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  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    Agree that this has happened, but what if you do the listening, and do the engaging, and at the end conclude that the people you've listened to and engaged with are stupid and racists? What then?
    There’s always going to be racists and stupid people.

    I’ve often found an almost nasty self congratulatory intellectual and moral superiority amongst some on the left. ‘Oh it’s just so much harder to be left wing, you really have to think about it and educate yourself above your instincts’ or the chant in unison when presented with an argument they don’t like ‘you just don’t understand’.

    I think the left has to consider that over the last decade, and arguably considerably longer, areas in the UK, and other western countries, that have seen traditional industries disappear, have seen communities and community spirit decimated, have seen almost a million people people forced to work on zero hours contracts and so on have turned to the likes of Johnson and Farage rather than to them. It must be cause for concern that Eton FPs and a former city worker appear to be able to speak to the ‘working class’ and appear more accessible to them than many on the left do.

    I’ve told the story before but many years ago I was involved in the Socialist Society at Aberdeen Uni. I expected a real community spirit and a work ethic. What I encountered were a group of people who formed committees and working groups that reported back about nothing, sat about theorising on how they could put the world to rights, occassionally attended a protest about Palestine or tuition fees and dismissed criticism with a tirade of theoretical bollocks they had read. The final straw was when I approached a few people about helping a local community charity who worked with ex child offenders and needed people to take them on day trips and so on. They refused because ‘helping charities legitimised a system in which charities have to exist’. Meanwhile the buffoons in the Conservative Society who these people loved to tear strips off were out working with a local group that offered a drop in service for parents of disabled children, many were involved in the Scout Association and they regularly supported the work of other local charities through fundraising.

    The lefties were so wrapped up in their own moral superiority and big plans that they were wilfully ignoring people in need right in front of their eyes. The wider failure of the left in the UK for decades now is an expanded version of a local problem I encountered imo.
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  3. #32
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    There’s always going to be racists and stupid people.

    I’ve often found an almost nasty self congratulatory intellectual and moral superiority amongst some on the left. ‘Oh it’s just so much harder to be left wing, you really have to think about it and educate yourself above your instincts’ or the chant in unison when presented with an argument they don’t like ‘you just don’t understand’.

    I think the left has to consider that over the last decade, and arguably considerably longer, areas in the UK, and other western countries, that have seen traditional industries disappear, have seen communities and community spirit decimated, have seen almost a million people people forced to work on zero hours contracts and so on have turned to the likes of Johnson and Farage rather than to them. It must be cause for concern that Eton FPs and a former city worker appear to be able to speak to the ‘working class’ and appear more accessible to them than many on the left do.

    I’ve told the story before but many years ago I was involved in the Socialist Society at Aberdeen Uni. I expected a real community spirit and a work ethic. What I encountered were a group of people who formed committees and working groups that reported back about nothing, sat about theorising on how they could put the world to rights, occassionally attended a protest about Palestine or tuition fees and dismissed criticism with a tirade of theoretical bollocks they had read. The final straw was when I approached a few people about helping a local community charity who worked with ex child offenders and needed people to take them on day trips and so on. They refused because ‘helping charities legitimised a system in which charities have to exist’. Meanwhile the buffoons in the Conservative Society who these people loved to tear strips off were out working with a local group that offered a drop in service for parents of disabled children, many were involved in the Scout Association and they regularly supported the work of other local charities through fundraising.

    The lefties were so wrapped up in their own moral superiority and big plans that they were wilfully ignoring people in need right in front of their eyes. The wider failure of the left in the UK for decades now is an expanded version of a local problem I encountered imo.
    I think your critique is a critique of pomposity in general. There are pompous people everywhere, on the right and the left, I doubt Aberdeen Uni Socialists are immune from it . I'd suggest 'the left' are doing better now than at any time in my memory, and UKIP and Farage are electorally speaking an irrelevance, which doesn't really support your argument. Personally, as long as someone is genuinely willing to roll up their sleeves and do something to contribute to society, whether they call themselves left or right, or whatever, they share the same values as me. A lot of these traditional binary labels don't serve any purpose anymore.

