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  1. #1
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    Scottish Govt misuse of Prestwick?

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/07/scottish-government-criticised-over-us-military-use-of-airport

    SNP hypocrisy and lying? Or legitimate use of taxpayer money and our special relationship with the USA?

    Personally i dont have a problem with the USAF using the airport, they are our allies (and we let them use it in the past for ferrying about torture victims!)

    However i am more concerned with it being a sinkhole for taxpayer money - already double what the SG said it would be, and the idea of a spaceport doesnt seem imminent (even if it is realistic).

    What do people think?
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 07-02-2018 at 05:35 PM.


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    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/07/scottish-government-criticised-over-us-military-use-of-airport

    SNP hypocrisy and lying? Or legitimate use of taxpayer money and our special relationship with the USA?

    Personally i dont have a problem with the USAF using the airport, they are our allies (and we let them use it in the past for ferrying about torture victims!)

    However i am more concerned with it being a sinkhole for taxpayer money - already double what the SG said it would be, and the idea of a spaceport doesnt seem imminent (even if it is realistic).

    What do people think?
    Make them land on an aircraft carrier parked in the Clyde - Yankees go home!
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    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    “The forward-basing of US aircraft in Europe enhances our ability to conduct rapid global mobility, global strike operations and training to maintain combat-ready forces”.

    Turns my stomach to think we’re helping in them “spread democracy” to places that “need it”.

    Some things are worth more than money.

  5. #4
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    As it stands I'm "happy" this is happening, the extra income helps reduce the amount amount of money the Scottish government pays to keep the airport going (my taxes) therefore saving many jobs and from an international perspective its down to the UK government (which has Scottish representation) to keep the US honest, for want of a better word in its operations from the airport.

    If we were independent, the whole thing would lie with the Scottish government and I might be thinking a completely different thing! Not sure a Scottish Labour government would be doing it (although with all that's gone on over recent years I could actually see a Scot Conservative government appear 1st)




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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/07/scottish-government-criticised-over-us-military-use-of-airport

    SNP hypocrisy and lying? Or legitimate use of taxpayer money and our special relationship with the USA?

    Personally i dont have a problem with the USAF using the airport, they are our allies (and we let them use it in the past for ferrying about torture victims!)

    However i am more concerned with it being a sinkhole for taxpayer money - already double what the SG said it would be, and the idea of a spaceport doesnt seem imminent (even if it is realistic).

    What do people think?
    Was always going to be a disaster and not surprisingly I was dead against it at the start.

    Since then however the SG have have just compounded the issue and have had plenty opportunity to admit it was a terrible idea and stop throwing good money after bad.

    A classic example of populist policies that see the government use public money for their own political gain. Even now they won’t admit it’s all been a huge waste of money or at the very least an inappropriate risk for the public purse to have taken on.

    So now we have almost £50m in losses in 4 years and the solution is to use it as a pseudo US airforce base. Top work.

  7. #6
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Just did a bit of Googling, the airport supports around 6500 Scottish jobs and adds back approx £61 million into the economy.




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    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Just to add, it's not clear over what period that £61 million is though?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    Just to add, it's not clear over what period that £61 million is though?

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    Also, surely its not adding money to the economy if that money is being taken out of the economy (taxes) in the first place?

    Also, 6500 jobs seems a lot for an airport that has only a couple of routine flights.

    Im just not sure a govt making cuts to the nhs should be running a nationalised airport that is costing us millions? It always seemed to me like a pointless airport anyway, being on 40 odd miles from glasgow airport and around 100 from Edinburgh, and serves a fairly sparse semi-rural population?

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    "Adding" is maybe the wrong word... Contributing to the economy is better (income tax etc)

    Re the scheduled flights, that's around 8-10% of the revenue stream, the majority is on airline aircraft servicing etc.



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  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    "Adding" is maybe the wrong word... Contributing to the economy is better (income tax etc)

    Re the scheduled flights, that's around 8-10% of the revenue stream, the majority is on airline aircraft servicing etc.



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    Fair enough on the servicing, i stand corrected.

    But why do thesr local workers get effectively state sponsored jobs, over any other group of employees?

    A cynic might suggest that there is a political motive. I think that our FMs own parents are councillors in Ayrshire, i wonder if this is their area?

