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  1. #391
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.
    My personal experience (by no means objective) is that there are elements of the left who have mistaken nostalgic allegiance to the old Soviet Union and fail to realise that Russia after losing their national identity after the collapse of communism (similar to Germany post 1918) has undergone a complete 180 degree political upheaval and is now ruled by a fascist dictator.


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  3. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    My personal experience (by no means objective) is that there are elements of the left who have mistaken nostalgic allegiance to the old Soviet Union and fail to realise that Russia after losing their national identity after the collapse of communism (similar to Germany post 1918) has undergone a complete 180 degree political upheaval and is now ruled by a fascist dictator.
    Similarly subjective, but this would be my take also. Its one of the main reasons that corbyn is such an idiot for not recognising how bad he plays in this situation, as nobody is in any doubt that he spent the cold war rooting for our enemy, and it seems old habits die hard.

    Ironically enough, tonight's episode of homeland is called Useful Idiot, which apparently was a term used by Stalin for the USSR's stooges in the west. Art imitating life...?

  4. #393
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    When dealing with a pack of suspected liars (i.e. all the various governments) best bet is to not believe any of them.

  5. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    When dealing with a pack of suspected liars (i.e. all the various governments) best bet is to not believe any of them.
    I worry that this is a total cop out - and completely serves the aims of those peddling the lies in the first place - disinformation is designed to do exactly that, its not about getting you to believe them, its about poisoning the well to the point that people dont believe anything and so the truth becomes another contested facebook post or 'establishment ruse'. At that point, democracy is pretty ****ed and we end up with people like Trump and Brexit.

  6. #395
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
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    I know our government is a Tory one but I’m amazed by the amount of people who believe Putin over the UK government.
    He’s a lying ******* but then so is the Foreign Secretary!

  7. #396
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I worry that this is a total cop out - and completely serves the aims of those peddling the lies in the first place - disinformation is designed to do exactly that, its not about getting you to believe them, its about poisoning the well to the point that people dont believe anything and so the truth becomes another contested facebook post or 'establishment ruse'. At that point, democracy is pretty ****ed and we end up with people like Trump and Brexit.
    Thank you for endorsing my point, SH.
    However, I feel we are not 'at that point', we are beyond it.

  8. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Thank you for endorsing my point, SH.
    However, I feel we are not 'at that point', we are beyond it.
    Yeah, maybe. But that requires people to recognise that all printed words on a screen are NOT the same. And i absolutely do not believe for a second that our govt is either willig or able to systematically lie to us the way that many other govts do, and people who dismiss our govt as being the same as putins are just flat out wrong. Our system of government IS superior to those of many other countries.

    You only need to look at this, the bbc bias and a few of the other threads on here to see it in action. Countering an official govt position on an issue like this with random blogs written by random people is not good enough, and people getting exasperated (understandably) and just taking their leave of an issue by dismissing all sides as the same is not acceptable - all sides are not the same.

    Sorry for getting annoyed, but i really feel this is becoming a major, defining issue of our age - liberal democracy has been weaponised by those who are thratened by it, and our own people forget too easily just how lucky they are to live in the west at this time - but we take it for granted, it is not guarenteed, it has beem hard fought and hard won - we are only two generations on from total war to defeat these type of countries on our very doorstep FFS, and only one generation from winning the cold war. Yet people are (willfully or otherwise) helping to undermine it for the sake of looking clever on Facebook, or confirming just how much they hate and dont trust the tories. I find it genuinely concerning, and i fear we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction.

    If syria should remind us of anything, its that we do not live in a postwar world, and that we could still end up in a situation that our parents / grandparents generation made enormous sacrifices to stop from happening ever again.

    Apologies for the rant!
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 16-04-2018 at 07:11 PM.

  9. #398
    @hibs.net private member GreenLake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah, maybe. But that requires people to recognise that all printed words on a screen are NOT the same. And i absolutely do not believe for a second that our govt is either willig or able to systematically lie to us the way that many other govts do, and people who dismiss our govt as being the same as putins are just flat out wrong. Our system of government IS superior to those of many other countries.

