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  1. #91
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    It's the nature of the beast.

    Try buying in New York or Miami.

    Or London.

    Big cities. Big prices. And Edinburgh is still relatively cheap.
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  3. #92
    @hibs.net private member Bishop Hibee's Avatar
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    In answer to the OP, yes and no. The monied class has always been in Edinburgh and has thrived since Thatcher. The bail out of the financial system showed they are bullet proof within the UK. Business as usual for them so that part of the soul of Edinburgh is the same. The part changing is the part made up of normal working people. Unless receiving a big inheritance, they are being forced out of the city. They are replaced by students, holiday lets, second homes and insecure accommodation for let. In this way Edinburgh has lost that part of its soul. Short of a housing price crash which I would welcome, the flight out of Edinburgh for teachers, nurses, office workers etc will continue.
    "Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.' - Paulo Freire

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee View Post
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    In answer to the OP, yes and no. The monied class has always been in Edinburgh and has thrived since Thatcher. The bail out of the financial system showed they are bullet proof within the UK. Business as usual for them so that part of the soul of Edinburgh is the same. The part changing is the part made up of normal working people. Unless receiving a big inheritance, they are being forced out of the city. They are replaced by students, holiday lets, second homes and insecure accommodation for let. In this way Edinburgh has lost that part of its soul. Short of a housing price crash which I would welcome, the flight out of Edinburgh for teachers, nurses, office workers etc will continue.
    I know plenty of techers and nurses that habe recently bought homes in Edinburgh.

    I think there is a differencd between literally being forced to move to the sticks because you cant afford a house in Edinburgh (are the prices really that much lower that its tge difference between no house and a house?) and people choosing to move out to get a bigger house, or the house they want with a garden etc.

    As with everything in life its about choices and priorities - and in amy city, there will be a trade-off between space and location - i know people who choose to live in a flat in order to stay quite central, and i know people who moved to east Lothian to get a 4 or 5 bedroom house.

    Not being able to get exactly what you want, exactly where you want it is a different thing to being forced out.

    Im mot saying thats the case for everyone, but i know so many people with normal jobs that habe bought houses / flats in edinburgh for me to think its impossible. Difficult, yeah, but life is a series of sacrifices and choices we all make.

    And those advocating a price crash - how is that not a selfish wish? How many families would struggle as a result of that happening?

  5. #94
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    It's the nature of the beast.

    Try buying in New York or Miami.

    Or London.

    Big cities. Big prices. And Edinburgh is still relatively cheap.
    Or Auckland, or even Wellington where prices are higher than Edinburgh by a fair bit.

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    We sold our flat in oxgangs about 4 years ago for 110k - two bed, family starter/young couple flat in a block of six - surely prices cant have risen that much in 4 years?

    If average salary is circa 27k, x 2, that is only twice a 54k salary.

    I apprdciate this is highly anecdotal, and not everyone will fit into these broad figures, but that doesnt seem unaffordable?

    I accept Edinburgh is an expensive city, but that is the price of success - there are plenty of cheap cities, but generally people dont want to live in them or there is little work.

    I think something has to be done though, to increas supply. Rhere will always be bars / shops / houses that are out of any given persons reach, thats life, but a situation where virtual renting agencies afe taking over does seem unfair - im not sure what the solution is though?
    They're currently building new flats and houses in Muirhouse, which recently come up as the 3rd most deprived area in Scotland. A new 2 bed flat on Pennywell Road starts at £140,000 to over £150,000 and a 2 bedroom semi is £185,000, ridiculously over-priced for the area.

    With regards to your point about a £110k flat - the mortgage on that will be very little however how do you save up £11,000 for the deposit then another £2/3k for fee's while paying nearly £700 to rent a one bed on Easter Road.

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    It's the nature of the beast.

    Try buying in New York or Miami.

    Or London.

    Big cities. Big prices. And Edinburgh is still relatively cheap.
    Why bring those cities into it? Just don't see how that adds anything to this debate. Especially in the case of New York and London, these are two of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. We're talking about Edinburgh here, where a lot of us grew up.

    I am 21 years old, working full time and do not earn the 'average' wage as some on here assume most people do earn, this average is bumped up by people earning vast sums of money, there will be a lot more people earning below the average than there are earning above it.