    On the other hand, there are some areas where politically, I wouldn't compromise, like free health care for everyone. I'm not willing to spend my time being polite and trying to 'understand' and 'listen to another point of view' to people who want to sell off the NHS to US hedge funds, like, let's see, most of the Tory cabinet, who are doing so for their own financial interests. I will argue against these people and I won't shy away from telling them they're morally wrong, whether they like it or not, regardless of education, social class or whatever.

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    I think your critique is a critique of pomposity in general. There are pompous people everywhere, on the right and the left, I doubt Aberdeen Uni Socialists are immune from it . I'd suggest 'the left' are doing better now than at any time in my memory, and UKIP and Farage are electorally speaking an irrelevance, which doesn't really support your argument. Personally, as long as someone is genuinely willing to roll up their sleeves and do something to contribute to society, whether they call themselves left or right, or whatever, they share the same values as me. A lot of these traditional binary labels don't serve any purpose anymore.

    On the other hand, there are some areas where politically, I wouldn't compromise, like free health care for everyone. I'm not willing to spend my time being polite and trying to 'understand' and 'listen to another point of view' to people who want to sell off the NHS to US hedge funds, like, let's see, most of the Tory cabinet, who are doing so for their own financial interests. I will argue against these people and I won't shy away from telling them they're morally wrong, whether they like it or not, regardless of education, social class or whatever.
    How are the Tory cabinet going to have personal financial gain from selling the NHS to a US Hedge fund? Maybe they will but interested to find out why you think that, let's say Claire Perry MP for starters, how will she financially gain?

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    How are the Tory cabinet going to have personal financial gain from selling the NHS to a US Hedge fund? Maybe they will but interested to find out why you think that, let's say Claire Perry MP for starters, how will she financially gain?
    There's 71 tory MPs including a number of cabinet ministers who have links, either in the form of owning shares or being on the boards of, private health care providers.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    There's 71 tory MPs including a number of cabinet ministers who have links, either in the form of owning shares or being on the boards of, private health care providers.
    Surely we can trust them not to let that influence their Parliamentary decisions.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    There's 71 tory MPs including a number of cabinet ministers who have links, either in the form of owning shares or being on the boards of, private health care providers.
    So is it most of the cabinet as you said or not? How many of the cabinet are on the boards of a private health company?

    Everyone that has a pension will likely own shares in some kind of private health care company, direct or indirectly. Should that be banned?

  8. #37
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    So is it most of the cabinet as you said or not? How many of the cabinet are on the boards of a private health company?

    Everyone that has a pension will likely own shares in some kind of private health care company, direct or indirectly. Should that be banned?
    Google if it you're interested. There's a lot of conflict of interest in relation to the NHS reforms. You and I may have a pension who's valuation is influenced by fluctuations in the share price of virgin health care. That's very different from being a cabinet minister sitting on the board of that company. And yes, it may be less than 50%, not 'most of the cabinet', apologies. I didn't realise this was semantic Sunday. And it's only an example to illustrate a wider point I was making about PBs post.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Google if it you're interested. You and I may have a pension who's valuation is influenced by fluctuations in the share price of virgin health care. That's very different from being a cabinet minister sitting on the board of that company. And yes, it may be less than 50%, not 'most of the cabinet', apologies. I didn't realise this was semantic Sunday. And it's only an example to illustrate a wider point I was making about PBs post.
    Sorry but claims that 'most of the cabinet' would gain from selling the NHS to an US trust fund was simply not true, just pointing out that sometimes claims are made on here which on investigation are not true.

    I had a look but could not find any current serving cabinet ministers on the boards of private health care companies, so that would be 0%. I could be wrong though.

    I guess I am being awkward to make a point!