    You only need to look at this, the bbc bias and a few of the other threads on here to see it in action. Countering an official govt position on an issue like this with random blogs written by random people is not good enough, and people getting exasperated (understandably) and just taking their leave of an issue by dismissing all sides as the same is not acceptable - all sides are not the same.

    Sorry for getting annoyed, but i really feel this is becoming a major, defining issue of our age - liberal democracy has been weaponised by those who are thratened by it, and our own people forget too easily just how lucky they are to live in the west at this time - but we take it for granted, it is not guarenteed, it has beem hard fought and hard won - we are only two generations on from total war to defeat these type of countries on our very doorstep FFS, and only one generation from winning the cold war. Yet people are (willfully or otherwise) helping to undermine it for the sake of looking clever on Facebook, or confirming just how much they hate and dont trust the tories. I find it genuinely concerning, and i fear we are sowing the seeds of our own destruction.

    If syria should remind us of anything, its that we do not live in a postwar world, and that we could still end up in a situation that our parents / grandparents generation made enormous sacrifices to stop from happening ever again.

    Apologies for the rant!
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/indepe...ussian/5636311

    Can't find anything from sites which are not considered 'conspiracy theorist' but this has been thrown around last day or two. It didn't make sense to me that they would be so dumb as to use something with a Russian origin.

  10. #399
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLake View Post
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    https://www.globalresearch.ca/indepe...ussian/5636311

    Can't find anything from sites which are not considered 'conspiracy theorist' but this has been thrown around last day or two. It didn't make sense to me that they would be so dumb as to use something with a Russian origin.
    This is a link https://twitter.com/spiezlab?lang=de to the cited "Swiss lab" and its response to the Russian FM'S assertion! Seems to me that it clearly backs up the PD findings, despite what Putin's RT propaganda is trying to spin to the gullible ... why you posted a link to Putin's RT without quoting what Spiez actually says baffles me ...

    Spiez Laboratory@SpiezLab 14. Apr.Mehr

    "Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock. PD - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW. The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings. #Skipal"



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  11. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLake View Post
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    https://www.globalresearch.ca/indepe...ussian/5636311

    Can't find anything from sites which are not considered 'conspiracy theorist' but this has been thrown around last day or two. It didn't make sense to me that they would be so dumb as to use something with a Russian origin.
    Ive read this a few times, and it had never made sense to me. There are a number of reasons they would...

    Firstly, they could be sending a message to other would-be defectors, showing that the west cant protect them or their family.

    Secondly, i have read that novichoks were developed to be very hard to trace, and so if it had gone differently, it would have been very hard to identify the cause of death. For example, the numerous other russian dissidents who have died if random heart attacks.

    Or..
    Thirdly, why wouldnt the russians use one of their own weapons? They didnt try and hide the 'little gree men' in Ukraine, or the 'mercenaries' fighting in syria did they? It suuts Putin's narrative at home to have the west blame him, while at the same time they spin their BS on Russia Today.

  12. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ive read this a few times, and it had never made sense to me. There are a number of reasons they would...

    Firstly, they could be sending a message to other would-be defectors, showing that the west cant protect them or their family.

    Secondly, i have read that novichoks were developed to be very hard to trace, and so if it had gone differently, it would have been very hard to identify the cause of death. For example, the numerous other russian dissidents who have died if random heart attacks.

    Or..
    Thirdly, why wouldnt the russians use one of their own weapons? They didnt try and hide the 'little gree men' in Ukraine, or the 'mercenaries' fighting in syria did they? It suuts Putin's narrative at home to have the west blame him, while at the same time they spin their BS on Russia Today.
    You really do talk the biggest crock of nonsense on here.

    Russiophobia is alive and strong in you.

  13. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkintHibby View Post
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    You really do talk the biggest crock of nonsense on here.

