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  1. #601
    @hibs.net private member Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    Until there is conclusive proof that he exists, God cannot exist
    I'm not really sure what you mean by this. It's entirely possible for things to exist without conclusive proof. Prior to the colonisation of the land, which is known as the USA today, by Westerners, you'd struggle to provide conclusive proof of its existence to someone living in Edinburgh at that time. That doesn't mean it didn't exist.


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  3. #602
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I'm not really sure what you mean by this. It's entirely possible for things to exist without conclusive proof. Prior to the colonisation of the land, which is known as the USA today, by Westerners, you'd struggle to provide conclusive proof of its existence to someone living in Edinburgh at that time. That doesn't mean it didn't exist.
    The USA isn't omnipotent though and didn't dictate a wee book telling us all about it.

  4. #603
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    The USA isn't omnipotent though and didn't dictate a wee book telling us all about it.
    Give him time

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  5. #604
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Give him time

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  6. #605
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I'm not really sure what you mean by this. It's entirely possible for things to exist without conclusive proof. Prior to the colonisation of the land, which is known as the USA today, by Westerners, you'd struggle to provide conclusive proof of its existence to someone living in Edinburgh at that time. That doesn't mean it didn't exist.

    But it did exist, it was always there just we couldn't see it because of the distance, so we don't need to prove it's existence. Do you think Hercules or the Medusa existed, what about dragons and any other mythical being or creature.

  7. #606
    @hibs.net private member SRHibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    There's another way in which a God might be valid, which doesn't involve archaeological evidence. More a logical thing than archaeological, ie something that has to be, logically, to make good sense of everything else. A bit like the square root of minus one (for which there is also no 'evidence', in the sense that you and no doubt Fife-Hibee crave). The square root of minus one is an imaginary number.

    I don’t think that’s an argument for God, because it’s recursive. Who created him? That said, I don’t know either way. IMO the most logical stance is agnosticism.


  8. #607
    @hibs.net private member SRHibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    But it did exist, it was always there just we couldn't see it because of the distance, so we don't need to prove it's existence. Do you think Hercules or the Medusa existed, what about dragons and any other mythical being or creature.

    Those people didn’t know that it didn’t exist. However, if someone theorised about the existence of the USA before we had actually ‘discovered’ it, it would be disingenuous to say that it doesn’t exist, or conversely, that it does. We might not have had the means to prove its existence, just like we don’t have the means to prove or disprove the existence of God (and almost certainly never will).


  9. #608
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    But it did exist, it was always there just we couldn't see it because of the distance, so we don't need to prove it's existence. Do you think Hercules or the Medusa existed, what about dragons and any other mythical being or creature.
    They do exist, it's just we can't see them because of the distance

  10. #609
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    My one for this thread is anti-Semitism.

    I've never understood why so many people have an issue with Jews.

  11. #610
    @hibs.net private member lapsedhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    Again what I don't get is IF god created the heaven and earth and made man in his own image, why is there so many various religions and beliefs, surely there would be only one belief, IF god is real why would he allow all these other beliefs to even exist.
    "Zwei", "deux", "dos", "due", etc

  12. #611
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    But it did exist, it was always there just we couldn't see it because of the distance, so we don't need to prove it's existence. Do you think Hercules or the Medusa existed, what about dragons and any other mythical being or creature.
    And perhaps we can't "see" any divine beings... yet.

    One of the arguments made against their existence is that there is no scientific evidence. That makes the assumption that our science knows all there is to know; that's quite an arrogant assumption IMO.

    If we knew that we had 99% of all scientific knowledge, I would accept that there is no basis for the existence of divine beings. We don't know that, though. For all we know, we have less than 1% of all knowledge.

    Until we know everything, we have to keep an open mind IMO.