  10. #39
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I was at church earlier this evening. The Gospel story was of Jesus casting those selling animals for sacrifice and money changers from the Temple. The story isn’t particularly important but the Priests homily was, as it usually is, interesting. He pointed out the story was showing Jesus not as meek and mild as is often the portrayal but as an angry and passionate human being. He went on to say that anger can be a positive emotion particularly when aimed at injustice. He concluded by saying Lent was a time to think about what makes us angry and how we can challenge it but that we must have an open ear and listen to what others, even those we are angry with, say back otherwise we come across as pious and self righteous.

    Now I know there could be a million pages written about the hypocrisy of a Catholic Priest warning against against preaching and not listening to counter argument but in a political sense I think there is a valid message there. I often find the left adopts an attitude of knowing what is best for those they claim to seek to help rather than listening to what help they actually want and need. Trump wasn’t carried into power solely on the shoulders of rich elites, it was rust belt USA that was a huge part of his core vote. Brexit may have been the baby of the likes of Gove and Johnson but it’s popularity was greatest in some of our most deprived areas. The reaction of many on the left to these events, and others, was not to engage with these people and try to understand their reasons, concerns and desires but rather to scoff at them as stupid, share videos of ‘idiots’ making erroneous statements, throw accusations of racism about like confetti and preach to the fools about how much worse their life would become because of their own stupidity.

    I think it’s something we all have in us. We become so blinded by our own views and beliefs, so consumed by what we think is best we often forget to listen to what other people are saying. Recent history has shown that engaging with and motivating what should be your core vote is the road to success, it’s hopefully a lesson that those angry about injustice across the world learn and they begin to do less preaching and more listening.

    A superb post. Which church BTW?

  11. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    A superb post. Which church BTW?
    St Johns at Portobello.
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  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    I think your critique is a critique of pomposity in general. There are pompous people everywhere, on the right and the left, I doubt Aberdeen Uni Socialists are immune from it . I'd suggest 'the left' are doing better now than at any time in my memory, and UKIP and Farage are electorally speaking an irrelevance, which doesn't really support your argument. Personally, as long as someone is genuinely willing to roll up their sleeves and do something to contribute to society, whether they call themselves left or right, or whatever, they share the same values as me. A lot of these traditional binary labels don't serve any purpose anymore.

    On the other hand, there are some areas where politically, I wouldn't compromise, like free health care for everyone. I'm not willing to spend my time being polite and trying to 'understand' and 'listen to another point of view' to people who want to sell off the NHS to US hedge funds, like, let's see, most of the Tory cabinet, who are doing so for their own financial interests. I will argue against these people and I won't shy away from telling them they're morally wrong, whether they like it or not, regardless of education, social class or whatever.
    Where?

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    St Johns at Portobello.
    We're at St Catherine's, Gracemount. When the church/priest is bad its awful, when its good its outstanding.

  14. #43
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Where?
    Here we go

  15. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    We're at St Catherine's, Gracemount. When the church/priest is bad its awful, when its good its outstanding.
    I only started going again recently. It's a bit strange because I still consider myself as agnostic, from a position of atheism I suppose that's an 'improvement', and a lot of my own liberalism is at odds with the Church. I like the peacefulness and focus of Mass though and the fact you can't just grab your phone or change the channel or any other distraction. There's usually something said that is challenging or worth listening to and a lot of people I have spoken with seem happy and motivated by their faith to do good.

    We had Father Willy Slavin with us for a couple of weeks lately. He's an interesting character who was and is worth listening to.

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    There’s always going to be racists and stupid people.

    I’ve often found an almost nasty self congratulatory intellectual and moral superiority amongst some on the left. ‘Oh it’s just so much harder to be left wing, you really have to think about it and educate yourself above your instincts’ or the chant in unison when presented with an argument they don’t like ‘you just don’t understand’.

