Will the chants ever be banned rather than “banned”?

[John_R_Corbett]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Hibs are one of the bigger teams who won't go for it.
We would have been paying a big fine for our cup final crimes had strict liability not been rejected and we would have all been moaning about getting picked on by the GFA

We wouldn't be getting picked on as much two certain other teams, they'd be getting picked on every week if it was applied properly and that's why we don't have it.

[madhatter]

The irony of the strict liability and this debate is that if enough fans do the wrong thing then it doesn't matter...we wouldn't apply the rules and the law. That's what I'm annoyed at, we can't even categorically say what is wrong. Racism is wrong but bigotry is wrongish (kind of... at least what is written about it claims as such but actions suggest otherwise).

If a whole stand each let off a flare at every ground in Scotland, would every club close that stand or play closed door matches for a period of time? Don't think so, there would be a review of what the "norm" is and they'd all ask very politely that it stopped. 3-4 fans let of a flare and they are banned. Justice and morals is a numbers game, if you want to do something unjust get a few thousand folk to so the same and you're largely fine.

[sauzee_4]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Hibs are one of the bigger teams who won't go for it.
We would have been paying a big fine for our cup final crimes had strict liability not been rejected and we would have all been moaning about getting picked on by the GFA

We are speaking about points deductions though. Personally, I don't think a club fine is going to prevent the average fan invading the pitch/throwing a flair/singing a sectarian song. A points deduction might

[sauzee_4]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Every club who has a random dickhead who runs on the park, or sets off a flare, would be liable for action. Indeed, there is a case for saying that something like that poses a greater risk than some songs.

I think I've seen two flares thrown from Hibs fans in my 29 years of watching Hibs.

[Onion]

No serious action will be taken by Celtic or The Rangers Boards as religious hatred in the lifeblood of their clubs. If they endangered the "special atmosphere", their crowds would collapse, threatening revenue for media, TV companies and the football authorities.

Through their weekly inaction, the Police, courts and authorities have given tentative approval to the singing of offensive, sectarian and bigoted songs at matches. If other clubs fans REALLY want force the authorities to do something about it they can ... in protest, they could simply start singing offensive, sectarian, hate-filled songs.

Hibs & Hearts fans could reintroduce all those ditty's we used to chant/sing in the 70s. Aberdeen, Dundee, Killie, et al could pick, choose and make up new horrendous sectarian songs. Yes, it's extreme, yes, it would be uncomfortable for all us right-minded 21 century fans and yes, the SFA / SPFL would hammer all the smaller clubs first just because they can, but it is guaranteed to face the authorities hand.

[The Pointer]

What gets me is that the other mob on Sunday were singing equally, in my mind, offensive songs in support of terrorists and nobody says a thing. No boos, nothing, just get on with watching the game.

Two plooks on an *rse indeed.

[bigwheel]

so this might end up triggering another 10 pages on this...but here goes - honestly, I do not care what they chant - they are words of bigotry and hate - it reflects on them and no-one else. it affects their image across Scotland and beyond - they can bang on for me - does nothing good for them.

[CMurdoch]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That's quite a selfish outlook. The Hibs chant is a feeble (looked thru modern eyes) attempt at intimidation the whole "Rangers" culture is an attempt at keeping alive centuries of bigotry. They are hardly comparable taken in context of Scottish culture as a whole.

Yours is an intellectual argument. I'm a realist. The singers are a combination of 90 minute bigots and the intellectually challenged combined with a few nasties.

I made sure my children were brought up to be polite, compassionate and tolerant but I can't make everyone in Glasgow bring up their kids in the same way. My kids behaviour reflects well or badly on me, other kids behaviour doesn't.
Similarly I think we as Hibs supporters should try to ensure our fellow Hibs supporters behave in a decent manner.
Rangers & Celtic supporters behaviour isn't something we can easily influence. They embarrass themselves and their club.

I remember football supporters throwing golf balls, bottles of pish, and apples with razor blades in them, think I would rather take my chances with a horrible song.
Things have improved but they still have a fair way to go.