    Russiophobia is alive and strong in you.
    Ok🖒

  14. #403
    @hibs.net private member GreenLake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    This is a link https://twitter.com/spiezlab?lang=de to the cited "Swiss lab" and its response to the Russian FM'S assertion! Seems to me that it clearly backs up the PD findings, despite what Putin's RT propaganda is trying to spin to the gullible ... why you posted a link to Putin's RT without quoting what Spiez actually says baffles me ...

    Spiez Laboratory@SpiezLab 14. Apr.Mehr

    "Only OPCW can comment this assertion. But we can repeat what we stated 10 days ago: We have no doubt that Porton Down has identified Novichock. PD - like Spiez - is a designated lab of the OPCW. The standards in verification are so rigid that one can trust the findings. #Skipal"



    The Spiez lab just quoted a Swiss Government Official and then stated that they don't doubt the findings of PD. They didn't say what their own lab's findings were because it's confidential. The entire world media has been printing leaked information since the incident yet now they are keeping things secret? They could blow this out of the water with that data should it exist but maybe they are waiting for some other things to unfold.

    My link was not to RT although they did quote the Russian FM who probably used RT as his mouthpiece to originate this allegation. Did he completely make it up about BZ toxin or was it a part of the report circulated to OPCW members (which includes Russia) but not made public?

  15. #404
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLake View Post
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    The Spiez lab just quoted a Swiss Government Official and then stated that they don't doubt the findings of PD. They didn't say what their own lab's findings were because it's confidential. The entire world media has been printing leaked information since the incident yet now they are keeping things secret? They could blow this out of the water with that data should it exist but maybe they are waiting for some other things to unfold.

    My link was not to RT although they did quote the Russian FM who probably used RT as his mouthpiece to originate this allegation. Did he completely make it up about BZ toxin or was it a part of the report circulated to OPCW members (which includes Russia) but not made public?

    Think the quote I referenced was actually from the Spreiz lab (?) your link wasn't to RT (my mistake!!) but it may as well have been, as it seemed to take its "news" references solely from RT and the FM - Anyway, as RT is not a news organisation, but Putin's propaganda instrument such links are essentially worthless ...

    The Swiss Government has also stated that it accepts the findings of the Spreiz lab regarding the Nov. toxin

    The OPCW has explicitly stated that FM Lawrow's assertions are erroneous, so yes he probably did just make it up - nothing new there then



    OPENING STATEMENT BY THE DIRECTOR-GENERAL TO THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL AT ITS FIFTY-NINTH MEETING (OPCW)
    Extract
    "As it was clearly shown in the detailed and technical presentation, we should not have an iota of doubt on the reliability of the system of the OPCW Designated Laboratories. The Labs were able to confirm the identity of the chemical by applying existing, well-established procedures. There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the findings are duly reflected in the report."




    .... Die spinnen, die Briten ....

  16. #405
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    Apols foe the long post, but this article by the Guardian's Jonathan Freedland is worth posting - it seems particuarly appropriate to both this thread and internet discussions more generally.


    The great divide of our times is not left v right, but true v false
    Jonathan Freedland
    Jonathan Freedland
    The denigration of Robert Mueller and the White Helmets shows the extent to which provable facts are now under siege


    There was a time when, even if we disagreed about the remedy, we did at least agree that the patient was sick. We might argue about the meaning of this or that event, but all sides usually accepted that the event in question had at least happened. No longer. A new and unsettling dimension has entered our collective, and global, conversation.


    In the US James Comey, the former FBI director sacked by Donald Trump, released his memoirs and did a round of TV interviews. The FBI has not always enjoyed or deserved public trust – under its founder, the bigoted and brutal J Edgar Hoover, minorities and trade unionists had good reason to fear it – but in recent decades it came to be seen as one of the trusted arbiters of American life, a non-partisan referee whose word would be accepted. That would be truer still of the figure at the helm, the nation’s top law enforcement officer.