    I think the left has to consider that over the last decade, and arguably considerably longer, areas in the UK, and other western countries, that have seen traditional industries disappear, have seen communities and community spirit decimated, have seen almost a million people people forced to work on zero hours contracts and so on have turned to the likes of Johnson and Farage rather than to them. It must be cause for concern that Eton FPs and a former city worker appear to be able to speak to the ‘working class’ and appear more accessible to them than many on the left do.

    I’ve told the story before but many years ago I was involved in the Socialist Society at Aberdeen Uni. I expected a real community spirit and a work ethic. What I encountered were a group of people who formed committees and working groups that reported back about nothing, sat about theorising on how they could put the world to rights, occassionally attended a protest about Palestine or tuition fees and dismissed criticism with a tirade of theoretical bollocks they had read. The final straw was when I approached a few people about helping a local community charity who worked with ex child offenders and needed people to take them on day trips and so on. They refused because ‘helping charities legitimised a system in which charities have to exist’. Meanwhile the buffoons in the Conservative Society who these people loved to tear strips off were out working with a local group that offered a drop in service for parents of disabled children, many were involved in the Scout Association and they regularly supported the work of other local charities through fundraising.

    The lefties were so wrapped up in their own moral superiority and big plans that they were wilfully ignoring people in need right in front of their eyes. The wider failure of the left in the UK for decades now is an expanded version of a local problem I encountered imo.

    If you didn't like that kind of inward looking left politics you really wouldn't how Corbyn's brand is unfolding within Labour.

    To be fair left and right are equally guilty of having lost grip completely on the nature of the problems we now face nationally and globally and what do do in response to those challenges. In their impotence in the face of these forces they are retreating into history with the left moving further left and the right moving further right. It is bizarre that in facing new challenges they expect old solutions to work rather than considering that perhaps party politics rooted in centuries old movements and institutions may not be capable of shaping the answers we need.

  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Here we go
    It's a fair question don't you think? Where in the world is the left in power and shaping the future?

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    If you didn't like that kind of inward looking left politics you really wouldn't how Corbyn's brand is unfolding within Labour.

    To be fair left and right are equally guilty of having lost grip completely on the nature of the problems we now face nationally and globally and what do do in response to those challenges. In their impotence in the face of these forces they are retreating into history with the left moving further left and the right moving further right. It is bizarre that in facing new challenges they expect old solutions to work rather than considering that perhaps party politics rooted in centuries old movements and institutions may not be capable of shaping the answers we need.
    I still think if Nick Clegg hadn't sold his soul, the Liberal Party would be soaring right now (in the UK as a whole).
    There must be many disenchanted voters from right and left out there ready for the picking.
    Alas, he destroyed his Party for at least generation.
    Last edited by snooky; 04-03-2018 at 12:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I only started going again recently. It's a bit strange because I still consider myself as agnostic, from a position of atheism I suppose that's an 'improvement', and a lot of my own liberalism is at odds with the Church. I like the peacefulness and focus of Mass though and the fact you can't just grab your phone or change the channel or any other distraction. There's usually something said that is challenging or worth listening to and a lot of people I have spoken with seem happy and motivated by their faith to do good.

    We had Father Willy Slavin with us for a couple of weeks lately. He's an interesting character who was and is worth listening to.
    Our priest is really thought provoking week in, week out. The guy that usually sets things alight though is an Irish priest who visits from time to time when holidaying from his parish in Guatemala. His reflections on extreme poverty, death squads, corruption, healthcare and political/corporate terror in that country are very, very sobering.

  20. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    I still think if Nick Clegg hadn't sold his soul, the Liberal Party would be soaring right now (in the UK as a whole).
    There must be many disenchanted voters from right and left out there ready for the picking.
    Alas, he killed his Party for at least generation.
    He could probably have sold half his soul by going into coalition but not dropping the Lib Dem pledge on tuition fees and, as you suggest, be in a pretty healthy position right now. Can't stand the Lib-Dems myself but you can see how they could have benefitted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    It's a fair question don't you think? Where in the world is the left in power and shaping the future?
    Im exasperated because I can see this thread, which started off into fairly interesting territory about belief, into the usual dull linear 'he's an erse, no he isnae' stuff which you evidently enjoy and which makes this place increasingly boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Im exasperated because I can see this thread, which started off into fairly interesting territory about belief, into the usual dull linear 'he's an erse, no he isnae' stuff which you evidently enjoy and which makes this place increasingly boring.

