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  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    Where is this overwhelming weight of evidence?
    Ok, firstly the murder weapon. Invented by, and known to be posessed by the russian govt. Identity verified by both the uk chemical weapons institute at porton down, and the international body. It was also made clear it was a very high quality version of the chemical.

    Secondly, the reaction of Russia. If innocent, surely you would throw open your facilities and expertise to help to try and solve the crime? Instead, they have obstructed, and refused to accept the verdict of the international body.

    Thirdly, and linked to the above, is the campaign of disinformation and obfuscation from the russian govt and the russian media (one and the same, of course) - they have taken contradictory positions, and offered ridiculous statements to the foriegn media, while giving thinly-veiled admissions and glaoting to their domestic audience.

    Fourth, motive - he was a national traitor to Russia, who by lving in, and no doubt helping the Uk and western agencies, was an active security threat, not to mention a very embarrasing reminder of the superiority of the western way of life, and an advertisement to all other russian agents of just what they too could have, if they defected. He had given up, as i understand it, dozens and dozens of russian agents in Europe, neutering their intelligence capabilities for years.

    Fifth, on the principle that past actions are the best predictor of future behaviour, russia has form for this kind of assasination, an assasination that is carried out in such a way as to be brutal, have deniability (ie not be caught in the act) but at the same time to leave the intended audience in no dount who had ordered it. Litvinenko (in the uk, no less), the poisoning of the defector on london bridge in the 70s, anf of course the poisoning of the ukranian opposition leader in the 2000s

    Sixth - the entire western world, upon hearing the evidence and being party to the intelligence, have agreed it was russia. As have (i think) the leader of our own opppsition upon receiving an intelligence briefing via the privy council.

    Seventh - that you have one govt that has ruthlessly persecuted and crushed any effective opposition, and any free press, led by a former KGB agent, who is now effectively a dictator, and who has increasingly expanded his foreign policy to be assertive and aggressive, and whose client state in syria, with their explicit support, is also using chemical weapons.

    Eight - the UK govt is unstablr and unpopular, it is beset with problems to deal with, has tonface scrutiny from an active oppostion, not to mention a sceptical public and a very activitist investigative media. And also, the political part of the govt cannot just order the civil service around to do whatever it wants, the civil service is independently minded (to a degree) and will actively work against a govt that is acting in an irrssponsbile manner.

    Nine - the impossibility of conspiracy - ambulance services, soctors, police, fire brigade, civil service, local authorities, military, scientists, the intelligence agencies, 25 odd countries around the world, would all habe to be 'in' on the conspiracy - simply not feasible.

    Ten - the complete absence of motive - why would the uk govt pick a fight with russia on this, and in the process damage the likelihood of future russian defectors, and the reputation of the uk security services? The uk already has bad relations with russia, it needs no pretext to make them worse, and it deepens tensions with a more powerful enemy that the Uk coyldnt take on.

    Eleven - the social media campaign that has followed it, is exactly the sort of thing that russia has developed considerable expertise in, and has deployed recently- a long standing tactic (but not method, obviously) of using the wests freedoms against it by stoking up what Stalin called his 'useful idiots' in the west to undermine their own govt, therefore doing russias bidding for them.

    I admit none of that is conclusive, but there can be no conclusive evidence, thats not how these things work, certainly not in public. But as far as i am aware, there is not a single credible piece of evidence supporting the theory that somdbody else did it. That seems pretty overwhelming to me.

    Im not discounting the possibility, and if there was evidence i would reconsider my view, but i haven't seen it. I am not naive, i dont think the UK is above dodgy actions, and i dont doubt we have active operations in russia designed to undermine them. But no uk govt woupd ever undertake a chemical weapons attack of this sort on its own soil, its ludicrous and the downsides far exceed the potential benefits.

    Now, i pass it over to you to provide the evidence for the counter-narrative?
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 26-04-2018 at 10:48 AM.


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  3. #422
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Apols foe the long post, but this article by the Guardian's Jonathan Freedland is worth posting - it seems particuarly appropriate to both this thread and internet discussions more generally.


