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  1. #1

    Has Edinburgh lost Its Soul?


    Commoditised andcommercialised New Year celebrations, born and bred Edinburgher`s being priced out of the city by the swarm of southerners purchasing all property, touristsbeing put first, traditional working class boozers turned into generic coffeeshops and mundane middle -class "bars", gentrification of areas likeLeith…………..


    Does anyone else (ornot) think the city is soulless these days?


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    Quote Originally Posted by Edinburgher View Post
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    Commoditised andcommercialised New Year celebrations, born and bred Edinburgher`s being priced out of the city by the swarm of southerners purchasing all property, touristsbeing put first, traditional working class boozers turned into generic coffeeshops and mundane middle -class "bars", gentrification of areas likeLeith…………..


    Does anyone else (ornot) think the city is soulless these days?
    By southerners, do you mean English? 😀

    Im a born and bred edinburgher, i own a property. Maybe you are just not working hard enough?

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    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edinburgher View Post
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    Commoditised andcommercialised New Year celebrations, born and bred Edinburgher`s being priced out of the city by the swarm of southerners purchasing all property, touristsbeing put first, traditional working class boozers turned into generic coffeeshops and mundane middle -class "bars", gentrification of areas likeLeith…………..


    Does anyone else (ornot) think the city is soulless these days?
    Definitely. You can add cheap rubbish architecture and unfettered 'local' supermarkets that price out established businesses, to that list.

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    We really need someone to come along and make Edinburgh great again.

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    Totally agree and it's on the outskirts as well. We wanted to build a small bistro and the prices that were getting quotes were a massive massive jump on what we were given a few years previously, this included council 'consultant' work..we were then told unofficially wink wink that the land has already been earmarked for development by a chain.

    Seriously, what a joke.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wembley67 View Post
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    Totally agree and it's on the outskirts as well. We wanted to build a small bistro and the prices that were getting quotes were a massive massive jump on what we were given a few years previously, this included council 'consultant' work..we were then told unofficially wink wink that the land has already been earmarked for development by a chain.

    Seriously, what a joke.
    A bistro? That's part of the problem. Whit's wrang wae a chippy?
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    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    By southerners, do you mean English? 😀

    Im a born and bred edinburgher, i own a property. Maybe you are just not working hard enough?
    I hope that's an attempt at humour.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    I hope that's an attempt at humour.
    I am actually quite surprised at the reaction to the OP.

    Blaming edinburgh's 'ills' (or success) on a 'swarm of soitherners' - replace southerners with immigrants or blacks or irish, and the reaction is totally different.

    But it seems that clear racism is allowed because its only anti-English?

    So no, my post wasnt a joke.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I am actually quite surprised at the reaction to the OP.

    Blaming edinburgh's 'ills' (or success) on a 'swarm of soitherners' - replace southerners with immigrants or blacks or irish, and the reaction is totally different.

    But it seems that clear racism is allowed because its only anti-English?

    So no, my post wasnt a joke.
    Im guessing his objection to your post was saying another poster couldn't live in the town because he wasn't working hard enough, which is the kind of thing a massive throbbing bellend would write.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Im guessing his objection to your post was saying another poster couldn't live in the town because he wasn't working hard enough, which is the kind of thing a massive throbbing bellend would write.
    As opposed to blaming a swarm of immigrants for the problem? Which is something a BNP type would write.

    And you can stick your veiled insults. Didnt think such things were the way we did things around here.And all in the name of you defending a racist OP.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 20-12-2017 at 07:52 AM.

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    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    As opposed to blaming a swarm of immigrants for the problem? Which is something a BNP type would write.

    And you can stick your veiled insults. Didnt think such things were the way we did things around here.And all in the name of you defending a racist OP.
    I think you've missed what is happening here in Internet world. You insulted the POSTER, by suggesting he's not working hard enough to afford an Edinburgh house. That's not OK. I then insulted your POST, which is the kind of thing normally written by a massive throbbing bellend. You may see it as a narrow line between the two, but that's how it works. You might be a charming character in real life, but you need to try harder to make that clear from your posts. I will continue to insult your posts until they stop being so stupid and offensive. Have a Nice Day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    I think you've missed what is happening here in Internet world. You insulted the POSTER, by suggesting he's not working hard enough to afford an Edinburgh house. That's not OK. I then insulted your POST, which is the kind of thing normally written by a massive throbbing bellend. You may see it as a narrow line between the two, but that's how it works. You might be a charming character in real life, but you need to try harder to make that clear from your posts. I will continue to insult your posts until they stop being so stupid and offensive. Have a Nice Day.
    So you are allowed to say i need to try harder in your post, but im not allowed to say someone blaming immigrants for not being able to get a house might need to work harder in my post?

