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  1. #121
    @hibs.net private member Viva_Palmeiras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    It's fairly straightforward. Go to the "donate" page on our web site www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and select any amount you are comfortable. Please insert your son's details as the new member but use your own bank details under the Direct Debit part. Many thanks for your continued generosity.

    HSL

    Maybe this link could be a link/sticky on here, the bounce and official site.

    When the management fund was initially debated (folks may recall the calls to raise funds to get Sparky - only £150k apparently :)) it became clear to me that there was a number of ways to invest in the club - STs, Hibernians, Stones, the Lotto, kicks for kids. We now have another vehicle to more directly invest in he club. There was the apparent demand then there seems to be the apparent demand now. It for whatever reason it didn’t really materialise then and it would seem to have peaked/plateaued for now?

    Comparison with Hearts whilst understandable differs in circumstance but why not use it as a motivator to do better - I think we all aspired to that.

    But what if the simple fact is we have a different profile of support that given their circumstances as such they cannot afford to contribute more? Maybe a higher percentage of the support are at periods in their lives when they have to tighten the belt (kids/caring duties - as there are more and more cuts to services - families are having to fund more or rely on charities to for example support kids on the autistic spectrum)

    So whilst on one hand the answer may seem simple - market more, raise awareness, add in link/option at purchase if season ticket - but it could
    be more complex. The only way to see is give it a go.

    But if it doesn’t work out In great volumes of donations please don’t throw “failure” around. In the small glimpses I’ve seen through early days of
    LWT I got a sense of just how much effort folks need to put in to get things off the ground. Were all in it for the same reason - love of the club. Whilst there’s always room to improve let’s work with the organisers - all to easy to sit on the sidelines and. criticise.
    "We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
    "Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.


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  3. #122
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BSEJVT View Post
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    Thank you for your reply

    I am very grateful for your participation, I would like to see and hear a great deal more from you

    I am sorry in that I cannot agree that you have not failed.

    The nature of that failure and the extent and causes of it we can debate extensively and by PM or private correspondence should you wish.

    The simple facts of the matter are though:

    1) FOH for all the caveats and different reason supplied by you and others raise approximately 10 times what HSL do.

    2) Communication is virtually non existent, promotion worse.

    3) Huge tactical errors have been made in allowing this "golden period" for Hibs to slide without tapping into that feel good factor

    4) There appears to be no strategy for post full share ownership continuation or even an attempt to engage the support on consultation on the topic.

    5) It all seems a bit self congratulatory to me, although huge opportunities have and continue to be missed

    6) It gives me no pleasure to criticise good Hibs people doing their bit but we have been down this road before and nothing has changed

    7) Those guys lives must come first but there are plenty willing to share the load, contribute in one way or another yet afaik no help has ever been sought.

    8) I realise that this is uncomfortable, not least for me in raising this issue in the aggressive manner I have as this isn't me, but I worry greatly that our complacency on this issue will bite us hugely in the backside in future if it isn't addressed.
    Pretty much in broad agreement with this but (there's always a but!)

    4)...

    Its never intended to be full ownership. As currently designed , its 51% fan ownership, critically this is across all areas including independent shareholders as well as HSL. What that means is that someone could come along in the future and buy us and be the "owner" and make the vast majority of the day to day decisions BUT if they for example decided to sell ER and move they'd need to get HSL on board as well as a number of the independents.

    HSL have also already stated that once that 51% ceiling is reached they'll canvas us contributers to see if we would like to continue on a contribution only basis into the current ring fenced team money pot.



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  4. #123
    Testimonial Due Ken's Avatar
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    Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL

    I've only read the first 20 odd posts of this thread but comparing Hearts fans contributing to FOH and Hibs fans to HSL is in no way the same. They HAVE TO do it in order to keep the club running, pay for their new stand and THEN buy out Budge with the money going TO HER. Any shares bought by Hibs fans goes to the playing squad and STF and Petrie see none of it. FACT

    Would any other fans of a club of a similar club do it unless they had to??? No chance.

    Anyone else still in doubt, ask yourself this question....would there be much uptake if season tickets were £600, because that is the combined price a lot of Hearts fans are paying for their season tickets and FOH donations over the season


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  5. #124
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    I think HSL is a great vehicle for ensuring the club isn't exposed to predatory and exploitative business owners like Romanov, Whyte, Green, etc and it's good to know that donations to the playing budget are actually helping prevent that by helping the club become community owned.

