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  1. #31
    Coaching Staff jgl07's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Ingram View Post
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    It's a great article and points out what i've been saying for years.

    One of the biggest causes of the CL Money causing the domestic dominance is the introduction of the 'Champions Route' Qualifying in 2009.

    This has made it alot easier for these clubs to get in to the CL Group Stages as they don't play anyone from the big leagues, enabling inferior quality sides to Qualify.

    It's pretty much the same sides every year competing in that side of the draw. APOEL, BATE Borisov, Celtic, Dinamo Zagreb, Ludogorets, Malmo, Maribor etc are pretty much guaranteed to be playing each other in the 3rd Qualifying round every season.

    As a result of that, it's a lot easier for them to get the cash. They aren't going to play a Dortmund, Napoli, Sevilla, Monaco, Arsenal, Liverpool, Atletico Madrid etc.

    Now i'd rather more countries got the opportunity to compete in the group stages but t since the Champions Route was introduced 8 years ago, only 4 of the 40 qualifiers have ever made it to the last 16 as opposed to 22 out of 40 from the non-champions route.

    So though the benefit is we get more countries in, the stats prove they aren't good enough to compete. The CL money alone is not enough to build a side to get out of the group.

    The negatives far outway it.
    Dull domestic leagues as the CL money enables clubs to dominate.
    Uncompetitive CL group games
    Champions League money isnít that significant for EPL teams since the new domestic TV contracts were signed. That issue was proved by Leicester City two seasons back.

    It certainly distorted many domestic Leagues in the past and continues to do so for many outside of the big five. In Scotland the CL cash has certainly given Celtic a major advantage over the rest. Not that they particularly need it.

    But you canít blame UEFA for the current state of the SPFL Premiership. Itís been like that for a hundred years or more with two clubs dominating only seriously threatened by Hibs in the late 1940s and early 1950s, Hearts/Dundee in the early 1960s and Aberdeen/Dundee United in the 1980s. The only difference now is that it is dominated by one club since the demise of Rangers.

    This is the situation that was engineered by the old G14 clubs and threatened UEFA and their own national Leagues by threatening a breakaway if their demands were not met. What has happened became inevitable after that. The one pleasing thing is that several of those clubs (Milan, Inter, Arsenal, etc.) seem to have been left behind and now are crying foul.


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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    Best way to impact change is stop watching the Champions League. If fans of non CL clubs done this on mass then there would be a dramatic fall in the TV audience and therefore the sponsorship and TV money would plummet. But sadly itís not going to happen as we are heading for a European super league with big clubs hovering up millions
    Personally I can't stand the so called 'Champions League' and I haven't watched it for years. Last game I saw was the first Athletico v Real Madrid final and I only went to a pub where it was on to accompany an Athletico supporting friend from Madrid.

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member Winston Ingram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    Best way to impact change is stop watching the Champions League. If fans of non CL clubs done this on mass then there would be a dramatic fall in the TV audience and therefore the sponsorship and TV money would plummet. But sadly itís not going to happen as we are heading for a European super league with big clubs hovering up millions
    I doubt it. The viewing figures across the world are huge. The majority of the viewing figures comes from outside Europe.

  5. #34
    @hibs.net private member Winston Ingram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgl07 View Post
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    Champions League money isn’t that significant for EPL teams since the new domestic TV contracts were signed. That issue was proved by Leicester City two seasons back.

    It certainly distorted many domestic Leagues in the past and continues to do so for many outside of the big five. In Scotland the CL cash has certainly given Celtic a major advantage over the rest. Not that they particularly need it.

    But you can’t blame UEFA for the current state of the SPFL Premiership. It’s been like that for a hundred years or more with two clubs dominating only seriously threatened by Hibs in the late 1940s and early 1950s, Hearts/Dundee in the early 1960s and Aberdeen/Dundee United in the 1980s. The only difference now is that it is dominated by one club since the demise of Rangers.

    This is the situation that was engineered by the old G14 clubs and threatened UEFA and their own national Leagues by threatening a breakaway if their demands were not met. What has happened became inevitable after that. The one pleasing thing is that several of those clubs (Milan, Inter, Arsenal, etc.) seem to have been left behind and now are crying foul.
    Obviously Rangers dying had very little to do with UEFA but it's not quite the same. The last 50 years bar a blip in the mid-80's, there was always them and Rangers fighting for the title. Now it's only Celtic. What can be blamed on the CL money is that after the Rangers situation, it's enabled Celtic to further embed their position at the top. I genuinely am struggling to see how Sevco or any club will ever get near them.