I am the same age as you and have lived through all the same things.
In all that time our football club has not seen fit to ban or even reduce the number of old firm supporters coming to our home and as such are complicit.
In effect they put money before morality.

[IlDiavola]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I dislike Celtic quite a bit but Rangers are on another level. When will their sectarian chants actually be punished? Surely they’ll be a lengthy investigation followed by 3500 arrests? Big fine for them? Hate Scotland and Scottish Football sometimes...can’t even come up with rules that we enforce. We get a warning before each match and their whole stand ignored it...

Handball isn’t handball.
Sectarian chant isn’t sectarian.

Football is corrupt and we all know it. It’s a worldwide issue but instead of ignoring it and trying to improve the game in our country, we become tribal and let the corruption run riot. Every club outside the old firm should genuinely start putting pressure on the SFA collectively but they won’t...

Sick of it.

P.S. A few Hibs players need to take a look at themselves as they let their teammates down tonight. McGeouch, Barker and Boyle were the best. The rest were so-so. Murray should’ve been hooked instead of Shaw. Rangers were there for the taking, they are worst team I’ve seen this season at ER.

Hearts?

[OxoHibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Yours is an intellectual argument. I'm a realist. The singers are a combination of 90 minute bigots and the intellectually challenged combined with a few nasties.

I made sure my children were brought up to be polite, compassionate and tolerant but I can't make everyone in Glasgow bring up their kids in the same way. My kids behaviour reflects well or badly on me, other kids behaviour doesn't.
Similarly I think we as Hibs supporters should try to ensure our fellow Hibs supporters behave in a decent manner.
Rangers & Celtic supporters behaviour isn't something we can easily influence. They embarrass themselves and their club.

I remember football supporters throwing golf balls, bottles of pish, and apples with razor blades in them, think I would rather take my chances with a horrible song.
Things have improved but they still have a fair way to go.

I am the same age as you and have lived through all the same things.
In all that time our football club has not seen fit to ban or even reduce the number of old firm supporters coming to our home and as such are complicit.
In effect they put money before morality.

. Great post sums it up perfectly for me

[madhatter]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Hearts?

As much as it saddens me to say so - Rangers were worse than Hearts. Hearts were probably 2nd on the Worse Performances list though. They were also very poor. Just shows how important it is to take our chances, we had more against Rangers than against Hearts yet we lose.

Apart from 5min spell, Rangers could barely pass the ball to each other.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Self policing doesn't work; pleas from the clubs to supporters haven't worked. We need strict liability in the domestic game. When sectarian behaviour hits the Old Firm in their pockets and costs them points, it will stop sharpish. The carrot has failed; we need the stick. The football authorities are guilty of moral cowardice on this issue, and perhaps it is time for individual clubs to ban their away fans, even if there's a financial hit. 2017 and we still have to endure their nonsense.

[Pretty Boy]

Anti Catholic sectarianism is routinely ignored in wider society in Scotland so why would football be any different?

Have a march that criticises Islam and the counter protesters are out in their hundreds and the politicians spout their faux outrage. Have an annual celebration of religious superiority complete with bigotry and sectarianism every July and neither of the above are anywhere to be seen. It's our culture and about freedom of expression don't you know.

[Lago]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

so this might end up triggering another 10 pages on this...but here goes - honestly, I do not care what they chant - they are words of bigotry and hate - it reflects on them and no-one else. it affects their image across Scotland and beyond - they can bang on for me - does nothing good for them.

What a sensible altitude and spot on. I've been watching Scottish football for 60+ years and they have never and will never change.

[pacorosssco]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Until any journalist dares to acknowledge it, nothing will change.

spiers did and lost job as result.

[Leith Green]

If the non old firm clubs had any sort of moral fibre then they would come out and ban the old firm fans from attending matches in their stadiums. The fact they dont is purely down to greed , as they dont want to lose the income that they generate. If it was say motherwells fans who sang hateful songs at easter road en masse time and time again then the club would ban their fans from the stadium. The fact they allow the old firm to do this speaks volumes, the non old firm clubs should be doing more to highlight the problem and take the necessary action to stop it happening in their stadiums.

[EastCalderHibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The last part of your post is bang on.