    I do think HSL could be a lot more though and could actually be a vehicle for all Hibernian supporters to relate to the club and finance all our activities with the club to give us a convenient monthly payment.

    For example:

    £50 a month (£600 a year) could get you:
    •Annual membership fee £20 (could be used for admin & growth)
    •Season ticket £380)
    •£50 shop voucher (for top)
    •£100 towards acquisition of shares for HSL
    •£50 towards Kick for Kids

    I think a lot of people would be happy paying out a monthly amount like that knowing it would cover season ticket and other things.

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  6. #125
    First Team Regular Reaper's Avatar
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    I'm going to admit I don't contribute currently and I am not completely savvy in the running of HSL or the FOH.

    What I would say are based on my limited understanding is the 2 are not directly comparable as they've been borne out of very different circumstances.

    FOH was borne out of necessity and really a drive by a current owner who has no interest in owning and bailing out a football club for the long term. Their whole basis is to fund infrastructure projects, cover various costs and ultimately be the support beams for the club as whole in the future. At this time the 'vision' appears sound BUT there is no parameters set as to how the money is/can be spent and it is redirected according to the immediate needs of the business regardless of what that attitude is then detrimental to (look at the current playing staff/coaching set up).

    HSL was set up to provide additional funds for the playing staff budget, those parameters are set and adhered to by the club currently. An additional bonus is that there is a collective share issue that is contributing to the long term goal of fans owning a majority shareholding of the club predominantly as a protective measure to prevent asset stripping and rogue financial 'tradesmen' doing long term damage.

    1. If HSL was set up in the same circs as FOH then I believe we would see a very different level of contribution and attitude towards it from the Majority. In other words if we were in dire straits the fans would step up.
    2. FOH appear to better at issuing some certificate or momentos/validation to their contributors as a thank you and confirming their personal effort is recognised. HSL appear to on the poorer side of this and like it or not most people want to know where their money's going and want recognition/validation for that. These small things can make a big difference to recruiting contributors.

    3. And this is my main concern. The FOH has the ultimate goal to own and effectively fund the running costs of the club. All fine and well when things are rosy, what happens when things start to go wrong and we know better than any fans things in football can go south at alarming rates. People start to get disillusioned and contributions start to drop but the level of wages, costs etc don't.

    If people have personal financial difficulty or if the country went into another recession, contributions will drop but again costs don't.

    Also fans may own the club as a collective but who decides the parameters of how the money gets spent. FOH could set parameters around a percentage for the playing budget but when another of their stands needs an urgent upgrade do you honestly think the people in charge wouldn't consider all sources of income to fund a rebuild if it was necessary?

    4. I suffered a personal tragedy this year (I posted about it a few months back, thread titled 'tears clear my blindness) but what I didn't mention is when I reached out to the club, I was sadly let down in a bad way by numerous people, including Leeanne Dempster. I'm not going to dwell on this here or go into the ins and outs as thankfully given other stories posted I seem to have been the unfortunate exception as opposed to the rule. However had I been a contributor this experience would have seen it cease immediately. I now have my ST but that's for my own pleasure as opposed to any feeling of loyalty to help the club. Sad but very true.

    This adds to the previous points and shows that these contribution groups are unstable as any financial, personal experience or a bad run by the club can see them drop.

    I think HSL is a good platform in its current format but agree more advertising and information needs to be forthcoming.

    FOH to me if I was a contributing Hearts fan would pose more questions and concerns than answers for me just now (not a dig at the. As its commendable how they've rallied)

    If anyone feels my points are not valid or my understanding isn't on point please feel free to correct me. As I said my understanding and knowledge is limited.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by StevieCowan View Post
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    Here’s a thought.

