Neil Lennon - best manager since...

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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You would think Hugh Shaw would have the best win ratio . We won 3 titles and 2 runners up with him at the helm .

And the two runners up were, i think on goal average?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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Fenlon had us 3rd?

If memory serves... at the start of his full season in charge, with cairney on the left wing, doyle and Griffiths up front - i could be wrong, but i remember have a very hibs-esque good start to the season?

[SouthsideHarp_Bhoy]

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He didn't say we finished 3rd under Fenlon.

Fenlon actually had us top of the league in November. We were 7th by the end of the season though.

Cheers, knew somebody with a better memory would know!

[Stevie Reid]

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Cheers, knew somebody with a better memory would know!

nae bother

The game that put us top:

[Pretty Boy]

On my deathbed I doubt I'll remember 3 years in the Championship, I hope I'll still have enough about me to be able to remember 21st May 2016.

Alan Stubbs was a fantastic manager for us. In the heat of the moment post play offs I dismissed a lot of what he had done but with hindsight he was a key part in the rebuilding of Hibs. Of course the Scottish Cup win may be clouding peoples judgement, it's certainly got about 6-7000 fans attending regularly again for the 1st time in years.

Stubbs and Lennon may well prove to be 2 of the most defining managers in our history. In the past good football, cup wins and decent league finishes always felt a bit flash in the pan. Our last and current manager, along with others at the club, seem to be creating a culture where this is the norm.

[wookie70]

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Did Stubbs do what he was expected to do?

Stubbs would have been expected to finish 2nd imo that first year and then put up a good show in play-offs and hopefully get promoted. The referee and luck probably played a big part in us not going through to the final.

The second year it would have been to finish second behind The Rangers and we missed out on that by 2 goals and went to a League Cup final, where we were unlucky to get beaten, and won the Holy Grail. If he had lost that final I would have said he had failed but not by a huge margin. In winning it he went firmly into the plus column for me.

The amount of games we played also comes into my thinking with Stubbs as fatigue got the better of us towards the end of that season. Lennon is using that excuse now after a winter break a few weeks ago. I think Lennon has a point but just think of the games we had to play getting to two finals and play-offs in the same season without a break.

[pacoluna]

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Stubbs would have been expected to finish 2nd imo that first year and then put up a good show in play-offs and hopefully get promoted. The referee and luck probably played a big part in us not going through to the final.

The second year it would have been to finish second behind The Rangers and we missed out on that by 2 goals and went to a League Cup final, where we were unlucky to get beaten, and won the Holy Grail. If he had lost that final I would have said he had failed but not by a huge margin. In winning it he went firmly into the plus column for me.

The amount of games we played also comes into my thinking with Stubbs as fatigue got the better of us towards the end of that season. Lennon is using that excuse now after a winter break a few weeks ago. I think Lennon has a point but just think of the games we had to play getting to two finals and play-offs in the same season without a break.

I hear all this and at some points I agree. However I always come back to the same conclusion that Lennon is a more competent manager than Stubbs in most categories. Perhaps it's his enthusiasm and his willingness to tell things as they are that appeals to me more.

[Stevie Reid]

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Stubbs would have been expected to finish 2nd imo that first year and then put up a good show in play-offs and hopefully get promoted. The referee and luck probably played a big part in us not going through to the final.

The second year it would have been to finish second behind The Rangers and we missed out on that by 2 goals and went to a League Cup final, where we were unlucky to get beaten, and won the Holy Grail. If he had lost that final I would have said he had failed but not by a huge margin. In winning it he went firmly into the plus column for me.

The amount of games we played also comes into my thinking with Stubbs as fatigue got the better of us towards the end of that season. Lennon is using that excuse now after a winter break a few weeks ago. I think Lennon has a point but just think of the games we had to play getting to two finals and play-offs in the same season without a break.

I love Stubbs, I will always be grateful to him for what he did for us, and he will always be a legend for the Scottish Cup win. There is much that he deserves credit for.

The 2nd place finish in his first season was satisfying as we had such an horrendous start and we overtook Rangers right at the death, but we finished 21 points behind (an albeit resurgent) Hearts that season - and that despite them effectively not taking any points off us over the four league games (win each and two draws).