    I will have a nice day ta, and you can go back to your 'swarm of immigrants' bashing.

    All on the messageboard of a club founded by am earlier 'swarm' of immigrants who were similarly maligned and blamed by 'native edinburghers' for any percieved problems. Ironic eh.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 20-12-2017 at 08:30 AM.

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    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I am actually quite surprised at the reaction to the OP.

    Blaming edinburgh's 'ills' (or success) on a 'swarm of soitherners' - replace southerners with immigrants or blacks or irish, and the reaction is totally different.

    But it seems that clear racism is allowed because its only anti-English?

    So no, my post wasnt a joke.
    The OP clearly wasn't being racist. He was highlighting the housing bubble in Edinburgh, similar to that which exists in other desirable cities, most notably London. People are buying second homes which are often empty most of the time, so forcing up housing prices and making them unaffordable to the local population. Pointing out that many of the buyers are English is no more racist than highlighting that many London second homes are owned by Russians and Saudis. It doesn't matter where the buyers are from; the consequence is the same: people forced out of the places where they have always lived.

    Your comment that the OP only needs to work harder to overcome the problem was very crass. You have no idea what his circumstances are.
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    Lol, I see Bollah is on form as per usual.

    In regards Edinburgh, definitely. As an out of towner Edinburgh used to be a bit of an adventure where the city centre in particular was quite a nice place to be. I no longer see that as the case, the shopping is rubbish, its packed with tourists, the prices tend to be on the higher end of the scale (even for something as simple as a pint of Tennants). As you head towards the outer areas it becomes dirty, smelly and generally not very nice. M mum went into the city to get some Christmas presents and usually makes a day of it even she was complaining about what its like now and shes not even close to being as cynical as me. I told her to try Glasgow for a change as that still has some of the 'charm' about it.

    With everything Edinburgh has going for it such as the festival and new year the locals will suffer as prices rise and demand for property becomes bigger. I don't think the council help to be honest, they know where the money is and its not by providing services to Joe Bloggs from Niddrie or wester hailes.

    How many coffee and sandwich shops does a city need? I saw an old London bus yesterday that drives around making coffee for people WTF?

    Congestion is a big problem in Edinburgh, Again the council don't help with this, and Edinburgh has some very narrow streets that some lorry's and busses should be considered re-routing. The traffic lights are out of sync and pedestrian crosses every 40 yards on some roads. I admit to being part of the problem by commuting in and out of the City by car but even with traffic the journey takes less than half the time by car than it does by public transport. But I recognise the problem and I have a medium term plan in mind so I would no longer have to commute like I do now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    The OP clearly wasn't being racist. He was highlighting the housing bubble in Edinburgh, similar to that which exists in other desirable cities, most notably London. People are buying second homes which are often empty most of the time, so forcing up housing prices and making them unaffordable to the local population. Pointing out that many of the buyers are English is no more racist than highlighting that many London second homes are owned by Russians and Saudis. It doesn't matter where the buyers are from; the consequence is the same: people forced out of the places where they have always lived.

    Your comment that the OP only needs to work harder to overcome the problem was very crass. You have no idea what his circumstances are.
    Relplace the word southerners with blacks. Or Poles.

    Im certain you wouldnt be defending it then.

    Leaving that aside, it is an ill-informed bitter rant that is just not true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    Im guessing his objection to your post was saying another poster couldn't live in the town because he wasn't working hard enough, which is the kind of thing a massive throbbing bellend would write.
    If there were a like button on this site that would be my 1st like.

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    Well this thread took a turn quickly... poor selection of words by the OP at one point has diluted a reasonable question about Edinburgh. I don't think he was intending to be racist, and I think that's telling from the fact that most didn't really pick up on it.

    I wasnt born here (I swarmed from a northern direction though) but have lived here for 8 years and love Edinburgh. I am pro gentrification of areas like Leith - it makes them nicer. Although there is certainly some questionable architecture as noted above, the eastern area of princes street looking out over to the mile has an almost perfect 360° view of brilliant architecture - but then there is a massive TKMaxx sign and modern looking offices which takes away from it.
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    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Relplace the word southerners with blacks. Or Poles.