    They already make alot more than any other SPFL club but chuck an extra £30m on top of that, year after year after year....

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member hibee_nation's Avatar
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    When the Lions get an even break in the NFL then i'll believe it's a level playing field

    #onepride
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  7. #36
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    Best way to impact change is stop watching the Champions League. If fans of non CL clubs done this on mass then there would be a dramatic fall in the TV audience and therefore the sponsorship and TV money would plummet. But sadly itís not going to happen as we are heading for a European super league with big clubs hovering up millions
    When you consider the fact that the vast majority of European football fans have nothing invested in the champions league, but they suffer as a consequence of it, it really is surprising that there hasn't been a groundswell of organised anti champions league activity from around Europe. I've said it before .... UEFA need to be reminded that they run European football for everybody, not just the giants, and that for every 'fan' who supports one of the cartel who have carved up the riches between them there are a hundred who don't.

    As for the European 'super league' ...... I have yet to see a solution presented to the obvious problem it is going to throw up for the Real Madrids, Barcelonas, Bayern Munichs etc.

    In just about every case these clubs are followed by 'supporters' who are used to going season after season watching their club lift at least one major trophy. Two years without a league championship or European trophy is viewed as a disaster .... look at Man Utd, they won the Europa League and their fans treated it like we would Hibs winning the Petrofac cup ..... for them something we would have viewed as the pinnacle of our clubs history was viewed as 'just about acceptable .. must do better'.

    How then will fans of clubs used to annual success react when the club they follow end up as also rans in this European super league? Does anybody think fans of Benfica, Porto, Ajax, Celtic or whatever other clubs from the smaller countries are allowed to dine at the masters table will retain their enthusiasm after a fifth season of finishing 10th out of 20 or flirting with relegation to 'super league two'?

    And then there are the real movers and shakers in this scenario, the likes of ... Real Madrid, Barcelona, Man Utd, Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Juventus and AC Milan. Especially in the case of Real Madrid and Barcelona, two clubs absolutely central to any super league, I would love to see the reaction to several seasons without success as the oil rich clubs like PAG and Man City begin to dominate .... if I recall the folk who follow these two clubs aren't exactly noted for their undying loyalty when the trophies stop rolling in. In fact neither Real Madrid or Barcelona sell out every week just now, how bad would it get if they were also rans?

    As the crowds in the stadiums begin to dwindle so will the enthusiasm of the TV audiences the league will rely on ...... Its a fact that you could put Morton v St Mirren in front of 60,000 baying fans and it would look exciting and colourful ... by the same token, put Bayern Munich v Man Utd on in front of 20,000 in a 70,000 capacity stadium and it will look hellish and far from glamorous. How many of these European 'uber fans' will turn out to watch a meaningless mid table clash between Benfica and Ajax .... not f'ing many is my guess.
    Last edited by NAE NOOKIE; 12-02-2018 at 11:52 AM.

  8. #37
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    I think the biggest impact of the "Champions League" is in devaluing domestic competition, particularly the EPL. Take the case of Liverpool who have been regulars in the "Champions League" without winning their domestic league. I can't remember the last time they won the league in England but they are content to qualify for the "Champions League" and treat 2nd, 3rd or 4th place as a success. There must be a generation of Liverpool fans who feel like Hibs fans do at the beginning of every season, hoping that the team perform well and might have a chance in the cups but knowing they won't win the league.

  9. #38
    Administrator matty_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Ingram View Post
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    Obviously Rangers dying had very little to do with UEFA but it's not quite the same. The last 50 years bar a blip in the mid-80's, there was always them and Rangers fighting for the title. Now it's only Celtic. What can be blamed on the CL money is that after the Rangers situation, it's enabled Celtic to further embed their position at the top. I genuinely am struggling to see how Sevco or any club will ever get near them.

    They already make alot more than any other SPFL club but chuck an extra £30m on top of that, year after year after year....
    Celtc should (if they are at all competent) win the league for the next however many years - you would say that the odds on them winning the league indefinitely are very good as without major investment, nobody else is even close to competing with them financially.