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  13. #612
    @hibs.net private member lapsedhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by matty_f View Post
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    It's not a huge leap of faith - throw a ball in the air and it will come back down, try to figure out why and you'll eventually get to the answer : gravity.
    Our understanding of gravity isn't particularly clear just now (eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity). There might be a different understanding if history was re-run. On a trivial level, there might not be apples, or trees, or Newton, as they were all the products of chance mutations; on a more serious level, if there's anything to Big Bounce theories, physical constants might be different. Though I realise that Ricky Gervais wasn't going back that far.

  14. #613
    @hibs.net private member lapsedhibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRHibs View Post
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    I don’t think that’s an argument for God, because it’s recursive. Who created him? That said, I don’t know either way. IMO the most logical stance is agnosticism.
    Think perhaps the currently accepted scientific explanation for the origin of the universe, which if I understand it aright involves the notion of an initial singularity out of which space and time arose, implies a similar infinite regress.

  15. #614
    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    Again what I don't get is IF god created the heaven and earth and made man in his own image, why is there so many various religions and beliefs, surely there would be only one belief, IF god is real why would he allow all these other beliefs to even exist.

    Or is it not just a fact that throughout the world the various indigenous people had differing view points and those turned out to be what turned into their beliefs and religions for that part of the world, we here in Britain were Pagan worshippers before the Romans, Jutes, Germanic and Vikings came here . Some days of the week take their names from these people, Saturday ( Saturn ) Thursday ( Thor ) 2 Gods from their beliefs.
    Free will.

    You have inadvertently or otherwise asked one of the most important and problematic philosophical and theological questions.
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  16. #615
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    Free will.

    You have inadvertently or otherwise asked one of the most important and problematic philosophical and theological questions.

    Not knocking anyone with free will, people can believe in anything they wish, we live in a free world but for me I just don't get religion with all the different variant forms of religions to me shows that in early mankind they attempted to understand why everything is what it is, a higher being seems a natural idea to explain these things.

    There are even people who believe aliens visited the earth thousands of years ago and are the gods we speak of as they probably descended from the sky in their crafts. Don't get me started on dinosaurs and the fact they were here millions of years ago before mankind appeared, let the bible explain that.

  17. #616
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    Not knocking anyone with free will, people can believe in anything they wish, we live in a free world but for me I just don't get religion with all the different variant forms of religions to me shows that in early mankind they attempted to understand why everything is what it is, a higher being seems a natural idea to explain these things.

    There are even people who believe aliens visited the earth thousands of years ago and are the gods we speak of as they probably descended from the sky in their crafts. Don't get me started on dinosaurs and the fact they were here millions of years ago before mankind appeared, let the bible explain that.
    One of my favourite stories is of the scientists finally getting to the top of the mountain of knowledge, to find that the theologians had been sitting there for thousands of years.

  18. #617
    Day Tripper matty_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    Our understanding of gravity isn't particularly clear just now (eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_gravity). There might be a different understanding if history was re-run. On a trivial level, there might not be apples, or trees, or Newton, as they were all the products of chance mutations; on a more serious level, if there's anything to Big Bounce theories, physical constants might be different. Though I realise that Ricky Gervais wasn't going back that far.
    I'm not talking about re-running history (nor was Ricky Gervais).
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  19. #618
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    Singalong events at the cinema. Why anyone would want to see a film with the audience singing the songs around them is quite beyond me.

  20. #619
    @hibs.net private member Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    But it did exist, it was always there just we couldn't see it because of the distance, so we don't need to prove it's existence. Do you think Hercules or the Medusa existed, what about dragons and any other mythical being or creature.
    But you said things can only exist when there is conclusive proof that they exist. My point is that lots of things have existed for long periods of time without people being aware of them, much less having conclusive proof of their existence.

    Someone may well say in 50, 100 or 1000 years, with conclusive proof, that God always existed, we just couldn't see "him". If that were to happen, God won't have moved from non-existence into existence, just as America didn't when people became aware of it.

    I don't really know whether any mythological creatures existed but, based on what I do know, I certainly wouldn't be able to state, for certain, that they didn't.