    The great divide of our times is not left v right, but true v false
    Jonathan Freedland
    Jonathan Freedland
    The denigration of Robert Mueller and the White Helmets shows the extent to which provable facts are now under siege


    There was a time when, even if we disagreed about the remedy, we did at least agree that the patient was sick. We might argue about the meaning of this or that event, but all sides usually accepted that the event in question had at least happened. No longer. A new and unsettling dimension has entered our collective, and global, conversation.


    In the US James Comey, the former FBI director sacked by Donald Trump, released his memoirs and did a round of TV interviews. The FBI has not always enjoyed or deserved public trust – under its founder, the bigoted and brutal J Edgar Hoover, minorities and trade unionists had good reason to fear it – but in recent decades it came to be seen as one of the trusted arbiters of American life, a non-partisan referee whose word would be accepted. That would be truer still of the figure at the helm, the nation’s top law enforcement officer.


    Now, of course it’s natural that Comey’s book would not be hailed as a definitive, objective account of recent, highly contested events. It was not sworn testimony, but an autobiography with all the self-flattery and exculpation associated with that genre. But what was striking was the casual dismissal even of the facts in the book. Trump and the Republican party instantly trashed the ex-director – himself a Republican – launching a website: lyincomey.com. You can argue about Comey’s judgment and his self-righteousness – which make parts of the book read like reflections of The Simpsons’ Ned Flanders – but his opponents go further, waving aside even that which is verifiably true.


    The more egregious example is also the more serious. At a concert in Barcelona, the former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the Syria Civil Defence, or White Helmets – the volunteers who pull survivors from the rubble of bomb attacks, and are widely credited with saving thousands of civilian lives – of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”.

    That claim, which has been repeatedly debunked, was instantly applauded and spread by the same crowd of pro-Russia voices on the far left and far right who have served so dutifully as Assad’s online cheerleaders. To them, Waters was a hero for daring to speak an unpopular truth. For everyone else, a once admired musician had joined the ranks of conspiracist cranks and apologists for a murderous dictator.

    The remark by Waters fitted a story the Assad denialists have been telling for a while: that the chemical attack in Douma was fake, staged by the White Helmets and their western friends. Russian state TV even aired footage that, it claimed, showed a film set where such atrocities are cooked up. (The pictures were, in fact, taken from the set of a Syrian feature film.)

    former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters
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    The former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the White Helmets of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”. Photograph: Pacific Press / Barcroft Images
    Remember, these voices are not simply saying western air strikes were the wrong response to the killings in Douma. They are saying there were no killings in Douma. Or there were, but they didn’t involve chemical weapons. Or they did, but rebel groups were responsible. Or the whole thing was staged by Britain. The line changes with dizzying frequency.


    The point is, whether it’s Comey or Syria, we are now in an era when the argument is no longer over our response to events, but the very existence of those events. It was the same story after the mass school shooting at Parkland, Florida, in February. A loud chorus of rightists was not content merely to denounce proposed gun control measures: they claimed the massacre had not happened at all, and that all those grieving parents and teenagers were “crisis actors”.

    These are symptoms of a post-truth disease that’s come to be known as “tribal epistemology”, in which the truth or falsity of a statement depends on whether the person making it is deemed one of us or one of them. According to the writer David Roberts, “information is evaluated based not on conformity to common standards of evidence or correspondence to a common understanding of the world, but on whether it supports the tribe’s values and goals and is vouchsafed by tribal leaders. ‘Good for our side’ and ‘true’ begin to blur into one.”

    Of course, we all suffer from confirmation bias, and all of us listen more to our friends than to our foes – but this goes further. Recall the Trump spokesperson Scottie Nell Hughes, who declared: “There’s no such thing, unfortunately, any more as facts.” For many Americans, Hughes explained, Trump’s tweets, regardless of the evidence, “are truth” simply because they come from him.