    Now, of course it’s natural that Comey’s book would not be hailed as a definitive, objective account of recent, highly contested events. It was not sworn testimony, but an autobiography with all the self-flattery and exculpation associated with that genre. But what was striking was the casual dismissal even of the facts in the book. Trump and the Republican party instantly trashed the ex-director – himself a Republican – launching a website: lyincomey.com. You can argue about Comey’s judgment and his self-righteousness – which make parts of the book read like reflections of The Simpsons’ Ned Flanders – but his opponents go further, waving aside even that which is verifiably true.


    The more egregious example is also the more serious. At a concert in Barcelona, the former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the Syria Civil Defence, or White Helmets – the volunteers who pull survivors from the rubble of bomb attacks, and are widely credited with saving thousands of civilian lives – of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”.

    That claim, which has been repeatedly debunked, was instantly applauded and spread by the same crowd of pro-Russia voices on the far left and far right who have served so dutifully as Assad’s online cheerleaders. To them, Waters was a hero for daring to speak an unpopular truth. For everyone else, a once admired musician had joined the ranks of conspiracist cranks and apologists for a murderous dictator.

    The remark by Waters fitted a story the Assad denialists have been telling for a while: that the chemical attack in Douma was fake, staged by the White Helmets and their western friends. Russian state TV even aired footage that, it claimed, showed a film set where such atrocities are cooked up. (The pictures were, in fact, taken from the set of a Syrian feature film.)

    former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters
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    The former Pink Floyd star Roger Waters accused the White Helmets of being “a fake organisation that exists only to create propaganda for the jihadists and terrorists”. Photograph: Pacific Press / Barcroft Images
    Remember, these voices are not simply saying western air strikes were the wrong response to the killings in Douma. They are saying there were no killings in Douma. Or there were, but they didn’t involve chemical weapons. Or they did, but rebel groups were responsible. Or the whole thing was staged by Britain. The line changes with dizzying frequency.


    The point is, whether it’s Comey or Syria, we are now in an era when the argument is no longer over our response to events, but the very existence of those events. It was the same story after the mass school shooting at Parkland, Florida, in February. A loud chorus of rightists was not content merely to denounce proposed gun control measures: they claimed the massacre had not happened at all, and that all those grieving parents and teenagers were “crisis actors”.

    These are symptoms of a post-truth disease that’s come to be known as “tribal epistemology”, in which the truth or falsity of a statement depends on whether the person making it is deemed one of us or one of them. According to the writer David Roberts, “information is evaluated based not on conformity to common standards of evidence or correspondence to a common understanding of the world, but on whether it supports the tribe’s values and goals and is vouchsafed by tribal leaders. ‘Good for our side’ and ‘true’ begin to blur into one.”

    Of course, we all suffer from confirmation bias, and all of us listen more to our friends than to our foes – but this goes further. Recall the Trump spokesperson Scottie Nell Hughes, who declared: “There’s no such thing, unfortunately, any more as facts.” For many Americans, Hughes explained, Trump’s tweets, regardless of the evidence, “are truth” simply because they come from him.


    It fits that social media is the weapon of choice. Its algorithms are proven to favour virality over veracity, spreading false stories faster and wider than true ones. A mysterious pro-Assad tweeter, with no other traceable existence online, has nearly as many followers as the BBC’s Middle East editor. Meanwhile, the top story on Google News the morning after the US presidential election hailed Trump as the winner of the popular vote – even though he had lost it by nearly 3m votes. The tribe tells itself what it wants to hear.

    The desire to stand with your fellow Republicans or Assad apologists is so great you’re ready to throw out not only your opponents’ arguments but their evidence too. And because trust in all the previously respected referees – from the media to human rights organisations to the FBI – has collapsed, you refuse to believe anything and anyone that contradicts you.

    The danger this poses is clear. Comey’s moment will pass, but eventually his predecessor at the FBI, special counsel Robert Mueller, will deliver his report into the Trump campaign’s alleged collusion with Russia. Already Trump’s Fox News outriders are trashing Mueller – another Republican-appointed straight arrow whose honesty has never been credibly questioned – branding him biased, corrupt, even “the head of a crime family”. That will make it easier to ignore his findings, however damning. If Richard Nixon were in office now, even Watergate would not be Watergate: his own tribe would simply dismiss the hard, factual evidence against him.

