all be given a chance in these games before Hanley and Berra. We know what Hanley and Berra do and that's not very good. Give the others a chance, you know what they might just surprise folk.
    Ater the 1994 world cup disaster, France binned all the old reliable, tried and trusted players as they had failed to qualify. Brought in fresh players, a lot of the U21 squad and hey presto they win the world cup in 98. Now I don't expect to win the world cup I think it demonstrates how failure needs to be changed and we just don't do that ever! Same old same old, one or two changes but we all know that when it comes to competitive games, Hanley, Berra, Mulgrew etc will all be trotted out again.
    Last night was pretty depressing. Again, take of McBurnie, a new face and some one to try and replace him with Matt Phillips. Cummings should have been tried. Again we know what Phillips does and again its not very much
    As someone who has been to two world cups and a Euro championship and used to be a member of the travel club, Scotland football team are slowly becoming an irrelevance to me. As I said, depressing

  9. #338
    @hibs.net private member ACLeith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weecounty hibby View Post
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    Absolutely with you on that. The day that Hanley is no better than Hanlon and neither is Berra. Paul Hanlon, The sheep boy who played last night, Soutar even should all be given a chance in these games before Hanley and Berra. We know what Hanley and Berra do and that's not very good. Give the others a chance, you know what they might just surprise folk.
    Ater the 1994 world cup disaster, France binned all the old reliable, tried and trusted players as they had failed to qualify. Brought in fresh players, a lot of the U21 squad and hey presto they win the world cup in 98. Now I don't expect to win the world cup I think it demonstrates how failure needs to be changed and we just don't do that ever! Same old same old, one or two changes but we all know that when it comes to competitive games, Hanley, Berra, Mulgrew etc will all be trotted out again.
    Last night was pretty depressing. Again, take of McBurnie, a new face and some one to try and replace him with Matt Phillips. Cummings should have been tried. Again we know what Phillips does and again its not very much
    As someone who has been to two world cups and a Euro championship and used to be a member of the travel club, Scotland football team are slowly becoming an irrelevance to me. As I said, depressing
    Amen to that! And the goalkeeping choice was the most pathetic of all

  10. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by brog View Post
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    TBH, really nothing has changed in the 50/60 years I've spent watching Scotland. Average OF players get caps before outstanding non OF players. Alex Cropley 2 caps, King Pat 16, Roy Aitken 57 & Tommy Boyd 72 sums it up for me. Then we have the Anglo perspective. For many years it was said that a Scottish duck became a swan as soon as they crossed the border. Again nothing has changed. 10 English based players started last night & with the exception of the outstanding Andy Robertson there was little to excite, & I support the inclusion of Ritchie & Paterson. McD & McT ambled about the midfield hitting square passes to each other & McB was like Simon Murray without as good a first touch! No shape, structure, cohesion or long term vision. It was ever thus! To paraphrase our marketing slogan of a few years back, The future is sh*te!
    Bang on the money mate that Pat Stanton - an international player all day and all night - retired with a meagre 16 caps beggars belief and is a pointer to a malaise which has never really gone away from Scottish Football.

    In the modern game, competent Scottish players with superior physical attributes tend to be favourites to land a prized contract in the English game as opposed to the flair players who often don't tick all the boxes physically. The lower leagues in England are not bereft of skill, but the marathon nature of their league competitions tend to mean that graft is valued far in excess of flair and this is evident in the prevalence of industrial hoofball in these leagues.

    I don't think this does the English international side any favours at all as it results in a dearth of flair players making the breakthrough - and the Scottish international side does not benefit either from an over-estimation of the significance of a player plying their trade in England. International football is played at a higher physical tempo yes - but flair and skill on the ball are also essential ingredients as the level gets higher. Players like Philips and Handley who both got a run out last night are a perfect example - fine physical specimens who graft for the jersey fair enough, but in terms of footballing ability, if we're relying on guys like that then we ain't going to cut the mustard at international level any time soon.

