Monday night Fitba - James Collins

[cleanyman]

Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

[bigwheel]

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Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

I was with you until the last sentence - there was nothing in Fenlons record that suggested we would have been anywhere near relegated - he has no responsibility for that - as I said earlier in this thread - his points return was around 1.4 points per game that season. Comfortably mid table performance . Butcher earned around 0.6 points per game - and it was his appalling handling of the squad which created those results ..

Fenlon was not a great manager for us, but he was a lot better than Butcher or Calderwood were - no comparison really - and the facts bear that out

[snooky]

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Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

The slide into the abyss began with Calderwood - no doubt in my mind.

[Smartie]

I think we need to be selective about what we actually blame Fenlon for.

I hold him in no way culpable for 5-1. As far as Fenlon is concerned, the fact that he picked up the shambolic remnants of a squad left to him by Calderwood, added a few loan signings and got us to a cup final is a minor miracle. The victory over Aberdeen in the semi was a great result and it is a shame for Fenlon that the final went the way it did as he will never really be given the credit he deserves for keeping us up and getting to that final.

At the final - we were playing a financially super pumped team and a referee who made major, game-changing atrocious decisions (as many of us knew he would). Fenlon got it wrong on the day, he set us up way too open and we got ripped apart down the wings. The to55ers he inherited as players were too bothered bickering about bonuses to focus on the game, he inherited a gang of dickheads and cannot be blamed for that. His only crime - he played 2 strikers and set us up a bit too open. We lost 5-1, but tbh if they'd scraped past us with a 1-0 win in a game when we hadn't even tried to win they'd still have lorded it over us and we'd have been incensed that a Hibs manager had been so negative in such a big game.

He did brilliantly the following season, but what happened the following summer was inexcusable. Whether that was down to Fenlon, Petrie or whoever it was ridiculous how ill-prepared for the following season when we knew for a long time that we were going to lose the big players we did. We were brutal at the start of that season and were lucky to be where we were in the league. We were dropping like a stone and Fenlon knew it.

It's a lot easier to like Fenlon than it is to like Butcher but he cannot be absolved of blame for our relegation. He does though deserve praise for what he managed to achieve earlier in his reign.

[Firestarter]

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The slide into the abyss began with Calderwood - no doubt in my mind.

Yogi selling stokes and replacing him with Alan Gow was the beginning for me.

[brog]

Fenlon played Kujabi in the cup final before 3 other players including Lewis & Francomb. Everyone knew it was an accident waiting to happen, unfortunately Yams included.
Fenlon played David Stephens in every pre season game & 1st game at Tannadice when we were horsed. Wee Pat said Stephens was to be the foundation of our defence. He got a free transfer a few days later. I liked Pat as a man but he deserved to be sacked for those decisions alone.
Re Collins, he was limited but IMO he gave 100%. I've seen far worse strikers at ER, including, off the top of my head, Harvey McCreadie ( 1 for older viewers ), Joe Ward & Ally Scott. He did score an excellent goal against Yams on a famous ER night.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Yogi selling stokes and replacing him with Alan Gow was the beginning for me.

Petrie sold Stokes.

[MWHIBBIES]

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Sorry but hearts were a very average team and no-one expected that score. They finished 5th in the league, 10 points behind Motherwell and 7 off Dundee Utd. Yes we were pish but that scoreline should never have happened and the blame lies squarely with Fenlon and of course Mr Billy Brown.

We hadn't beaten Hearts in over 3 years, they had us easily that day. Average beats pish every time. Tables have turned now thankfully.

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Come on, you can’t say it wasn’t Fenlons team. He was manager he set out the tactics. Hibs players all arguing the night before the cup final of bonuses was a disgrace and Fenlon should never have let it get that far. Hearts were cheating yeah but Fenlons tactics that day were embarrassing.

I can quiet easily say it wasn't Fenlons team, that is what the whole forum said that night as well, he was almost unanimously backed on here after that game. Plenty revisionists changing their opinion now but everyone knew he wasn't the problem.

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Diamond formation against two wide men (everyone knew pretty much how they would play) was entirely Fenlons call. A manager out of his depth.

Surely that gives us 4 vs 2 in the middle? Maybe that was his thinking?

Maybe the execution was poor and not the idea.

People seem to be thinking I'm saying Fenlon is some kind of genius. No, he wasn't great for us at all but no manager should be sacked based on 1 game and hounding him out caused far more harm than good.

[Firestarter]

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Petrie sold Stokes.

Yeah that's what I meant. Towards the end of the window leaving us with sod all.

[Firestarter]

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We hadn't beaten Hearts in over 3 years, they had us easily that day. Average beats pish every time. Tables have turned now thankfully.