After 26 games in the Championship we were 20 points behind Hearts at the top of the league. After 26 games in the SPL, we are 16 points behind the best Celtic team in over ten years (not to mention 7 points ahead of Hearts) - that is quite an achievement, though I know we still have 12 games left.

Stubbs deserves the credit he gets. Lennon deserves much more credit than he gets from many on here, however.

[TelaStella]

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Since Alan Stubbs. End of thread.

This. No matter what you have to say about finishing behind Falkirk some of the fitbaw under Stubbs was absolutely terrific at times, championship or not. You can also thank him for SJM, Dylan, Daz, Marv, Boyle, bringing Allan in and even getting Cummings up and running.


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[jacomo]

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Stubbs deserves the credit he gets. Lennon deserves much more credit than he gets from many on here, however.

Both of them have their detractors. One rebuilt a demoralised squad and achieved the Holy Grail, the other has done everything asked of him so far, so the criticism seems a bit ridiculous.

Given some of our recent managerial appointments you’d have thought folk might have a better sense of perspective, but hey ho.

[G B Young]

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Agree with a lot of this, but would it not also be fair to say that Chairman Hart started to lose interest and boardroom decision making was what cost us. Turnbull, middle period saw the emergence of players like Des Bremner, Ally McLeod, Iain Munro, Bobby Smith, Jackie McNamara ( although Munro was swapped, presumably on Turnbull's say so), all signed or brought through the ranks by ET. By the time of relegation we were on our knees, Nearly everything of value had been flogged, including the likes of Brownlie, Blackley.

Turnbull's early side played with a style rarely seen at ER. Although they only won a League Cup, the fact that they are so full fondly remembered 45 years on says iit all.

While Sir Alex Ferguson is (rightly) lauded for his extraordinary achievements at Aberdeen, Eddie had also rejuvenated the Dons prior to his move to Hibs, winning them the Scottish Cup just a few years before Ferguson took over.

I agree about it being difficult to compare managers and players from different eras but there's no question Turnbull was acknowledged by his peers at the time as one of the best in the business. A hard man no question and certainly not universally liked by his players, but respected by almost all of them.

Jock Stein's Celtic started to slide around the same time as Hibs (I recall Celtic finishing 5th one season in the mid to late 70s), so perhaps the game/society was changing around these managers of the old school.

[DH1875]

If you could 100% guarantee me Stubbs wanted the job and that we could 100% get him in as manager in the morning I'd actually say, no thanks, let's stick with Lennon and see how that goes. It's a funny old world

[Weir07]

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A bit early to judge for me. I would say Stubbs was better(Cup win, cup runs, rebuilt squad and team spirit from rock bottom, good eye for a player, style of play) so Lennon isn't the best manager since anyone else. He won the Championship but without the kind of competition Stubbs had. From what I read St. Mirren have more points than we did at this stage last year against similar opposition but on a fraction of our budget. Lennon has done really well in the league this year and the new signings look a step up on their predecessors, at least on the back of a couple of good wins. Lot's of the good qualities that Stubbs brought have been maintained with Lennon and you could definitely argue we are a bit more resilient and have a bit more steel.

When Stubbs' team break up, probably in the summer, we will start to get an idea how good Lennon is as a manager. If we are up fighting in the same position next year as we are this year then he will be the best manager for a good while. At the moment he is a manager doing what he is expected to do or slightly above that, which to be fair is a step up on most we have had in the 40 odd years I've watched Hibs. The vast majority of Hibs managers in my time were failures and Lennon has been a success up to this point and hopefully for a good while to come.

The most considered and balanced post in the whole thread in my opinion, sums it up nicely.

[wookie70]

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After 26 games in the Championship we were 20 points behind Hearts at the top of the league. After 26 games in the SPL, we are 16 points behind the best Celtic team in over ten years (not to mention 7 points ahead of Hearts) - that is quite an achievement, though I know we still have 12 games left.

Stubbs deserves the credit he gets. Lennon deserves much more credit than he gets from many on here, however.

Very fair point about how many points we are behind Celtic(their team last year was a good bit better imo) and I'm praising Lennon for that as I think we are one place ahead of target. He is performing slightly better than I think I would expect with a chance of doing significantly better or of course finishing having done ok this year. I doubt we will be below 5th now.