    That seems a bit offensive and uninformative. You were the one who brought the contention about the left into the thread, not me.

    I simply asked where you see it because it isn't evident to me that the left are shaping events in power anywhere in the world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    That seems a bit offensive and uninformative. You were the one who brought the contention about the left into the thread, not me.

    I simply asked where you see it because it isn't evident to me that the left are shaping events in power anywhere in the world.
    Don't be disingenuous, i think the world and his wife knows you were taking it into a 'bash Corbyn' direction, you don't need to have been on here for 18,000 posts to know that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Firstly I will admit that I’ve had a few drinks. I’m a person that constantly thinks about what is happening around me and what’s happening in the wider world. I get annoyed by the capitalist system, but I wish I was rich. I get annoyed seeing corrupt leaders in other countries betraying the people they are supposed to represent, but I don’t want our country to intervene. I hate the fact that the EPL is so rich and we live off the scraps, but I still watch it.
    The only thing that gives me hope is learning about space exploration. In order for humanity to survive we need to leave our home planet.
    I know I’m rambling a lot of pish here, but I just wish that people could put ridiculous preconceptions behind them and concentrate on what’s important for all of us.
    This is one of my favourite ever posts on hibs.net.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Green Goblin View Post
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    This is one of my favourite ever posts on hibs.net.
    I dont know what the good Lord Bunberry was apologising about, to be honest, it was a fantastic OP. Its about as far away from a drunken rant as i can imagine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    He could probably have sold half his soul by going into coalition but not dropping the Lib Dem pledge on tuition fees and, as you suggest, be in a pretty healthy position right now. Can't stand the Lib-Dems myself but you can see how they could have benefitted.
    Me 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Don't be disingenuous, i think the world and his wife knows you were taking it into a 'bash Corbyn' direction, you don't need to have been on here for 18,000 posts to know that.
    But it's fine for you to claim almost all the cabinet will profit from selling the NHS, which we then established was false, or at least you failed to back up your claims.

  28. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    But it's fine for you to claim almost all the cabinet will profit from selling the NHS, which we then established was false, or at least you failed to back up your claims.
    Mate, its off topic. And it was a tiny part of a broader point. I could spend all my Sunday researching the numbers of Tories being baw deep in NHS privatisation to prove a point, but im not going to. If you want to chalk that up as You 1 Me 0 thats up to you. I just wish you and others would engage with the discussion instead of semantics. What sort of world do YOU want to live in?

  29. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    But it's fine for you to claim almost all the cabinet will profit from selling the NHS, which we then established was false, or at least you failed to back up your claims.
    Not the same as "most of" which you earlier quoted. Standards!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Don't be disingenuous, i think the world and his wife knows you were taking it into a 'bash Corbyn' direction, you don't need to have been on here for 18,000 posts to know that.

    I'm not being disingenuous, I'm asking a perfectly reasonable question. If you don't have an answer it just say so rather than this pretty dull playing the man rather than the ball stuff. There's no need to pretend to mind read what I'm thinking, particularly when the (wrong) assumption you make is avoiding the broader discussion you claim to seek.

    I repeat that you were the one who brought the contention about the left into the thread, not me. I had actually assumed that with that you were addressing the global nature of the OP's points rather than Jeremy Corbyn's world. And events in Italy seem to be reinforcing my point, whatever the answer is to the questions raised in the OP it doesn't currently, sadly, seem to be offered by the left.

  31. #60
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    Much preferred this thread when it was about spaceships.

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