    I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

    However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

    The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.
    Stevie

    You may find it strange but we share your view. None of the Directors of HSL want to see the Club run by supporters. Football Clubs nowadays are complicated business's and need to be run by full time Executives who know what they are doing. HSL is about achieving a meaningful ownership stake to help protect the club and simply just give the Club additional financial help. I am sure there are some supporters who share your view but unfortunately in the past this does not seemed to have turned itself into sizeable numbers. Many fans will happily tell you that they do their bit and didn't want to hand their money over for nothing. Almost three years ago the Board announced plans to facilitate providing extra financial help to the Club and at the same time giving supporters something in return. At HSL we can accommodate your proposition. Please feel free to donate to HSL and we will pass on your money to the Club and decline to take up Membership of HSL.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Thecat23 View Post
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    Can’t say I have been a fan of supporters owning a club. I like the idea of what another poster SC said about paying DD to help the transfer funds. I’d happily pay that!

    That’s just me though and I respect others would rather own a share of the club.
    The cat

    We would be happy to take your donation to the Club. Go to www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and navigate to the "donate" page.

    You do not have to take up your option of ownership.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Sioux View Post
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    HSL is not the problem. Hibs fans are well aware of it's existence. People need to stop wi the attitude that it's always someone else's fault. If fans want to pay they will pay, if not..............
    Sioux

    Thank you for your support.

    None of us are perfect and I'm sure we could have done better and we are working hard to improve on those areas. We just don't want any HSL Members feeling any sense of failure. Their donations have been superb and rest assured have made a significant difference. We would simply welcome the chance to widen things out to even more supporters.

  10. #129
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    The cat

    We would be happy to take your donation to the Club. Go to www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and navigate to the "donate" page.

    You do not have to take up your option of ownership.
    His donation would be converted into shares, though. So, indirectly, he would be contributing to a scenario he doesn't approve of.

  11. #130
    Coaching Staff SlickShoes's Avatar
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    The situations both clubs are in are vastly different, I give £10 a month, if we were about to go under I'd give more and i'd have my parents donating as well. As it stands I am happy to put in a tenner a month and keep that going as long as the scheme is running.

  12. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by BSEJVT View Post
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    Wouldn't disagree with this at all

    IMO part of the reason for the failure of HSL is that there is no long term plan or option to do as you suggest

    That and the facts that engagement with subscribers either existing or would be and publicity are virtually nil.

    It is all just such a wasted opportunity that I fear we will live to regret in the decades to come

    Noted below was our Vision and Objectives Statement circulated to all Members almost two years ago.

    HIBERNIAN SUPPORTERS LTD (HSL)



    OUR VISION

    Our long term vision is to obtain a controlling stake ( greater than 50% Shareholding) in the Club and ensure that supporters interest in their Club is protected for ever.

    Our medium term vision is to acquire a meaningful ownership stake in the Club by 2020. Our minimum target is 35% shareholding.

    To support the Club Board and Management in fulfilling the Club’s full potential and operating at the top tier of Scottish Football.

    To develop an ownership entity ( HSL ) that adheres to the principles of community ownership and operates in a transparent and democratic manner.

    For HSL to be represented on the Club Board by the end of Season 2016/2017.




    HOW DO WE GET THERE (Our Objectives)

    We will turn our vision into reality by :

    Encouraging all fans to recognise that our Club needs to be supported in good times and bad while operating in a sustainable manner.

    Achieving a membership base of 2000 members by the end of 2016 and 3000 members by the end of 2017.

    Recruiting members from all sections of the Hibs supporter base. Ensuring that the membership base of HSL is representative of the wider Hibernian community.

    Valuing the opinions of all fans equally and supporting at all times the principle of one member one vote.

    Donating more than £500,000 to the Club by the end of 2016.

  13. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by SlickShoes View Post
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    The situations both clubs are in are vastly different, I give £10 a month, if we were about to go under I'd give more and i'd have my parents donating as well. As it stands I am happy to put in a tenner a month and keep that going as long as the scheme is running.
    That’s exactly my view and what I do

    Not for fan ownership reasons, just a wee bit extra towards player budget

  14. #133
    @hibs.net private member weecounty hibby's Avatar
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    Thing is it becomes a habit and you don't even notice the money after a while. FOH got a lot of DDs as they were facing extinction. What has happened is that these guys have just got used to giving and probably now don't even think about it. They will probably only stop if they have a major change in circumstances in their lives. I subscribe to a couple of bike magazines monty and MCN weekly, some months and weeks I don't even read them but as The DDs are set up and I don't even notice them anymore I just let them run.
    If I'm being honest I completely forgot about HSL until these threads appeared. I don't really want shares in the club but would donate something monthly on top of our STs. When HSL first appeared I couldn't really afford extra but probably could now

  15. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    It's fairly straightforward. Go to the "donate" page on our web site www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and select any amount you are comfortable. Please insert your son's details as the new member but use your own bank details under the Direct Debit part. Many thanks for your continued generosity.