Lennon hasn't had the longest time in the hot seat so you have to take last season into consideration when answering the OPs question imo. Hibs had 47 points after 24 games last year and St. Mirren now have 54. Hibs lost and drew games 25 and 26. Winning the league was his job and he done that but we were heavy favourites and it wasn't as convincing as I would have expected with a Cup Winning Squad and a close season to improve. So job done and no more last year for me and job done slightly better than expected this year with quite a few games left. The loss to Hearts in the Cup and the shenanigans from 3 players he signed/resigned, all of whom had previous disciplinary issues, go in the negative column for me although the Players deserve more blame than Lennon. Getting to the LC semi equals that out though as a semi a season is good going albeit not on the level Stubb's managed.

In no way am I saying Lennon is a bad manager but it's too early to say how good imo and next season will be the time to judge when the team is mostly his and we will be in our second season in the top league.

[WhileTheChief..]

It’s not just about the results though.

The way he talks about the game is impressive. He explains his thinking and seems to see the same things as us. Watch any of his interviews on Hibs TV and compare them to and of the other managers ones, it’s chalk and cheese.

We definitely get a better press with him in charge and it feels like the club is taken more seriously now. He’s also raised our profile nationally.

To me, Stubbs felt like a temporary appointment and that he was just passing through. Lennon I think, sees us a challenge and is trying to build something special.

As an aside, let’s not compare what he did last season to what St Mirren are currently doing. We finished about 50 points clear of them last season!!

It appears like some people just can’t wait for him to fail.

[Clarence]

I don't think any of these managers would beat the Gala Galactico in a changing room press-up off.

[stantonhibby]

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Very fair point about how many points we are behind Celtic(their team last year was a good bit better imo) and I'm praising Lennon for that as I think we are one place ahead of target. He is performing slightly better than I think I would expect with a chance of doing significantly better or of course finishing having done ok this year. I doubt we will be below 5th now.

Lennon hasn't had the longest time in the hot seat so you have to take last season into consideration when answering the OPs question imo. Hibs had 47 points after 24 games last year and St. Mirren now have 54. Hibs lost and drew games 25 and 26. Winning the league was his job and he done that but we were heavy favourites and it wasn't as convincing as I would have expected with a Cup Winning Squad and a close season to improve. So job done and no more last year for me and job done slightly better than expected this year with quite a few games left. The loss to Hearts in the Cup and the shenanigans from 3 players he signed/resigned, all of whom had previous disciplinary issues, go in the negative column for me although the Players deserve more blame than Lennon. Getting to the LC semi equals that out though as a semi a season is good going albeit not on the level Stubb's managed.

In no way am I saying Lennon is a bad manager but it's too early to say how good imo and next season will be the time to judge when the team is mostly his and we will be in our second season in the top league.

We did horse Hearts in the cup last year and get to SC semi.

[theonlywayisup]

I've not read the previous posts and don't intend to.

To me, this is the opposite of the "which drunk has the best bad breath" analogy.

Both are up there with the best ever Hibs managers. Would Lennon have won the cup against a poor The Rangers team - not convinced. Would Stubbs have got us promotion against the anti-football teams in the Championship - not convinced.

Both managers have their strengths and weaknesses.

If I was to be pushed, I think we are extremely lucky to have a manager of Lennon's ability. He has a very good track record apart from his time at Bolton.

If we didn't have Lennon, the only other manager I would want is Stubbs.

We are lucky to have had both.

[ian cruise]

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I've not read the previous posts and don't intend to.

To me, this is the opposite of the "which drunk has the best bad breath" analogy.

Both are up there with the best ever Hibs managers. Would Lennon have won the cup against a poor The Rangers team - not convinced. Would Stubbs have got us promotion against the anti-football teams in the Championship - not convinced.

Both managers have their strengths and weaknesses.

If I was to be pushed, I think we are extremely lucky to have a manager of Lennon's ability. He has a very good track record apart from his time at Bolton.

If we didn't have Lennon, the only other manager I would want is Stubbs.

We are lucky to have had both.

Lennon is doing OK against poor Rangers teams these days....

[Forza Fred]

I think they both came in the best order for us, and their ‘skill set’ matched the times

By that I mean Stubbsie came in at a time of transition, and kind of assisted in nurturing change, and rebuilding what was a squad pretty much at rock bottom.