Everything seems to be focused on beating racism at the moment but in Scotland, sectarianism is a far worse problem in football than racism.

so its fine to call us Fenian bassas but dont call us black bassas ...sfa are a joke

[Hibernia&Alba]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

so its fine to call us Fenian bassas but dont call us black bassas ...sfa are a joke

The irony being that many of the leading men in the Fenian movement were Protestant. They probably aren't even aware of this.

[madhatter]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

so this might end up triggering another 10 pages on this...but here goes - honestly, I do not care what they chant - they are words of bigotry and hate - it reflects on them and no-one else. it affects their image across Scotland and beyond - they can bang on for me - does nothing good for them.

Their image outside Scotland is protected - media don’t cover the bigotry much and tv companies turn down the mics when the sectarian chants are in full blast. The rest of the clubs in Scotland are complicit in this.
I think outside Scotland many people may have watched that match thinking “those Rangers fans make quite an atmosphere”. Similar for Celtic fans, someone not understanding the language and the culture is unlikely to have a negative outlook on either club. Bayern Munich fans could be singing a song that is banned but when I watch the Bundesliga I don’t know so why should my view of Bayern fans be tainted? For me their football is the image, not anything to do with German culture or anything internal to their league.

Personally not caring what they sing and chant leads to ignorance, collective ignorance leads to unjust freedom, providing unjust freedom to undereducated knuckle draggers leads to incidents much worse than chants. It’s like walking past an incident on the street where someone is being abused and turning a blind eye because it is just verbal. Imagine seeing on the news later that evening that the verbal abuse had escalated into physical violence. Maybe, just maybe, if you had stepped in at the verbal stage the physical violence may have been avoided?

No idea how ignoring a problem like this (long running issue in Scotland) and hoping their behaviour someone causes an implosion at both these clubs is a good idea. Without action I can guarantee it will never end.

[bigwheel]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Personally not caring what they sing and chant leads to ignorance, collective ignorance leads to unjust freedom, providing unjust freedom to undereducated knuckle draggers leads to incidents much worse than chants. It’s like walking past an incident on the street where someone is being abused and turning a blind eye because it is just verbal. Imagine seeing on the news later that evening that the verbal abuse had escalated into physical violence. Maybe, just maybe, if you had stepped in at the verbal stage the physical violence may have been avoided?
.

sorry for the Battle of the Boyne mate....it just started as a sing song......

[madhatter]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

sorry for the Battle of the Boyne mate....it just started as a sing song......

Didn't realise you were that old mate. You must have been places and done things!

Anyway, this has reached the stage of flogging a dead horse. Clearly it isn't going to change as there is no collective will for it.

[sauzee_4]

Is it really that hard (and morally unacceptable) for the clubs to say 'ok, if any fans are deemed to have sang a racist/sectarian song' or if anyone has encroached on the playing area, or if anyone has thrown a flair. Your team is deducted 3 points (Christ, I'd even accept a one or two point deduction).

Have the criteria for a points deduction clearly set out and agreed by the clubs beforehand, and this problem will almost certainly become less of an issue.

Yes there will be arguments over what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable, but I'd rather that than listen to 3,000 fans chanting about 'fenian bassas' which (having catholic friends and family) is very uncomfortable

[Nakedmanoncrack]

Who would decide what songs are to be banned? Most of the songs sung the other night are unlikely to ever find their way onto a banned list, I might not like them because I'm not a British nationalist/royalist/unionist/loyalist etc but there's no case for banning the likes of 'the Sash' (it's lyrics are hardly shocking anyway) unless you then start banning lots of other stuff that celebrates a particular identity; not only the Unionist identity, but any other. I don't want to live in a country where we ban things we don't like. The reality is that most of us haven't a clue what they are singing most of the time and dismiss everything as 'sectarianism'. Anyway, its a much over used term, people go on about Scotland's problem with 'sectarianism', without identifying the underlying issue - the anti Irish-Catholic racism which has been part of our society since the Irish mass immigration to Scotland, things have improved massively in terms of the outright discrimination etc, but the sentiment is still there and part of the Sevco identity. This is routinely (deliberately sometimes) ignored and we are told it's about two sides of same coin, centures old religious hatred etc, which simply isn't true.