  8. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott_b_ View Post
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    They're currently building new flats and houses in Muirhouse, which recently come up as the 3rd most deprived area in Scotland. A new 2 bed flat on Pennywell Road starts at £140,000 to over £150,000 and a 2 bedroom semi is £185,000, ridiculously over-priced for the area.

    With regards to your point about a £110k flat - the mortgage on that will be very little however how do you save up £11,000 for the deposit then another £2/3k for fee's while paying nearly £700 to rent a one bed on Easter Road.
    I dont know you, and i dont know your circumstances, nor do i know those of the person who bought the 110k flat in oxgangs.

    But there will always be a line somewhere that people below will struggle to buy a property- if you are clearing 1800 a month, you could probably stick a couple of hundred a month away to save - less than that you would probably struggle.

    I dont know, maybe some people have to accept that they wont be able to afford to buy a house? Or only can afford to if they are a couple? Or inve they are in their thirties and habe saved for years?

    There isnt always a pleasant or palatable reality - crashing house prices woyld penalise everyone who has scraped together enough - is that really a fairer way to do it?

    The sad reality of life is that money buys you options, and so those with less have fewer options. We are all the sum of our parents choices, our choices (maybe even grandparents) and if some of those habe been bad, people will often have to pay consequences. It may not be fair, or just, or a good thing, but its just reality.

    Building council houses would be a good idea to help with rent, but unless we were selling them again, it wont help people on low incomes affors expensive homes. And these would be on peripheral land because that is the cheapest land.

    The only way to break the chain of poor life opportunities is by blind luck, working harder, or working smarter and educating people so that they dont earn low incomes.

    The state absolutely has a role in that to offer people the educational opportunities to do that - this country has free statw education all the way to degree level, and also fdee college education for more vocational careers (ties in with tge other thread on income tax and education).

    But in am expensive city, even those on way below average earnings in a council house will struggle to enjoy the 'soul' of the city as their purchasing power will be low.

    Again thats not right, or fair, but life isnt always right or fair. And the state can only do so much to level the playing field.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 21-12-2017 at 09:34 AM.

  9. #98
    Coaching Staff Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    It's the nature of the beast.

    Try buying in New York or Miami.

    Or London.

    Big cities. Big prices. And Edinburgh is still relatively cheap.
    Yes but beasts can be altered.


    P.s. I’m not proud of what I did there.

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonder1875 View Post
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    Why bring those cities into it? Just don't see how that adds anything to this debate. Especially in the case of New York and London, these are two of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. We're talking about Edinburgh here, where a lot of us grew up.

    I am 21 years old, working full time and do not earn the 'average' wage as some on here assume most people do earn, this average is bumped up by people earning vast sums of money, there will be a lot more people earning below the average than there are earning above it.
    To be fair, i would not assume any 21 year old earns average wage. I would imagine most people dont until they are in their late 20s.

    As a 21 year old, do you expect to be able to buy a house outright, on your own, in Edinburgh?

  11. #100
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scott_b_ View Post
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    They're currently building new flats and houses in Muirhouse, which recently come up as the 3rd most deprived area in Scotland. A new 2 bed flat on Pennywell Road starts at £140,000 to over £150,000 and a 2 bedroom semi is £185,000, ridiculously over-priced for the area.

    With regards to your point about a £110k flat - the mortgage on that will be very little however how do you save up £11,000 for the deposit then another £2/3k for fee's while paying nearly £700 to rent a one bed on Easter Road.
    Unless I'm mistaken some of the Pennywell flats are also available as shared equity in that you could buy 80% and rent the 20% which would allow first time buyers onto the property ladder (the same is happening here in Perth)

    One problem, if it is a problem, is there seems to be a generation who expect to have the best and therefore will look down on Pennywell as below them and complain they cant afford Newhaven or Leith. My first flat (Grangemouth) was a 1 bed with no bathroom and I couldn't get a building society mortgage and had to rely on the Council to lend at 2% above the mortgage rate at the time of 10% (doubt that still happens) I got improvement grants to upgrade it (doubt that still happens). sold it 5 years later, did the same with an old cottage in Falkirk also with no bathroom, before eventually moving to my current home. Each time the houses were needing a lot done to them which I was willing to put the graft into. As I say, now it seems to me that people wanting onto the property ladder don't want to have to put in the work and want it all to be perfect from the beginning.
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  12. #101
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    My sister in law is always moaning about not being able to buy a house, yet spends a fortune on going out at the weekends and on clothes.