Lennon on the other hand took over a pretty good performing squad where much was expected of them, and instilled a ‘winning mentality’ in most, and seems more of a seargant major type, than a friendly uncle.

There was a place for both approaches, and I think both have been/are/will continue to be for us.

I like Lennon, and hope he stays for a few more years but if he was to be pinched from us, would be quite happy if Stubbs was his successor.

[Smartie]

I loved Stubbs. Great transfer record, great manager, played good football, won the cup. He seemed like a good lad too.

I also love Lennon. He's done everything asked of him and is a superb manager who is overseeing a continued improvement.

There's a lot to like about Lennon, but I do particularly like that his life's experiences have left him thick skinned and broad shouldered. The criticism that comes his way will be like water off a duck's back. He'll know he's doing a good job, he'll know that he needs to continue to do so and he won't be in any way sensitive to the frequent nonsense that gets chucked about in football.

I'll be forever grateful to Stubbs for his achievement, and we've had good managers in the past, but I've never warmed to a Hibs manager the way I've warmed to Lennon. I think he's the real deal and deserves a big gig again in future.

[HoboHarry]

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I loved Stubbs. Great transfer record, great manager, played good football, won the cup. He seemed like a good lad too.

I also love Lennon. He's done everything asked of him and is a superb manager who is overseeing a continued improvement.

There's a lot to like about Lennon, but I do particularly like that his life's experiences have left him thick skinned and broad shouldered. The criticism that comes his way will be like water off a duck's back. He'll know he's doing a good job, he'll know that he needs to continue to do so and he won't be in any way sensitive to the frequent nonsense that gets chucked about in football.

I'll be forever grateful to Stubbs for his achievement, and we've had good managers in the past, but I've never warmed to a Hibs manager the way I've warmed to Lennon. I think he's the real deal and deserves a big gig again in future.

Thoroughly enjoy reading your posts Smartie. Consistently a pleasant change from some of the other lunatic posts to be found on .net.......

[monktonharp]

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Not quite - but he did do what he wasn't expected to do; not in any of our craziest, wildest dreams!

[monktonharp]

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This. People seem to forget that Stubbs had a massive rebuilding job on his hands when he came in. He was never gonna get promoted in the first season back IMO and whilst we should’ve been promoted in the 2nd, he took us to both cup finals, which means a lot more games. He did this all whilst playing entertaining, attacking football. Stubbs is arguably one of the most important managers in our history.

Alan Stubbs, and his background staff at the time will be remembered as the best thing that happened to Hibernian, since sliced breed! how anyone can compare his achievement that year against others, when he took us to 2 cup finals (both we should have won imho) really gets me. we had a couple of unbelievable decisions against us that year regarding the play offs too. the performance on 21/5/16 was something that Hibs fans dreamed about for more than a hundred years and he was a major part of that. Do remember, a 2nd Division club that almost clinched promotion but didn't, also went on and got to 2 major cup finals and won the most prized. that wont ever happen again, and it's a bit like saying Gordon Smith won league medals with 3 different clubs and all outwith the OF. Alan Stubbs, legend

[Austinho]

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To me, Stubbs felt like a temporary appointment and that he was just passing through. Lennon I think, sees us a challenge and is trying to build something special.

It was Stubbs that rebuilt our squad from scratch after we got relegated - something we are still reaping the benefits of now. The likes of Super John McGinn, Boyle, Bartley, Sir David Gray, Darren McGregor and Dylan McGeouch are the lifeblood of this club currently. Stubbs appointment was far from temporary, in fact he set the foundations for where we are now.

Lennon on the other hand has had to let go 2 of his own signings after half a season and replaced them with quite a few loan signings, with no guarantee any of them will be here next season. And if SJM leaves, our squad could look completely different next year. I really like Lennon and think he’s doing a fantastic job, but his signings don’t indicate building for the long term. Efe has been his only real success so far, but signing the likes of Whittaker, Brian Graham, Grant Holt - don’t seem like future thinking really.

IMO, Stubbs was better with new signings and transforming the club, Lennon superior at implementing what those players do on the pitch and giving us a bit of grit. They’ve been the perfect foil for each other really.