    Im certain you wouldnt be defending it then.

    Leaving that aside, it is an ill-informed bitter rant that is just not true.
    I think you're reading too much into what he said, personally. I didn't take it as racist; the issue is the housing bubble, not what/who is creating it. Whether the owners of these second/third/fourth homes are English, black or Polish isn't the problem; it's the fact local people are forced to move away. That's how I read it.

    I would say that perhaps he could have worded it better, as it's open to interpretation. However, I didn't get the sense the OP was being anti-English as such.
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 20-12-2017 at 08:51 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    I think you're reading too much into what he said, personally. I didn't take it as racist; the issue is the housing bubble, not what/who is creating it. Whether the owners of these second/third/fourth homes are English, black or Polish isn't the problem; it's the fact local people are forced to move away. That's how I read it.
    Fair enough 🖒

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Relplace the word southerners with blacks. Or Poles.

    Im certain you wouldnt be defending it then.

    Leaving that aside, it is an ill-informed bitter rant that is just not true.
    The point is people from wealthier areas I.e. London. But just as much Russia and the middle East are buying property in Edinburgh for vastly over inflated prices. Meaning people who have lived here all their lives and do work hard are priced out of their own city. They might still be able to pay their way, just, but the quality of their life takes a hit as they spend more and more money on rent/mortgage and council tax because the prices have been driven up.

    What the OP is clearly saying is it's not fair people are being priced out of Edinburgh having lived and worked here all their days. I doubt the OP is racist either he could have said northerners if folk from Aberdeen were doing it. Imagine everyone in Edinburgh started buying second homes in Livingston and the locals struggled to afford to live there? Would that be fair?

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    Quote Originally Posted by samcrowe View Post
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    The point is people from wealthier areas I.e. London. But just as much Russia and the middle East are buying property in Edinburgh for vastly over inflated prices. Meaning people who have lived here all their lives and do work hard are priced out of their own city. They might still be able to pay their way, just, but the quality of their life takes a hit as they spend more and more money on rent/mortgage and council tax because the prices have been driven up.

    What the OP is clearly saying is it's not fair people are being priced out of Edinburgh having lived and worked here all their days. I doubt the OP is racist either he could have said northerners if folk from Aberdeen were doing it. Imagine everyone in Edinburgh started buying second homes in Livingston and the locals struggled to afford to live there? Would that be fair?
    Ok, i dont agree thats what the initial post was saying, but leaving that to one side, what do you want to do?

    Everything you describe are signs of success. Do we want a less booming local economy and to bring unemployment back? Do we want to restrict immigration and inward investment? Do we want to give immigrants fewer rights to own porperty than those born here? Do we want fewer students and / or tourists?

    I remember Edinburgh in the 80s - run down, 3rd world estates, drugs, HIV, huge empty gap sites of undeveloped land across the city centre. I dont remember people thinking it was that great back then.

    Other than this being a thread for folk to vent about how the good old days were better, what do you / others want to see?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I am actually quite surprised at the reaction to the OP.

    Blaming edinburgh's 'ills' (or success) on a 'swarm of soitherners' - replace southerners with immigrants or blacks or irish, and the reaction is totally different.

    But it seems that clear racism is allowed because its only anti-English?

    So no, my post wasnt a joke.
    'Southerners' doesn't equate to 'English' to me, but that's how you've read the post I guess.

    I spoke with a real-estate investment practitioner a few weeks ago on a train between Glasgow and London - she was originally living and working in London, but her company decided to diversify their portfolio and buy elsewhere. Property prices in the northern parts of England are considerably lower than in London, so wealthy investors and realtors were literally able to buy entire rows/estates of houses and turn that into rental income. This is in smaller towns, where infrastructure isn't fantastic.

    Now take Edinburgh...it has the highest property prices in Scotland, with impressive urban infrastructure to support it. It has a financial hub. To those living in southern parts of the UK, that have a decent mass of wealth, it represents a solid investment opportunity, because despite having comaratively high property prices compared to the rest of Scotland, it's still incredibly affordable. Given that, combined with the available industry and infrastructure, and it becomes a very marketable move.