    HSL
    I think this has illustrated some of the problems that could be holding HSL back from it's full potential, when you click on 'donate' then choose an amount it takes you directly to a page to set up a direct debit.

    Only an account holder can set up a Direct Debit Instruction so I don't see how you can put a name other than the name on the bank account. So I've set up the DD but will have to get it sorted out as a membership for my son rather than a top-up to my already paid-up membership later.

    There's also the issue of the website not working on phones .

    It really needs to be made as easy & simple as possible for people to sign up, unfortunately it currently isn't.

  16. #135
    @hibs.net private member RIP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoYO! View Post
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    My 2 pence and as others have said,

    The idea of fan ownership does absolutely nothing for me.

    Too many chiefs, in-fighting, power struggles, politics I could go on, I have no desire to have that as the target.

    I'm sure people will tell me it won't be at all like that...
    Are you aware that Hibs have been fan owned and fan run almost the whole time since 1875? Along with 95% of clubs the world over.

    The Romanov and conglomerate models never work. The only sustainable model is fan owned and run.

    Not saying Tom and Rod were fans 25 years ago mind you. But theyve both been living and breathing Hibs for many years. Brian, Bruce, Amanda, Steven, Colin, Garry - all directors I've met in the last decade - huge Hibbies all.

  17. #136
    they even stopped taking my direct debit.

  18. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Mikey View Post
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    For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.


    Quote Originally Posted by Firestarter View Post
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    Is there a way to find out the difference between what they and hsl put into the club last year?
    Not sure of the HSL figure (I haven't read the whole thread, if it was even mentioned ) but LL contributed 269 x £75 = £20,175 last season


    Quote Originally Posted by StevieCowan View Post
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    Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

    One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

    Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from
    NL and a link to sign up.
    That's a fair comment. I did suggest a 'Category B' season to avoid this issue but the Club decided on a cap on the numbers meantime.

  19. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonhibby View Post
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    I think the club have now "capped" the number of tickets leithlinks can buy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BSEJVT View Post
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    Its not quite as simple as that any more Mikey

    Hibs have had to cap the number of KFK tickets available and I believe (Suzy will confirm one way or another) that we currently subscribe more than there are tickets available to buy
    That is correct. 300 KfK STs was the quoted number but that also includes those who purchase the tickets direct from the Club, so it left 189 for Leith Links. Hopefully there will be some movement next season though

  20. #139
    Coaching Staff NAE NOOKIE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OfficialHSL View Post
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    Noted below was our Vision and Objectives Statement circulated to all Members almost two years ago.

    HIBERNIAN SUPPORTERS LTD (HSL)



    OUR VISION

    Our long term vision is to obtain a controlling stake ( greater than 50% Shareholding) in the Club and ensure that supporters interest in their Club is protected for ever.

    Our medium term vision is to acquire a meaningful ownership stake in the Club by 2020. Our minimum target is 35% shareholding.

    To support the Club Board and Management in fulfilling the Club’s full potential and operating at the top tier of Scottish Football.

    To develop an ownership entity ( HSL ) that adheres to the principles of community ownership and operates in a transparent and democratic manner.

    For HSL to be represented on the Club Board by the end of Season 2016/2017.




    HOW DO WE GET THERE (Our Objectives)

    We will turn our vision into reality by :

    Encouraging all fans to recognise that our Club needs to be supported in good times and bad while operating in a sustainable manner.

    Achieving a membership base of 2000 members by the end of 2016 and 3000 members by the end of 2017.

    Recruiting members from all sections of the Hibs supporter base. Ensuring that the membership base of HSL is representative of the wider Hibernian community.

    Valuing the opinions of all fans equally and supporting at all times the principle of one member one vote.

    Donating more than £500,000 to the Club by the end of 2016.
    Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

    I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

    That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

    My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

    In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

    Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

    Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

    Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

    Well? .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.
    Last edited by NAE NOOKIE; 23-11-2017 at 01:19 AM.