    It fits that social media is the weapon of choice. Its algorithms are proven to favour virality over veracity, spreading false stories faster and wider than true ones. A mysterious pro-Assad tweeter, with no other traceable existence online, has nearly as many followers as the BBC’s Middle East editor. Meanwhile, the top story on Google News the morning after the US presidential election hailed Trump as the winner of the popular vote – even though he had lost it by nearly 3m votes. The tribe tells itself what it wants to hear.

    The desire to stand with your fellow Republicans or Assad apologists is so great you’re ready to throw out not only your opponents’ arguments but their evidence too. And because trust in all the previously respected referees – from the media to human rights organisations to the FBI – has collapsed, you refuse to believe anything and anyone that contradicts you.

    The danger this poses is clear. Comey’s moment will pass, but eventually his predecessor at the FBI, special counsel Robert Mueller, will deliver his report into the Trump campaign’s alleged collusion with Russia. Already Trump’s Fox News outriders are trashing Mueller – another Republican-appointed straight arrow whose honesty has never been credibly questioned – branding him biased, corrupt, even “the head of a crime family”. That will make it easier to ignore his findings, however damning. If Richard Nixon were in office now, even Watergate would not be Watergate: his own tribe would simply dismiss the hard, factual evidence against him.

    If Nixon were in office now, Watergate would not be Watergate: his tribe would simply dismiss the hard evidence
    As for Syria, Waters and the rest may seem like fringe voices, but such thinking eventually leaks into the mainstream. On yesterday’s Question Time, Emily Thornberry echoed the Russian claim that chemical weapons inspectors were being kept out of Douma by UN red tape and health and safety rules – when in fact it is Assad and Russia keeping them out: long enough, presumably, to ensure that by the time they’re granted access the crucial evidence will have been cleared away.

    It makes for a chilling landscape, a world where atrocities are committed twice over – once when they are done, and again when they are denied. Not decades later, but even as the dead are still being buried. The great division of our time may not, after all, be between left and right or open and closed, but something more fundamental still: between what is true and what is false.

    • Jonathan Freedland is a Guardian columnist
    Superb.

  4. #423
    This is OJ Simpson all over again.

  5. #424
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    This is OJ Simpson all over again.
    Wrong thread?

  6. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Wrong thread?
    No, really.

    The evidence all points to OJ/Russia. Only OJ/Russia have a motive. The constituency of African-Americans/Lefties profoundly dislikes/distrusts the US police/UK gov* to the point where they are willing it not to be true and happy to believe any old conspiracy theory. The outcome, ie. who's guilty?, becomes nothing to do with the truth and everything about who you "root for".


    * sometimes with very good reason, obv.
    Last edited by JeMeSouviens; 27-04-2018 at 10:10 AM.

  7. #426
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    No, really.

    The evidence all points to OJ/Russia. Only OJ/Russia have a motive. The constituency of African-Americans/Lefties profoundly dislikes/distrusts the US police/UK gov* to the point where they are willing it not to be true and happy to believe any old conspiracy theory. The outcome, ie. who's guilty?, becomes nothing to do with the truth and everything about who you "root for".


    * sometimes with very good reason, obv.
    If the glove is too small for Vladimir does that mean Donald did it?

  8. #427
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    If the glove is too small for Vladimir does that mean Donald did it?
    There's no way it'd fit those YUGE HANDS!

  9. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    No, really.

    The evidence all points to OJ/Russia. Only OJ/Russia have a motive. The constituency of African-Americans/Lefties profoundly dislikes/distrusts the US police/UK gov* to the point where they are willing it not to be true and happy to believe any old conspiracy theory. The outcome, ie. who's guilty?, becomes nothing to do with the truth and everything about who you "root for".


    * sometimes with very good reason, obv.
    Its a good analogy.

    People who dont believe the 'mainstream' view simply do not want to believe it.


  10. #430
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    Quelle suprise Russians flatly denying MH17 missile findings today...

  11. #431
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Quelle suprise Russians flatly denying MH17 missile findings today...
    Also known as the $häggy defence,,,,"It wasn't me!".