  21. #620
    @hibs.net private member bingo70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. S View Post
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    Singalong events at the cinema. Why anyone would want to see a film with the audience singing the songs around them is quite beyond me.
    God knows

  22. #621
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    Quote Originally Posted by bingo70 View Post
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    God knows
    Well without starting a religious debate.....Im unable to ask due to not being able to see him.

  23. #622
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    But you said things can only exist when there is conclusive proof that they exist. My point is that lots of things have existed for long periods of time without people being aware of them, much less having conclusive proof of their existence.

    Someone may well say in 50, 100 or 1000 years, with conclusive proof, that God always existed, we just couldn't see "him". If that were to happen, God won't have moved from non-existence into existence, just as America didn't when people became aware of it.

    I don't really know whether any mythological creatures existed but, based on what I do know, I certainly wouldn't be able to state, for certain, that they didn't.

    USA and the Americas were there of that there is no doubt, it was not a figment of someones imagination or an idea, god is a theory that involves the belief he/she/it created all the heavens and earth, as yet no proof just ancient writings. If proof becomes available I'll be the first to say, well there you go I was wrong until then I'll look upon all religion as made up nonsense( as far as I'm concerned ).

  24. #623
    @hibs.net private member Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-C View Post
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    USA and the Americas were there of that there is no doubt, it was not a figment of someones imagination or an idea, god is a theory that involves the belief he/she/it created all the heavens and earth, as yet no proof just ancient writings. If proof becomes available I'll be the first to say, well there you go I was wrong until then I'll look upon all religion as made up nonsense( as far as I'm concerned ).
    But there was a time when the existence of America WAS just an idea.

  25. #624
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    But there was a time when the existence of America WAS just an idea.
    You cannot have an idea of something you gave no knowledge of, Columbus wasn't looking for America, he was searching for another route to India, hence the reason the West Indies as named as such. Scientist search for the Higgs Bosun and black holes because theoretically they should exist, they didn't search for these things not knowing what they were looking for. At the time of Columbus they had no knowledge of the size of the earth, Columbus and others at that time didn't go looking for America, they discovered it by accident.

  26. #625
    @hibs.net private member SRHibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IGRIGI View Post
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    My one for this thread is anti-Semitism.

    I've never understood why so many people have an issue with Jews.
    I don’t think I ever saw a Jewish person in the first 25 years of my life spent in Scotland. Gateshead has a huge community of ultra-orthodox Jews and it’s rather odd.

  27. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by SRHibs View Post
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    I don’t think I ever saw a Jewish person in the first 25 years of my life spent in Scotland. Gateshead has a huge community of ultra-orthodox Jews and it’s rather odd.
    Edinburgh's Jewish community was traditionally around Newington and on the Southside due to the location of the Synagogue and the ability to walk there on the Sabbath.

    Our Church is organising a visit to the Synagogue with a reciprocal visit back to the Church from a group from the Jewish community. I'm quite looking forward to it as my knowledge of Judaism is patchy at best.
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  28. #627
    Testimonial Due wpj's Avatar
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    I lived down the road from Stamford Hill in London where thousands of orthodox Jews live, fascinating but they tend not to mingle much with others. Some lovely food shops there though.

  29. #628
    I read there are less than 300,000 Jewish people in the UK. I would have thought a lot more given the amount of discussion there is around the matter of anti-semitism etc. They also have their own police force. Does anyone know if this unique for such a small portion of the overall population?

  30. #629
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRHibs View Post
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    I don’t think I ever saw a Jewish person in the first 25 years of my life spent in Scotland. Gateshead has a huge community of ultra-orthodox Jews and it’s rather odd.
    You possibly did but not realised. They don't all wear "badges".

  31. #630
    Quote Originally Posted by SRHibs View Post
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    I don’t think I ever saw a Jewish person in the first 25 years of my life spent in Scotland. Gateshead has a huge community of ultra-orthodox Jews and it’s rather odd.
    They don't all have beards and wear hats. You must've saw Malcolm Rifkind?

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