    Your post highlights how major that investment has to be.

    With only on CL place available for Scottish sides, it won't be too long before The Rangers realise that they're never going to compete with Celtc and stop throwing money at it.
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    Dortmund are the 5th biggest supported club in Europe, I would hope they could win the odd title.


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    But arent a european superpower club, in the traditional sense, which was my point.

  11. #40
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    Celtc should (if they are at all competent) win the league for the next however many years - you would say that the odds on them winning the league indefinitely are very good as without major investment, nobody else is even close to competing with them financially.

    Your post highlights how major that investment has to be.

    With only on CL place available for Scottish sides, it won't be too long before The Rangers realise that they're never going to compete with Celtc and stop throwing money at it.
    They have stopped throwing money at it. They just pretend they haven't to keep the fans onside.

  12. #41
    @hibs.net private member hhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibee_nation View Post
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    When the Lions get an even break in the NFL then i'll believe it's a level playing field

    #onepride

    Try being a Browns fan !

  13. #42
    @hibs.net private member Winston Ingram's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    Celtc should (if they are at all competent) win the league for the next however many years - you would say that the odds on them winning the league indefinitely are very good as without major investment, nobody else is even close to competing with them financially.

    Your post highlights how major that investment has to be.

    With only on CL place available for Scottish sides, it won't be too long before The Rangers realise that they're never going to compete with Celtc and stop throwing money at it.
    The state of their recent accounts and the way weíre chucking money about in Jan suggests that they are more likely facing a visit from Duff & Phelps that getting to the CL.

  14. #43
    Solipsist Eyrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibee_nation View Post
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    When the Lions get an even break in the NFL then i'll believe it's a level playing field

    #onepride
    Quote Originally Posted by hhibs View Post
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    Try being a Browns fan !
    Two weeks ago I'd have said try being an Eagles fan.

    There's always hope, and your day will come. As any Hibs fan can testify
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  15. #44
    @hibs.net private member blackpoolhibs's Avatar
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    I must be in the minority, because i only really watch the big games in the champions league. The run of the mill league stage games i might have on, but could be doing a number of things while its on in the corner.

    If the games were knockout games, then that would attract my attention a lot more, but they only start after they have ensured the big clubs have reached that stage.

    I cant see my viewing pattern changing soon, although they probably don't count me in their viewing figures, unless they count zgemma and firetv streams?

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member hibee_nation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhibs View Post
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    Try being a Browns fan !
    Welcome to the 0 - 16 club glad you could join us
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  17. #46
    First Team Regular Green Reaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hhibs View Post
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    Try being a Browns fan !
    It's a dogs life. Know hiw you feel

  18. #47
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  19. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Winston Ingram View Post
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    Obviously Rangers dying had very little to do with UEFA but it's not quite the same. The last 50 years bar a blip in the mid-80's, there was always them and Rangers fighting for the title. Now it's only Celtic. What can be blamed on the CL money is that after the Rangers situation, it's enabled Celtic to further embed their position at the top. I genuinely am struggling to see how Sevco or any club will ever get near them.

    They already make alot more than any other SPFL club but chuck an extra £30m on top of that, year after year after year....
    If one of the non OF teams has a player half decent and are posing a challenge to the OF, the players head to Glasgow fir a pittance or the strategically upset the player

    Whittaker
    Thomson
    MacKay-Steven
    Christie
    Morgan
    Allan
    Telfer
    Jack
    Docherty
    Bain
    Armstrong
    Ciftci

    Ahve criticised Petrie on here before but have to give him credit for getting what we did oot of Celtic.

    Best we can hope fir is the transfer market going nuts and the whole hing fallen apart. Teams will go bust (some deserved) but its aw wrong and something needs tae happen.

  20. #49
    Testimonial Due Waxy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe6-2 View Post
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    I can see the whole thing implode, the money just canít go on and on at this rate
    Once the little guys get sick of it theyíll take their ball back.

  21. #50
    Solipsist Eyrie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waxy View Post
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    Once the little guys get sick of it theyíll take their ball back.
    Don't hold your breath.

    We could fix a lot of the problems in Scottish football if 40 clubs reminded the other two that they need the rest of us a lot more than we need them.
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