  12. #432
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Copied from the BBC re latest MH17 revelations;
    "Russia had previously blamed a Ukrainian military pilot, Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn, who had flown a series of missions against the Russian-backed separatists.

    Capt Voloshyn apparently killed himself in March."

    Seems to happen a lot to Russian citizens these days!

  13. #433
    @hibs.net private member Jim44's Avatar
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    On the Beeb News this morning.

    Ukraine's Prime Minister Volodymyr Groysman has accused Russia of being behind the killing in Kiev of the Russian journalist Arkady Babchenko.
    "I am confident that the Russian totalitarian machine did not forgive him his honesty and principled stance," the prime minister posted on Facebook.
    A Kremlin critic, Babchenko was gunned down outside his apartment on Tuesday.
    Russia has called for an investigation but said "bloody crimes" had become routine for the "Kiev regime".
    Relations between Russia and Ukraine remain tense following Russia's annexation of Crimea in 2014 and the seizure of parts of eastern Ukraine by pro-Russian forces.
    What is known about the killing?
    Babchenko, 41, was found bleeding at the entrance to his block of flats by his wife and died in an ambulance.
    He was reportedly shot several times in the back.
    Ukrainian lawmaker Anton Herashchenko said the journalist had gone out to buy some bread, and that the killer was waiting for him.
    Kiev police chief Andriy Kryshchenko told local media they suspected Babchenko was killed because of his "professional activities".

  14. #434
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    And this afternoon, it was all a pack of lies:

    Russian journalist Arkady Babchenko, widely reported to have been assassinated in Kiev on Tuesday, is alive and well.
    Mr Babchenko, a high-profile critic of the Kremlin, appeared at a press conference on Ukrainian TV on Wednesday.
    The head of Ukraine's security services, Vasyl Hrytsak, told reporters the "murder" had been staged

  15. #435
    First Team Breakthrough Curried's Avatar
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    They say things are done for the majority
    Don't believe half of what you see and none of what you hear
    It's like what my painter friend Donald said to me
    "Stick a fork in their ass and turn them over, they're done"

  16. #436
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    And this afternoon, it was all a pack of lies:

    Russian journalist Arkady Babchenko, widely reported to have been assassinated in Kiev on Tuesday, is alive and well.
    Mr Babchenko, a high-profile critic of the Kremlin, appeared at a press conference on Ukrainian TV on Wednesday.
    The head of Ukraine's security services, Vasyl Hrytsak, told reporters the "murder" had been staged
    An "interesting development" - the Ukrainian authorities claim they have apprehended the "hit man" - a Ukrainian citizen - as part of the operation of staging Arkadij Babtschenko's death ...
    .... Die spinnen, die Briten ....

  17. #437
    @hibs.net private member silverhibee's Avatar
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    Seems to have happened again, 2 people fighting for their life after being exposed to novichok nerve agent.

  18. #438
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    These latest were substance abusers who went through the bins looking for stuff. Seems as though they got more than they bargained for.

  19. #439
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
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    the poor woman has died


    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44760875

    Police have launched a murder inquiry after a woman exposed to nerve agent Novichok in Wiltshire died.

    Dawn Sturgess, 44, died in hospital on Sunday evening after falling critically ill on 30 June.

  20. #440
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    Copied from the BBC re latest MH17 revelations;
    "Russia had previously blamed a Ukrainian military pilot, Capt Vladyslav Voloshyn, who had flown a series of missions against the Russian-backed separatists.

    Capt Voloshyn apparently killed himself in March."

    Seems to happen a lot to Russian citizens these days!


    only those that oppose the terrorist dictator Putin
    Last edited by cabbageandribs1875; 09-07-2018 at 04:06 AM.

  21. #441
    First Team Breakthrough
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    Quote Originally Posted by heretoday View Post
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    These latest were substance abusers who went through the bins looking for stuff. Seems as though they got more than they bargained for.
    That is merely conjecture, neither has made a statement, and one never will.

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