    Not saying that's common but bet their are a fair few like that, tried to help her by budgeting and saving in a Lifetime ISA but she was not interested. So some people just want but are not prepared to make the sacrifice.

  13. #102
    @hibs.net private member Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yonder1875 View Post
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    Why bring those cities into it? Just don't see how that adds anything to this debate. Especially in the case of New York and London, these are two of the most expensive cities in the world to live in. We're talking about Edinburgh here, where a lot of us grew up.

    I am 21 years old, working full time and do not earn the 'average' wage as some on here assume most people do earn, this average is bumped up by people earning vast sums of money, there will be a lot more people earning below the average than there are earning above it.
    Ok. Compare Edinburgh to other European capital cities then, excluding London if you prefer.

    Edinburgh has a parliament and a significant financial centre.

    People want to live there. It's bound to be more expensive.
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  14. #103
    It’s also a lot harder to get money when I bought my flat I took out 100% mortgage from the BofS the flat was 33k I was probably only earning around 14k

  15. #104
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I dont know you, and i dont know your circumstances, nor do i know those of the person who bought the 110k flat in oxgangs.

    But there will always be a line somewhere that people below will struggle to buy a property- if you are clearing 1800 a month, you could probably stick a couple of hundred a month away to save - less than that you would probably struggle.

    I dont know, maybe some people have to accept that they wont be able to afford to buy a house? Or only can afford to if they are a couple? Or inve they are in their thirties and habe saved for years?

    There isnt always a pleasant or palatable reality - crashing house prices woyld penalise everyone who has scraped together enough - is that really a fairer way to do it?

    The sad reality of life is that money buys you options, and so those with less have fewer options. We are all the sum of our parents choices, our choices (maybe even grandparents) and if some of those habe been bad, people will often have to pay consequences. It may not be fair, or just, or a good thing, but its just reality.

    Building council houses would be a good idea to help with rent, but unless we were selling them again, it wont help people on low incomes affors expensive homes. And these would be on peripheral land because that is the cheapest land.

    The only way to break the chain of poor life opportunities is by blind luck, working harder, or working smarter and educating people so that they dont earn low incomes.

    The state absolutely has a role in that to offer people the educational opportunities to do that - this country has free statw education all the way to degree level, and also fdee college education for more vocational careers (ties in with tge other thread on income tax and education).

    But in am expensive city, even those on way below average earnings in a council house will struggle to enjoy the 'soul' of the city as their purchasing power will be low.

    Again thats not right, or fair, but life isnt always right or fair. And the state can only do so much to level the playing field.
    They'd be penalised by being forced to stay in their own home which they obviously liked enough to buy. Better that than paying ridiculous rents with no prospect of getting on the ladder.

  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    They'd be penalised by being forced to stay in their own home which they obviously liked enough to buy. Better that than paying ridiculous rents with no prospect of getting on the ladder.
    And the prospect of negative equity, of paying thousands to mortgage companies in interest in moetgage payments that are too high.

    Also what about thosd first time buyers who did scrape enoufh to but a wee one bed property, and woyls find a crash in values leaving them with no (or negative) equity to afford a deposit on a new, bigher homw as they have a family? Its funny how i get accused of having an 'im alright, jack' attitude, but plenty of 'progressives' are quixk to dismiss problems to untols thousands in order to make their own lives easier. 'I cant afford a house, so lets ruin other people's lives so that i can' - hardly a laudable position.

    A slowdown perhaps, but a crash is a bad thing. Lest we forget how the financial collapse actually came about in the first place.

    Ultimately i doubt it will happen anyway, a city with booming economy, strong and world renowned universities, and a high standard of living will likely always be well above the average, by definition.

  17. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    And the prospect of negative equity, of paying thousands to mortgage companies in interest in moetgage payments that are too high.