    There's no racism in that line of argument, just basic economics. Just in the same way that when London was more affordable, overseas investment from Russia, the Middle East, Far East etc bought up a lot of property and totally flooded the market with overpriced rental properties. As London continued to attract more and more people, property portfolios expanded accordingly, as external owners viewed it as an opportunity to make a healthy income.

    It DOES have the potential to harm a location (and it's interesting to read some of that from posters here who are clearly Edinburgh natives) by making housing stock unaffordable to people who grow up there, because they can't compete with the available resources external investors have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    'Southerners' doesn't equate to 'English' to me, but that's how you've read the post I guess.

    I spoke with a real-estate investment practitioner a few weeks ago on a train between Glasgow and London - she was originally living and working in London, but her company decided to diversify their portfolio and buy elsewhere. Property prices in the northern parts of England are considerably lower than in London, so wealthy investors and realtors were literally able to buy entire rows/estates of houses and turn that into rental income. This is in smaller towns, where infrastructure isn't fantastic.

    Now take Edinburgh...it has the highest property prices in Scotland, with impressive urban infrastructure to support it. It has a financial hub. To those living in southern parts of the UK, that have a decent mass of wealth, it represents a solid investment opportunity, because despite having comaratively high property prices compared to the rest of Scotland, it's still incredibly affordable. Given that, combined with the available industry and infrastructure, and it becomes a very marketable move.

    There's no racism in that line of argument, just basic economics. Just in the same way that when London was more affordable, overseas investment from Russia, the Middle East, Far East etc bought up a lot of property and totally flooded the market with overpriced rental properties. As London continued to attract more and more people, property portfolios expanded accordingly, as external owners viewed it as an opportunity to make a healthy income.

    It DOES have the potential to harm a location (and it's interesting to read some of that from posters here who are clearly Edinburgh natives) by making housing stock unaffordable to people who grow up there, because they can't compete with the available resources external investors have.
    Of course there is potential to harm, but that is true of everything. Go into one of the OPs traditional, non generic pubs in one of the salt of the earth housing schemes and you will also have the potential to be harmed.

    Investment is a good thing - Edinburgh is a booming and successful city. That should be celebrated.

    That of course doesnt mean that the Council shouldnt be trying to help edinburghers, of course they should, but that is easier said than done. Curbs on property speculation maybe?

    But ultimately Edinburgh probably isnt in a pricing bubble, as itnis based on solid fundamentals - high demand, limited supply.

    I would suggest limiting demand, caused by the aforementioned swarm of immigrants into the city is not desirable.

    Instead, increasing supply wouls seem the way to go, but that will jnvolve the less valuable areas being on the outskirts.

    In the same way that Oxgangs, Gilmerton, Niddrie etc were built on what were outskirts.

    And im curious, what does 'southerner' mean to you?

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    Yes...and a lot of it is to do with property prices.

    On the run but in the long run the real victim will be young peoples mental health because a house is considered an investment just as much as it is a shelter.

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    As an ex resident of the city every time I come through for a night out I love it. The city centre has improved massively and if the council had not developed the city we would lose thousands of tourists and millions from the citys economy which would mean less jobs of the residents. Edinburgh should be celebrated as a fantastic city to work, rest and play in

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Of course there is potential to harm, but that is true of everything. Go into one of the OPs traditional, non generic pubs in one of the salt of the earth housing schemes and you will also have the potential to be harmed.

    Investment is a good thing - Edinburgh is a booming and successful city. That should be celebrated.


    That of course doesnt mean that the Council shouldnt be trying to help edinburghers, of course they should, but that is easier said than done. Curbs on property speculation maybe?

    But ultimately Edinburgh probably isnt in a pricing bubble, as itnis based on solid fundamentals - high demand, limited supply.

    I would suggest limiting demand, caused by the aforementioned swarm of immigrants into the city is not desirable.

    Instead, increasing supply wouls seem the way to go, but that will jnvolve the less valuable areas being on the outskirts.

    In the same way that Oxgangs, Gilmerton, Niddrie etc were built on what were outskirts.