    If Nixon were in office now, Watergate would not be Watergate: his tribe would simply dismiss the hard evidence
    As for Syria, Waters and the rest may seem like fringe voices, but such thinking eventually leaks into the mainstream. On yesterday’s Question Time, Emily Thornberry echoed the Russian claim that chemical weapons inspectors were being kept out of Douma by UN red tape and health and safety rules – when in fact it is Assad and Russia keeping them out: long enough, presumably, to ensure that by the time they’re granted access the crucial evidence will have been cleared away.

    It makes for a chilling landscape, a world where atrocities are committed twice over – once when they are done, and again when they are denied. Not decades later, but even as the dead are still being buried. The great division of our time may not, after all, be between left and right or open and closed, but something more fundamental still: between what is true and what is false.

    • Jonathan Freedland is a Guardian columnist

  17. #406
    I'm not going to quote the post above because of it's length but it's a decent read.

    I tried to make a similar point, less thoroughly or eloquently admittedly, a while back and was picked up on for it but I stand by it. They way we perceive and react to events is influenced by our own world view. This isn't just with major events either. I would still argue that if you shuffled about a few of the personalities and accusations involved in recent events then many peoples view of the available facts and circumstancial evidence would be completely flipped; I don't exclude myself from that either.
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  18. #407
    @hibs.net private member GreenLake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    Think the quote I referenced was actually from the Spreiz lab (?) your link wasn't to RT (my mistake!!) but it may as well have been, as it seemed to take its "news" references solely from RT and the FM - Anyway, as RT is not a news organisation, but Putin's propaganda instrument such links are essentially worthless ...

    The Swiss Government has also stated that it accepts the findings of the Spreiz lab regarding the Nov. toxin

    The OPCW has explicitly stated that FM Lawrow's assertions are erroneous, so yes he probably did just make it up - nothing new there then



    OPENING STATEMENT BY THE DIRECTOR-GENERAL TO THE EXECUTIVE COUNCIL AT ITS FIFTY-NINTH MEETING (OPCW)
    Extract
    "As it was clearly shown in the detailed and technical presentation, we should not have an iota of doubt on the reliability of the system of the OPCW Designated Laboratories. The Labs were able to confirm the identity of the chemical by applying existing, well-established procedures. There was no other chemical that was identified by the Labs. The precursor of BZ that is referred to in the public statements, commonly known as 3Q, was contained in the control sample prepared by the OPCW Lab in accordance with the existing quality control procedures. Otherwise it has nothing to do with the samples collected by the OPCW Team in Salisbury. This chemical was reported back to the OPCW by the two designated labs and the findings are duly reflected in the report."




    RT was definitely the main source of that article.

    I still think whole story is full of inconsistencies and it reads like an unconvincing B movie script. People being asked to launder their clothing to decontaminate them from a deadly nerve agent. Why not dispose of them? Yet they are removing toxic park benches and demolishing the Skripal's home. The victims survived a deadly nerve agent and yet we have not heard what they have to say about the attack. I am baffled and extremely curious about what happened as a chemist and also an ordinary person. I also want to know who exactly is to blame and I sure hope these agents don't fall into the hands of terrorists.

    I get that there are groups with political agendas jumping on this but a lot of people just want the facts and data made available. They seem to be trickling out while the diplomatic war is waged in full public view.

    I'm still wondering why that MI6 agent was found dead locked up inside his bag.

  19. #408
    @hibs.net private member GreenLake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I'm not going to quote the post above because of it's length but it's a decent read.

    I tried to make a similar point, less thoroughly or eloquently admittedly, a while back and was picked up on for it but I stand by it. They way we perceive and react to events is influenced by our own world view. This isn't just with major events either. I would still argue that if you shuffled about a few of the personalities and accusations involved in recent events then many peoples view of the available facts and circumstancial evidence would be completely flipped; I don't exclude myself from that either.
    I can understand being vulnerable to my world view as an ordinary person but would hope journalists are able to travel outside of their own world view when writing articles. I'm not sure many do these days.