    Also what about thosd first time buyers who did scrape enoufh to but a wee one bed property, and woyls find a crash in values leaving them with no (or negative) equity to afford a deposit on a new, bigher homw as they have a family? Its funny how i get accused of having an 'im alright, jack' attitude, but plenty of 'progressives' are quixk to dismiss problems to untols thousands in order to make their lives easier. 'I cant afford a house, so lets ruin other people's lives so that i can' - hardly a laudable position.

    A slowdown perhaps, but a crash is a bad thing. Lest we forget how the financial collapse actually came about in the first place.

    Ultimately i doubt it will happen anyway, a city with booming economy, strong and world renowned universities, and a high standard of living will likely always be well above the average, by definition.
    Having disagreed with you on your earlier point, I actually completely agree with you on the point you make above.

    The infighting distracts us all from the real issue which I see to be 2nd/3rd home owners, making money whilst making preventing others from getting on the ladder.

    Sounds a bit like the Hibs loyalty points scheme...

  18. #107
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Its funny how i get accused of having an 'im alright, jack' attitude, but plenty of 'progressives' are quixk to dismiss problems to untols thousands in order to make their own lives easier. 'I cant afford a house, so lets ruin other people's lives so that i can' - hardly a laudable position.

    .
    Agree, funny that but probably don't see it that way.

  19. #108
    Coaching Staff Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by beensaidbefore View Post
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    The infighting distracts us all from the real issue which I see to be 2nd/3rd home owners, making money whilst making preventing others from getting on the ladder.

    Sounds a bit like the Hibs loyalty points scheme...
    Indeed and without them, there would be no “bubble” to burst. I don’t believe using people’s negative equity as a justification for these high prices is on either. It would be tough on some but it’s not beyond the wit of man to devise some sort of long-term compensation package for those who genuinely deserve it, not investors.

    Some of the self-centred reactions are unsurprising. Nothing really to do with the posters, it’s just evidence of how the financial aspect has taken over from the primary purpose of property...to offer shelter.

  20. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Indeed and without them, there would be no “bubble” to burst. I don’t believe using people’s negative equity as a justification for these high prices is on either. It would be tough on some but it’s not beyond the wit of man to devise some sort of long-term compensation package for those who genuinely deserve it, not investors.

    Some of the self-centred reactions are unsurprising. Nothing really to do with the posters, it’s just evidence of how the financial aspect has taken over from the primary purpose of property...to offer shelter.
    Totally agree. Those who see families having a roof over their head as an opportunity for profit are merely a symptom of the system. Profiteers, expropriators; let me get my collection of Proudhon here, comrade. Property is indeed theft.

    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 21-12-2017 at 02:40 PM.
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  21. #110
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    And the prospect of negative equity, of paying thousands to mortgage companies in interest in moetgage payments that are too high.

    Also what about thosd first time buyers who did scrape enoufh to but a wee one bed property, and woyls find a crash in values leaving them with no (or negative) equity to afford a deposit on a new, bigher homw as they have a family? Its funny how i get accused of having an 'im alright, jack' attitude, but plenty of 'progressives' are quixk to dismiss problems to untols thousands in order to make their own lives easier. 'I cant afford a house, so lets ruin other people's lives so that i can' - hardly a laudable position.

    A slowdown perhaps, but a crash is a bad thing. Lest we forget how the financial collapse actually came about in the first place.

    Ultimately i doubt it will happen anyway, a city with booming economy, strong and world renowned universities, and a high standard of living will likely always be well above the average, by definition.
    I'm old enough to remember when people bought a house to live in and didn't know about equity. They knew what they'd paid for it, how much they'd borrowed and how long it would take to pay it back. You paid a 10% deposit, borrowed 3 times your salary and you had a home. Then came Thatcher and it all went to hell.

  22. #111
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    I'm old enough to remember when people bought a house to live in and didn't know about equity. They knew what they'd paid for it, how much they'd borrowed and how long it would take to pay it back. You paid a 10% deposit, borrowed 3 times your salary and you had a home. Then came Thatcher and it all went to hell.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    I'm old enough to remember when people bought a house to live in and didn't know about equity. They knew what they'd paid for it, how much they'd borrowed and how long it would take to pay it back. You paid a 10% deposit, borrowed 3 times your salary and you had a home. Then came Thatcher and it all went to hell.
    Yeah, and millions of working class people got the opportunity to own their own home for the first time.