    And im curious, what does 'southerner' mean to you?
    It's a booming and successful city for some e.g. property speculators, as this thread discusses. For many it's getting increasingly difficult to survive, and keeping a roof over one's head is fundamental to that. The shocking rise in homelessness and food banks are indicators which suggest it isn't booming for a lot of people. There are many factors in this of course: employment, wages, education, social services etc; the growing lack of affordable housing is but one. One thing we definitely need is a massive housebuilding plan for the public sector. The UK has one million people, a good proportion of them children, living in temporary accommodation such as bed and breakfasts because of the chronic housing shortage. Slum landlords in the private sector who are filling the gap, is another issue to address. Hundreds of thousands of new homes in the public sector will reduce demand, and thus prices, in the private sector.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ok, i dont agree thats what the initial post was saying, but leaving that to one side, what do you want to do?

    Everything you describe are signs of success. Do we want a less booming local economy and to bring unemployment back? Do we want to restrict immigration and inward investment? Do we want to give immigrants fewer rights to own porperty than those born here? Do we want fewer students and / or tourists?

    I remember Edinburgh in the 80s - run down, 3rd world estates, drugs, HIV, huge empty gap sites of undeveloped land across the city centre. I dont remember people thinking it was that great back then.

    Other than this being a thread for folk to vent about how the good old days were better, what do you / others want to see?
    I'm all for immigration and a mixed society. but as long as it doesn't negatively affect the current residents. There should be some sort of restriction on non Edinburgh residents buying homes he's just to make profit or for them to lie empty. Give Edinburgh residents who are renting and do not own priority rather than someone from elsewhere with plenty cash just buying it. I'm not talking about immigrants rights the point was people buying property as a 2nd home.

    You mention Edinburghs past problems, the people in charge should help people in this situation and give them the support they need to make Edinburgh a better place. Everyone talks in Britain about wanting to bring through young Scottish players and not have to rely on foreign players. Cities can be like that too. Instead of spending all the money making Edinburgh look good to people from outside the city, spend it on the people in it and they will prosper and the city will look better from that.

    Do you think the current rental situation in Edinburgh is fair?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    It's a booming and successful city for some e.g. property speculators, as this thread discusses. For many it's getting increasingly difficult to survive, and keeping a roof over one's head is fundamental to that. The shocking rise in homelessness and food banks are indicators which suggest it isn't booming for a lot of people. There are many factors in this of course: employment, wages, education, social services etc; the growing lack of affordable housing is but one. One thing we definitely need is a massive housebuilding plan for the public sector. The UK has one million people, a good proportion of them children, living in temporary accommodation such as bed and breakfasts because of the chronic housing shortage. Slum landlords in the private sector who are filling the gap, is another issue to address. Hundreds of thousands of new homes in the public sector will reduce demand, and thus prices, in the private sector.
    Dont disagree with this - build more houses, keep Edinburgh growing and thriving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Of course there is potential to harm, but that is true of everything. Go into one of the OPs traditional, non generic pubs in one of the salt of the earth housing schemes and you will also have the potential to be harmed.

    Investment is a good thing - Edinburgh is a booming and successful city. That should be celebrated.

    That of course doesnt mean that the Council shouldnt be trying to help edinburghers, of course they should, but that is easier said than done. Curbs on property speculation maybe?

    But ultimately Edinburgh probably isnt in a pricing bubble, as itnis based on solid fundamentals - high demand, limited supply.

    I would suggest limiting demand, caused by the aforementioned swarm of immigrants into the city is not desirable.

    Instead, increasing supply wouls seem the way to go, but that will jnvolve the less valuable areas being on the outskirts.

    In the same way that Oxgangs, Gilmerton, Niddrie etc were built on what were outskirts.

    And im curious, what does 'southerner' mean to you?
    Given the context here, someone living/working in the south of England (which you'll know yourself is a complete melting pot).

    It's an 'economic' definition - people who work and live in the areas in and around London have a lot more capital to invest in property elsewhere, which is partly what the OP describes.

    I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that immigration isn't a bad thing - but then I also don't think that's what the OP was suggesting either. He/she have simply identified an external mechanism that's impacting the internal economy/housing situation in the city.

  31. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    Given the context here, someone living/working in the south of England (which you'll know yourself is a complete melting pot).

    It's an 'economic' definition - people who work and live in the areas in and around London have a lot more capital to invest in property elsewhere, which is partly what the OP describes.

    I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment that immigration isn't a bad thing - but then I also don't think that's what the OP was suggesting either. He/she have simply identified an external mechanism that's impacting the internal economy/housing situation in the city.
    Fair enough, i dont agree thats what the OP meant, but yours is as reasonable a guess as mine.

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