    But anyway, im not against the state owning and running vital infrastructure - i just wonder if an airport 30 miles from another airport is that vital?

    Maybe it wouls be the airforce base of an indy scotlands airforce? (Im not being facetious, thats a genuine question) but even if, could it not be mothballed in the meantime?
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 07-02-2018 at 09:44 PM.

  12. #11
    Glasgow airport to Prestwick is 32 miles.
    Glasgow airport to Edinburgh airport is 48 miles... I'm not sure the distance between these airports is of any consequence ?

    *Meant to quote the post above*

  13. #12
    Prestwick makes Hampden look relevant.

  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    In other news, The Scottish Government 'saved' Prestwick from closure and kept it running and have found a potential buyer. Think of those lost jobs if they hadn't intervened.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...scue-1-4611194
    #Persevered
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    In other news, The Scottish Government 'saved' Prestwick from closure and kept it running and have found a potential buyer. Think of those lost jobs if they hadn't intervened.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...scue-1-4611194
    Well good luck to them on that...last set of accounts are horrible and just continue a trend. A loss of £6.5m on turnover of £11.5m would suggest this venture is a long way from ever turning a profit.

    Would be great if it was sold but who is going to cover the £50m accumulated losses as well as buy an asset leaking £6m+ a year with pathetic passenger numbers (678,000 for gawds sake...Edinburgh is doing north of 12m!) and flat cargo volumes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianmc View Post
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    Glasgow airport to Prestwick is 32 miles.
    Glasgow airport to Edinburgh airport is 48 miles... I'm not sure the distance between these airports is of any consequence ?

    *Meant to quote the post above*
    Of course it is. You need to have a certain population to support airports, otherwise it doesnt get customers. If you are trying to compete for the same customers with two larger, better situated and more famous competitors for the same custoners, it is very relevant surely?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    In other news, The Scottish Government 'saved' Prestwick from closure and kept it running and have found a potential buyer. Think of those lost jobs if they hadn't intervened.

    https://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...scue-1-4611194
    If that pans out, then kudos to the SG. Hopefully we get a deal where we eventually gwt recompense for the money we have put in.

  18. #17
    I'm sure there was interest from the Trump Organisation in acquiring Prestwick.....

    The problem with Prestwick is it no longer has a USP for commercial airlines. For many years it's favourable weather and huge runway made it one of the few airports in the UK capable of dealing with transatlantic travel but improvments in technology and smaller aircraft having greater ranges has removed that. Budget airlines have centered more of their operations around Edinburgh and Glasgow who both competed aggressively to acquire their business and that included lowering fees to compete with Prestwick.

    It's still an important airport for testing and some larger cargo aircraft so perhaps the future solution is to wind down passenger facilities and flights altogether and compete for more business in different spheres.
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    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    not every airport needs commercial passenger flights to survive

    https://perthairport.co.uk/

    or large populations

    http://www.hial.co.uk/barra-airport/
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Fair enough on the servicing, i stand corrected.

    But why do thesr local workers get effectively state sponsored jobs, over any other group of employees?

    A cynic might suggest that there is a political motive. I think that our FMs own parents are councillors in Ayrshire, i wonder if this is their area?

    But anyway, im not against the state owning and running vital infrastructure - i just wonder if an airport 30 miles from another airport is that vital?

    Maybe it wouls be the airforce base of an indy scotlands airforce? (Im not being facetious, thats a genuine question) but even if, could it not be mothballed in the meantime?
    Why not?

    They’d be on benefits if they didn’t have a job (more of a drain on the taxpayers purse).

    Here they pay taxes, feed, clothe and house their kids. They shop in the local economy (paying VAT).

    Governments use economic stimulus all the time in areas that need it.

    I’m also positive that these sort of deals (USAF forward basing) would have to have the seal of approval from the Ministry of Defence.

    J
    Last edited by Bristolhibby; 08-02-2018 at 01:55 PM.

  21. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    not every airport needs commercial passenger flights to survive

    https://perthairport.co.uk/

    or large populations

    http://www.hial.co.uk/barra-airport/
    True. But the ongoing losses made at prestwick would suggest its current model isnt working. Maybe it needs to make some job losses to realign with its new business reality, like those small airports you mention?

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Why not?

    They’d be on benefits if they didn’t have a job (more of a drain on the taxpayers purse).