  24. #113
    God bless Margaret Thatcher

  25. #114
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah, and millions of working class people got the opportunity to own their own home for the first time.
    But what pf the long term consequences of selling off public housing e.g. a chronic shortage for future generations? Why did the Thatcher government forbid councils from using the income of council house sales to build new council houses? A far better way of helping people to buy would have been an assistance programme for mortgages, but don't sell off homes which were built at public expense for those who can't buy or who choose not to buy. It was short-termism at its worst, driven by an ideological hatred of public ownership.
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  26. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by pollution View Post
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    God bless Margaret Thatcher
    **** off
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  27. #116
    @hibs.net private member Bishop Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I know plenty of techers and nurses that habe recently bought homes in Edinburgh.

    I think there is a differencd between literally being forced to move to the sticks because you cant afford a house in Edinburgh (are the prices really that much lower that its tge difference between no house and a house?) and people choosing to move out to get a bigger house, or the house they want with a garden etc.

    As with everything in life its about choices and priorities - and in amy city, there will be a trade-off between space and location - i know people who choose to live in a flat in order to stay quite central, and i know people who moved to east Lothian to get a 4 or 5 bedroom house.

    Not being able to get exactly what you want, exactly where you want it is a different thing to being forced out.

    Im mot saying thats the case for everyone, but i know so many people with normal jobs that habe bought houses / flats in edinburgh for me to think its impossible. Difficult, yeah, but life is a series of sacrifices and choices we all make.

    And those advocating a price crash - how is that not a selfish wish? How many families would struggle as a result of that happening?
    I'm not talking about staying in Barnton or the Grange. Properties there have been the domain of the rich since they were built.

    As for everything being "about choices and priorities", you have more of these choices if you have money from parents/relatives to help with your deposit. Existing wealth gives you choices and everyone should be able to afford a home in the city of their birth if they have a full time job and I'm talking renting, not necessarily buying.

    As for the price crash, I'm being selfish on behalf of the next generation. Wouldn't effect me as I've not borrowed against the unearned equity my property has accrued through no work of my own. Lets get interest rates up to 5% again.
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  28. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee View Post
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    I'm not talking about staying in Barnton or the Grange. Properties there have been the domain of the rich since they were built.

    As for everything being "about choices and priorities", you have more of these choices if you have money from parents/relatives to help with your deposit. Existing wealth gives you choices and everyone should be able to afford a home in the city of their birth if they have a full time job and I'm talking renting, not necessarily buying.

    As for the price crash, I'm being selfish on behalf of the next generation. Wouldn't effect me as I've not borrowed against the unearned equity my property has accrued through no work of my own. Lets get interest rates up to 5% again.
    I think i pretty much said a similar thing? Luck will always play a part in life, and of course existing wealth plays a big part in that. What are you suggesting, punative tax rates, forced appropriation, compulsory purchase?

    Well you can advocate for your price crash all you want, no party will ever do it because people wont ever vote for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    But what pf the long term consequences of selling off public housing e.g. a chronic shortage for future generations? Why did the Thatcher government forbid councils from using the income of council house sales to build new council houses? A far better way of helping people to buy would have been an assistance programme for mortgages, but don't sell off homes which were built at public expense for those who can't buy or who choose not to buy. It was short-termism at its worst, driven by an ideological hatred of public ownership.
    Possibly, but it was still a good policy that gave millions a chance to have a home of their own - and gave wealth to millions that they couldnt have previously dreamed of, and that years of a pseudo socialist government had conspicuously failed to deliver that same working class.

    Could the money have been used better? Of courss, but thats like claiming north sea oil was / is a bad thing because its legacy wasnt used properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I remember sitting in the Lochindaal Hotel on Islay a few years back and hearing the reaction from a couple of young locals when a visitor from Glasgow exclaimed that a house in the village was selling for ‘only £185 000’ . It wasn’t positive.......

    Dislike of incomers isn't necessarily prejudice. There's sometimes a very good reason for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Totally agree. Those who see families having a roof over their head as an opportunity for profit are merely a symptom of the system. Profiteers, expropriators; let me get my collection of Proudhon here, comrade. Property is indeed theft.


    I own my house and car. Who did I steal them from?

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