  11. #340
    @hibs.net private member brog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cilla Black View Post
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    Our defence has been good despite our limited resources. It seems weird that people critisice the likes of Grant Hanley. He was thrown in at the deep end when he was just a kid. Why? Because everyone else, including more experienced defenders, were deemed to be more pish.
    I wasn't actually criticising Hanley, just responding to a request for information. I would have Hanley in before the 30+ year olds, Mulgrew, Martin & Berra. The fact is though Hanley was deemed surplus to requirements by Newcastle & had been effectively binned by Scotland. ( It was at this time our defensive record improved ) Half a season with Norwich & he's back in the fold. Personally I think the left/right combination of Hanley the stopper with Hanlon, the better footballer could work but I'd be equally happy to see Souttar, Lindsay, Cooper or McKenna given a proper opportunity.

  12. #341
    @hibs.net private member ACLeith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brog View Post
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    TBH, really nothing has changed in the 50/60 years I've spent watching Scotland. Average OF players get caps before outstanding non OF players. Alex Cropley 2 caps, King Pat 16, Roy Aitken 57 & Tommy Boyd 72 sums it up for me. Then we have the Anglo perspective. For many years it was said that a Scottish duck became a swan as soon as they crossed the border. Again nothing has changed. 10 English based players started last night & with the exception of the outstanding Andy Robertson there was little to excite, & I support the inclusion of Ritchie & Paterson. McD & McT ambled about the midfield hitting square passes to each other & McB was like Simon Murray without as good a first touch! No shape, structure, cohesion or long term vision. It was ever thus! To paraphrase our marketing slogan of a few years back, The future is sh*te!
    And the worst of all - Gordon Smith 19 caps for arguably the greatest Scottish player ever

  13. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by dp00 View Post
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    These games should be played At Easter road Tynecastle , Pittodrie etc


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    Tiny Castle pitch is too wee.

  14. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by ACLeith View Post
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    And the worst of all - Gordon Smith 19 caps for arguably the greatest Scottish player ever
    But back then a player only got caps for home international games. Very few other international games but agree with your point mate.

  15. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by weecounty hibby View Post
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    Absolutely with you on that. The day that Hanley is no better than Hanlon and neither is Berra. Paul Hanlon, The sheep boy who played last night, Soutar even should all be given a chance in these games before Hanley and Berra. We know what Hanley and Berra do and that's not very good. Give the others a chance, you know what they might just surprise folk.
    Ater the 1994 world cup disaster, France binned all the old reliable, tried and trusted players as they had failed to qualify. Brought in fresh players, a lot of the U21 squad and hey presto they win the world cup in 98. Now I don't expect to win the world cup I think it demonstrates how failure needs to be changed and we just don't do that ever! Same old same old, one or two changes but we all know that when it comes to competitive games, Hanley, Berra, Mulgrew etc will all be trotted out again.
    Last night was pretty depressing. Again, take of McBurnie, a new face and some one to try and replace him with Matt Phillips. Cummings should have been tried. Again we know what Phillips does and again its not very much
    As someone who has been to two world cups and a Euro championship and used to be a member of the travel club, Scotland football team are slowly becoming an irrelevance to me. As I said, depressing
    I was very disappointed that Phillips trotted on last night in front of Jason. Phillips had almost a full game to impress against a very poor dutch team in November and looked so far off the pace of international football it was painful to watch at times. It could be of course that Cummings will get the start or more time against Hungary though, i am assuming the same for SJM. As a regular Scotland watcher i would be very unhappy if the two CM from last night rock up and get a regular game in front of him.

    I thought McKenna played pretty well on his debut, which may not be great news for Paul H, although Paul would be better than Mulgrew any day of the week as well though.

  16. #345
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    The fact is though, that our defence looked much improved in the second half of the campaign when Berra partnered Mulgrew at the back.

    I get that Hanley has had a decent half season for Norwich but I've never seen him with my own eyes and thought he was a football player, and I thought he was pish again last night.

    There are only so many opportunities that someone should be given when they continually fail to cut it at that level. Sometimes supposedly inferior players playing at a supposedly inferior level get the opportunity at International level and take it - see Berra (who I don't think is that great, but did well for Scotland over a few games), David Healy for Northern Ireland, Chris Gunter for Wales.