  20. #409
    Russia defends majority Russian people in East Ukraine and Crimea.

    It's a no brainer really.

    Russia invited to defend Syria by the legitimate legal Syrian government.

    It's a no brainer really.


    Anything else is just western propaganda and the dafties on here fall for it.

  21. #410
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkintHibby View Post
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    Russia defends majority Russian people in East Ukraine and Crimea.

    It's a no brainer really.

    Russia invited to defend Syria by the legitimate legal Syrian government.

    It's a no brainer really.


    Anything else is just western propaganda and the dafties on here fall for it.
    Im hoping you're simply fishing, or do you truly believe ethnic cleansing is acceptable?


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  22. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkintHibby View Post
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    Russia defends majority Russian people in East Ukraine and Crimea.

    It's a no brainer really.

    Russia invited to defend Syria by the legitimate legal Syrian government.

    It's a no brainer really.


    Anything else is just western propaganda and the dafties on here fall for it.
    Couldn't agree more.

  23. #412
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    Im hoping you're simply fishing, or do you truly believe ethnic cleansing is acceptable?


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    He also believes that the government in Syria is legitimate and legal. There’s no point in engaging with someone who’s views are so entrenched that they can’t see what’s staring them in the face. In these situations I would take what anyone involved in this conflict says with a pinch of salt, but to paint the Syrian government and the Russians as some sort of bastions of virtue is utterly laughable.

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  24. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    He also believes that the government in Syria is legitimate and legal. There’s no point in engaging with someone who’s views are so entrenched that they can’t see what’s staring them in the face. In these situations I would take what anyone involved in this conflict says with a pinch of salt, but to paint the Syrian government and the Russians as some sort of bastions of virtue is utterly laughable.
    Anything less than endorsement of the Government line regarding the alleged chemical attack in Douma, and the poisoning of the Skirpals in Salsibury is automatically seen as support for Assad and the Russians. With our track record in the Middle East you can hardly blame folk for being sceptical.

  25. #414
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenLake View Post
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    I can understand being vulnerable to my world view as an ordinary person but would hope journalists are able to travel outside of their own world view when writing articles. I'm not sure many do these days.
    Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn in the Independent have excellent pieces in the Independent.

  26. #415
    @hibs.net private member Eaststand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    Robert Fisk and Patrick Cockburn in the Independent have excellent pieces in the Independent.
    What newspaper is it in mate ?


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  27. #416
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    Anything less than endorsement of the Government line regarding the alleged chemical attack in Douma, and the poisoning of the Skirpals in Salsibury is automatically seen as support for Assad and the Russians. With our track record in the Middle East you can hardly blame folk for being sceptical.
    I’m sceptical as well, but I don’t go around believing everything is a conspiracy or that one side is always right, and the other is wrong. Assad is a tyrant and Putin is a very dangerous man. To paint these two as whiter than white is wrong. On the other side we have a lunatic and a woman who will do anything to stay in power. Trust and honesty is not something I associate with anyone in this conflict.
    Meanwhile the Syrian people are being killed in a proxy war in order to stop the main protagonists from killing each other directly.

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  28. #417
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I’m sceptical as well, but I don’t go around believing everything is a conspiracy or that one side is always right, and the other is wrong. Assad is a tyrant and Putin is a very dangerous man. To paint these two as whiter than white is wrong. On the other side we have a lunatic and a woman who will do anything to stay in power. Trust and honesty is not something I associate with anyone in this conflict.
    Meanwhile the Syrian people are being killed in a proxy war in order to stop the main protagonists from killing each other directly.
    Just to be clear... I 100% agree with your last paragraph. On the other hand my own comment was really targeted at Skints 1st paragraph (crimea/East Ukraine).... Ignoring stuff that's in the public domain that's contrary to your argument without some form of reply is always going to make you look like an "apologist"

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