I can quiet easily say it wasn't Fenlons team, that is what the whole forum said that night as well, he was almost unanimously backed on here after that game. Plenty revisionists changing their opinion now but everyone knew he wasn't the problem.

Surely that gives us 4 vs 2 in the middle? Maybe that was his thinking?

Maybe the execution was poor and not the idea.

People seem to be thinking I'm saying Fenlon is some kind of genius. No, he wasn't great for us at all but no manager should be sacked based on 1 game and hounding him out caused far more harm than good.

We hadn't beaten them but they where hardly good and finished ***** in the league.

Fenlon brought in Mcpake Kubjabi Doyle Claros towell francombe soars Donovan and that **** Doherty so how can you claim it wasn't his team in the final?

Hounding him out was correct, he was a poor manager what was poor was the people who decided butcher was the best man for the job of a team full of people that didn't want to be there and butcher and mainly malpas clashing with Mcpake and KT.

[silverhibee]

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Rod said publicly on a few occasions that FH and SL were delegated to identify our new manager and he would not be involved.
FH and SL interviewed Michael O'Neil for 5 hours but chose Pat Fenton.
FH in particular boasted that they had found a real winner when Pat first arrived.
Are you suggesting that they wanted Michael O'Neil but someone presumably Rod overruled them?

Rod always gets involved, he can't help himself.

They never chose Pat Fenlon, Michael O'Neil was 1st choice.

What else could he say.

Haven't suggested anything, I know how things went down over the dealings regards the two managers, but why rake over old coals. time to move on.

[Sammy7nil]

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Yogi selling stokes and replacing him with Alan Gow was the beginning for me.

For me it started when we let Gordon Smith go

[Firestarter]

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For me it started when we let Gordon Smith go

😂

[ancient hibee]

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Fenlon played Kujabi in the cup final before 3 other players including Lewis & Francomb. Everyone knew it was an accident waiting to happen, unfortunately Yams included.
Fenlon played David Stephens in every pre season game & 1st game at Tannadice when we were horsed. Wee Pat said Stephens was to be the foundation of our defence. He got a free transfer a few days later. I liked Pat as a man but he deserved to be sacked for those decisions alone.
Re Collins, he was limited but IMO he gave 100%. I've seen far worse strikers at ER, including, off the top of my head, Harvey McCreadie ( 1 for older viewers ), Joe Ward & Ally Scott. He did score an excellent goal against Yams on a famous ER night.

I’m just catching up with this thread before I go to bed and read these dreadful words,McCreadie,Ward and Scott.How dare you,nightmares for sure now.

[SChibs]

I don't blame fenlon at all for bringing the likes for vine, collins and Heffernan. Vine and Heffernan were top scorers for their teams the season before ( vine was joint top for st J who finished above us) and collins scored goals down south and had interest from other bigger clubs

[Jones28]

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Cannae believe folk are still defending Pat Fenlon.

Yes, the guy took us to two cup finals and had a decent first season but that summer he had before he left was abysmal.

Every player he signed was gash. Vine and Mullen FFS.

Yes, Butcher took us down but PF set the foundations

We wouldn't have been relegated if Fenlon had stayed.

Butcher came in and ****ed the job by telling players they were not wanted and paid the price for his horrendous man management.

[Oscar T Grouch]

Reading this thread reminds me how far we have come in a relatively short period of time. Compare that team of 4 years ago to this one, compare the lack of structure at the club to how it is now, compare Collins to Stokes or Murray, compare Fenlon/Butcher to Lennon, compare any of the transfer windows back then to the last couple we've had, then smile!

[heretoday]

It was all the fault of that horrible dark strip we wore.

[brog]

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I’m just catching up with this thread before I go to bed and read these dreadful words,McCreadie,Ward and Scott.How dare you,nightmares for sure now.

Apologies, i had a few more but I'll refrain!

[Hibernia&Alba]

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I was with you until the last sentence - there was nothing in Fenlons record that suggested we would have been anywhere near relegated - he has no responsibility for that - as I said earlier in this thread - his points return was around 1.4 points per game that season. Comfortably mid table performance . Butcher earned around 0.6 points per game - and it was his appalling handling of the squad which created those results ..

Fenlon was not a great manager for us, but he was a lot better than Butcher or Calderwood were - no comparison really - and the facts bear that out

Good post and I totally agree. Butcher took us to a nadir of gashness.

[Northernhibee]

Pat Fenlon's contract would have run out the summer we were relegated. If he'd stayed to the end of his contract we'd have been lower mid table but we'd never have been relegated.

I formerly worked with an ex Caley Thistle player who was forced out of the club by Butcher and the stories he told me about Butcher paint the man in a terrible light. Not a pleasant character and a dreadful manager.