    I think McLeish is right to throw it open and see what a few players can do, and he was probably right to give Hanley an opportunity based on his club form in what has been a problem position for us for a while. But I would like to see a few other players get an opportunity and the jersey for the competitive games should go to whoever actually impresses whilst playing for Scotland, not based on what they are doing anywhere else.

  17. #346
    @hibs.net private member ACLeith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by southsider View Post
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    But back then a player only got caps for home international games. Very few other international games but agree with your point mate.
    Willie Waddell got 18 caps in about the same time period. My old man used to rant about why that was - brog echoed exactly what my dad said way back then!

  18. #347
    @hibs.net private member brog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    The fact is though, that our defence looked much improved in the second half of the campaign when Berra partnered Mulgrew at the back.

    I get that Hanley has had a decent half season for Norwich but I've never seen him with my own eyes and thought he was a football player, and I thought he was pish again last night.

    There are only so many opportunities that someone should be given when they continually fail to cut it at that level. Sometimes supposedly inferior players playing at a supposedly inferior level get the opportunity at International level and take it - see Berra (who I don't think is that great, but did well for Scotland over a few games), David Healy for Northern Ireland, Chris Gunter for Wales.

    I think McLeish is right to throw it open and see what a few players can do, and he was probably right to give Hanley an opportunity based on his club form in what has been a problem position for us for a while. But I would like to see a few other players get an opportunity and the jersey for the competitive games should go to whoever actually impresses whilst playing for Scotland, not based on what they are doing anywhere else.
    I agree the defence improved but we had already played our 2 toughest games by that time, Slovakia & England away. The defence was ludicrously unbalanced, the whole back 5 against England were left footed. I have never seen that before, even at club level.

  19. #348
    @hibs.net private member Jones28's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauzee16 View Post
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    Hanlon is close to 30 and not good enough. It’s the same with Hearts fans calling for that Souter boy to play when he reminds me on Hanlon about 7 years ago. Both good players but not internationalists.
    Hanlon has never been tested at that level and surely deserves a chance. He's only just 28 - in his prime - and captained his country at a younger level.

    I feel his came has come on in since Lennon appointment and he should be in the squad and given an opportunity in a friendly.

  20. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by Sauzee16 View Post
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    Hanlon is close to 30 and not good enough. It’s the same with Hearts fans calling for that Souter boy to play when he reminds me on Hanlon about 7 years ago. Both good players but not internationalists.
    Utter nonsense.

  21. #350
    @hibs.net private member Billy Whizz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    Hanlon has never been tested at that level and surely deserves a chance. He's only just 28 - in his prime - and captained his country at a younger level.

    I feel his came has come on in since Lennon appointment and he should be in the squad and given an opportunity in a friendly.
    Heard Mcleish on the radio, saying we had a lot of left footed centre backs, but not right sided ones!
    Think if Paul was right footed, probably be in the squad

  22. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by southsider View Post
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    But back then a player only got caps for home international games. Very few other international games but agree with your point mate.
    Yes it’s more accurate to say international appearances rather than caps for players from that time.
    Regarding the present team we are at a time when players can appear for our international team without being able to instantly control the ball or mark an opposing player in the penalty area.This inability to do the basics seems endemic among Scottish players when they are away from their clubs.

  23. #352
    Testimonial Due Hamish's Avatar
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    With the withdrawl of McTominay, surely SJM must be in with a great shout to start on Tuesday.

  24. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by underscore View Post
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    Utter nonsense.
    It seems like numerous managers agree with my "utter nonsense" tbh,

  25. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hamish View Post
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    With the withdrawl of McTominay, surely SJM must be in with a great shout to start on Tuesday.
    He should be starting even if McTominay didnt go home.

  26. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sauzee16 View Post
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    Hanlon is close to 30 and not good enough. It’s the same with Hearts fans calling for that Souter boy to play when he reminds me on Hanlon about 7 years ago. Both good players but not internationalists.
    Agreed!

  27. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    He should be starting even if McTominay didnt go home.
    Exactly.

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