    Here they pay taxes, feed, clothe and house their kids. They shop in the local economy (paying VAT).

    Governments use economic stimulus all the time in areas that need it.

    I’m also positive that these sort of deals (USAF forward basing) would have to have the seal of approval from the Ministry of Defence.

    J
    Its a fair argument, and id be open to persuasion if the nunbers made sense. And it would habe to be a strategic decision made by the SG.

    But, they would also apend benefits - at the moment they are paying tax, but they are also being heavily subsidised by tax.

    Im willing to bet the first thing that a new private operator / purchaser will do is make job losses.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Of course it is. You need to have a certain population to support airports, otherwise it doesnt get customers. If you are trying to compete for the same customers with two larger, better situated and more famous competitors for the same custoners, it is very relevant surely?
    Correct. And the vast majority of Scotland's population is within 70 miles of Prestwick. I know lots of people who have chosen to fly from Newcastle, Manchester or Aberdeen because the deals on offer were much better value for money, so I'm not sure why you're banging on about distance.

    *By the way, it's nowhere near 100 miles from Edinburgh to Prestwick either - but this subject appears to be something that you're much more agitated about than I am , so I'll bow out now and let you crack on.

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    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    True. But the ongoing losses made at prestwick would suggest its current model isnt working. Maybe it needs to make some job losses to realign with its new business reality, like those small airports you mention?
    The airport directly employs around 350 people, the majority of the 6500 total are engineering and other support roles for the airports main activities around servicing aircraft etc

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    Quote Originally Posted by brianmc View Post
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    Correct. And the vast majority of Scotland's population is within 70 miles of Prestwick. I know lots of people who have chosen to fly from Newcastle, Manchester or Aberdeen because the deals on offer were much better value for money, so I'm not sure why you're banging on about distance.

    *By the way, it's nowhere near 100 miles from Edinburgh to Prestwick either - but this subject appears to be something that you're much more agitated about than I am , so I'll bow out now and let you crack on.
    Im not agitated at all 🖒

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    The airport directly employs around 350 people, the majority of the 6500 total are engineering and other support roles for the airports main activities around servicing aircraft etc

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
    Fair enough, hopefully we sell it and it becomes a thriving business- and hopefully without that ridiculous slogan!

  27. #26
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Fair enough, hopefully we sell it and it becomes a thriving business- and hopefully without that ridiculous slogan!
    Indeed!

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  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/07/scottish-government-criticised-over-us-military-use-of-airport

    SNP hypocrisy and lying? Or legitimate use of taxpayer money and our special relationship with the USA?

    Personally i dont have a problem with the USAF using the airport, they are our allies (and we let them use it in the past for ferrying about torture victims!)

    However i am more concerned with it being a sinkhole for taxpayer money - already double what the SG said it would be, and the idea of a spaceport doesnt seem imminent (even if it is realistic).

    What do people think?
    This subject was discussed in the Scottish Parliament today. You can see the exchange between Patrick Harvie, and the FM here.

    21.15 in.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/ScottishParl


    SCOTLAND CAN.

  29. #28
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    True. But the ongoing losses made at prestwick would suggest its current model isnt working. Maybe it needs to make some job losses to realign with its new business reality, like those small airports you mention?
    It's not always just about numbers or money.

    For example 60 staunch Tory Bertixeers are dictating our exit from Europe which according to the governments own figures will cost our economy £60bn over the next 10 years.

    Prestwick is peanuts in comparison.
    Space to let

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    It's not always just about numbers or money.

    For example 60 staunch Tory Bertixeers are dictating our exit from Europe which according to the governments own figures will cost our economy £60bn over the next 10 years.

    Prestwick is peanuts in comparison.

    And 17m voters...

    So are you saying nobody should question the Scottish Govt on anything, because brexit is a massive ****-up?

    Also, you say its not all about numbers and money, then you used... numbers and money as your evidence for defending Prestwick?

  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    And 17m voters...

    So are you saying nobody should question the Scottish Govt on anything, because brexit is a massive ****-up?

    Also, you say its not all about numbers and money, then you used... numbers and money as your evidence for defending Prestwick?
    I was giving an example of where government policy isn't always about numbers or money, it's about the perceived benefit to the local and/or national interest, there are plenty others.
    Space to let

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