[sauzee_4]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Who would decide what songs are to be banned? Most of the songs sung the other night are unlikely to ever find their way onto a banned list, I might not like them because I'm not a British nationalist/royalist/unionist/loyalist etc but there's no case for banning the likes of 'the Sash' (it's lyrics are hardly shocking anyway) unless you then start banning lots of other stuff that celebrates a particular identity; not only the Unionist identity, but any other. I don't want to live in a country where we ban things we don't like. The reality is that most of us haven't a clue what they are singing most of the time and dismiss everything as 'sectarianism'. Anyway, its a much over used term, people go on about Scotland's problem with 'sectarianism', without identifying the underlying issue - the anti Irish-Catholic racism which has been part of our society since the Irish mass immigration to Scotland, things have improved massively in terms of the outright discrimination etc, but the sentiment is still there and part of the Sevco identity. This is routinely (deliberately sometimes) ignored and we are told it's about two sides of same coin, centures old religious hatred etc, which simply isn't true.

'We're up to our knees in fenian blood' - banned.

Difference between 'banning things you don't like' and tackling racism.

I wouldn't be allowed to sing 'we're up to our knees in Muslim blood' and quite right.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

'We're up to our knees in fenian blood' - banned.

Difference between 'banning things you don't like' and tackling racism.

I wouldn't be allowed to sing 'we're up to our knees in Muslim blood' and quite right.

That one song is banned based on an interpretation of that line, however it can still be sung if that line is changed/not sung, it makes it impossible to enforce on thousands of people singing it. Most of the repertoir is not banned and isn't ever going to be.

[Michael]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Is it really that hard (and morally unacceptable) for the clubs to say 'ok, if any fans are deemed to have sang a racist/sectarian song' or if anyone has encroached on the playing area, or if anyone has thrown a flair. Your team is deducted 3 points (Christ, I'd even accept a one or two point deduction).

Have the criteria for a points deduction clearly set out and agreed by the clubs beforehand, and this problem will almost certainly become less of an issue.

Yes there will be arguments over what is acceptable and what isnt acceptable, but I'd rather that than listen to 3,000 fans chanting about 'fenian bassas' which (having catholic friends and family) is very uncomfortable

Difficulty is that if I want Hearts to lose 3 points I just have to turn up to Tynecastle and do something stupid.

[sauzee_4]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

That one song is banned based on an interpretation of that line, however it can still be sung if that line is changed/not sung, it makes it impossible to enforce on thousands of people singing it. Most of the repertoir is not banned and isn't ever going to be.

So if we prevented that line being sung are you arguing that this would not represent progress? The Rangers fans could change the words of that line and it would be a less offensive song (still nothing to do with football like) so that in my eyes would represent progress.

And it is enforceable. You have an official in the stand who can note down if there's been any sectarian chanting. Rangers fans get hame after the game and find out they've been docked points. They'll think again next time.

[sauzee_4]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Difficulty is that if I want Hearts to lose 3 points I just have to turn up to Tynecastle and do something stupid.

That's true im stumped on that one haha

[Nakedmanoncrack]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

So if we prevented that line being sung are you arguing that this would not represent progress? The Rangers fans could change the words of that line and it would be a less offensive song (still nothing to do with football like) so that in my eyes would represent progress.

And it is enforceable. You have an official in the stand who can note down if there's been any sectarian chanting. Rangers fans get hame after the game and find out they've been docked points. They'll think again next time.

I've no idea if any particular individual was singing that line on Wed, and neither has any police officer. If you really want some official sitting in the stand (would need to be same stand) noting down what he thinks people are singing, then we can amend the league table, bash on. Worth remembering that when our supporters were singing a racist ditty about refugees, there was loads of support for it on here.

[Hibs Class]

On Wednesday, as well as listening to the offensive stuff coming from the away end, we had to endure the bigot who sits across the stairs from us shouting about proddy *******s, Tory ****, black *******s and dago ****s. I'm all for taking on misbehaving away supporters but the element of our home support who behaves like that is equally disgusting.