  21. #140
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

    I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

    That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

    My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

    In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

    Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

    Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

    Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

    Well? .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.
    I'd like to think that we would have a Board in place who would be able to, partially at least, sense those events coming. In that light, they would have the opportunity and sense to take the appropriate action.

    That action, of course, might be to take out external finance. A company with substantial unencumbered assets, with (by that time, hopefully) no debt, would be a decent proposition for a lender.

    In short, we'd be doing what most companies have to do and living in the real world, within our means.

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  22. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

    I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

    That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

    My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

    In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

    Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

    Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

    Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

    Well? .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.
    Im not fearful of fan ownership that you and others are expressing but you do paint a likely possible scenario. My hope is that we can all find some common ground to enable us to deal with the lack of a sugar daddy/ rich possibly balmy new investor. I’d much rather trust in the mass of our fan base albeit the management of the club needs to be professional and allowed to manage.
    How can we bring the pro, sceptical, anti, yet to be convinced there is a problem together, together so we can amass a much larger contribution to HSL?

  23. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by BSEJVT View Post
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    Its not quite as simple as that any more Mikey

    Hibs have had to cap the number of KFK tickets available and I believe (Suzy will confirm one way or another) that we currently subscribe more than there are tickets available to buy
    People give to Kicks for Kids / Leith Links with good intentions, but I don't think the scheme when launched by the club was ever envisaged to take up hundreds of seats which could be sold at full price. I've asked before if all the tickets get used at every game as it could be a possible explanation of some of the vast number of empty seats in sold out stands (FF in particular) still don't know the answer. Also where are these seats situated? Are they prime seats which again the paying supporter might want the chance to sit in. As I said, the motives behind the scheme & those who collect for Leith Links are highly commendable, but due to its success the numbers seem way out of proportion for what you'd expect in a stadium with only c.16,000 seats for home supporters.

  24. #143
    Testimonial Due CB_NO3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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    That theory is bollocks. We have had a top 4/5 Scottish budget ovet the last 20 years and have achieved nothing really.

  25. #144
    @hibs.net private member BSEJVT's Avatar
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    Interesting debate on this thread which was the entire point of it, with a deliberately provocative title and input on my part.

    I get entirely that many people aren't interested in fan ownership, I am not either as a principle but there is middle ground.

    What I would like is for the magical 26% of the share holding to be held in a fans trust (as opposed to individual shares as you can never be sure who is buying them and in what quantities)

    If we could achieve that then we could say with certainty that the club could never ever be taken away from us as Wallet tried to do.

    I get entirely that folk would want to buy their own shares too, I have, but I have and also want HSL to get to that 26% and the sooner the better and for that reason contribute to HSL despite my reservations about fan ownership.

    What though is fan ownership really, I suspect we will see very little difference, the principle one being that the directors will be nominated pretty much equally by STF's 49% and then by independent / HSL shareholders 51%.

    For that reason alone it is in my view critical that HSL acquire 26% to guarantee that they can prevent anything that is against the supporters interests.

    Some will argue with some justification that the individual shareholders would deal with that, right now I couldn't say who owned the shares or in what quantities and wouldn't be prepared to trust to luck that it would all work out okay in the end.

    It's not for me to tell folk what to do but the clear direction of travel for the club is to have 51% of the shares fan owned and I would really encourage folk who don't want fan ownership to recognise that it will happen and contribute accordingly to protect the club's future as I have outlined above,

    When that 26% is reached I will quite happily cease contributing to HSL and we can then find a way to redirect those contributions direct to the club, but 26% is very much the target IMO.

  26. #145
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAE NOOKIE View Post
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    Please see the part I have highlighted in the 'our vision' part of the statement.

    I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'

    That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.

    My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.

    In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.

    Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.

    Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?

    Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.

    Well? .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.
    A possible scenario Nookie is ...

    Once HSL have bought all the shares they are able to they will keep collecting money and become the lender of last resort.

    If we (the club) have cash flow problems or the board need a few quid to buy the next SJM then they would chat with the HSL board and they would decide whether to lend it or gift it in the same way as STF does now.

    Of course exactly how that worked would be up to the members of HSL.

    It's not too fanciful, many including myself would be happy to continue contributing and how knows, those saying they don't want anything to do with shares might join in.

  27. #146
    @hibs.net private member Arch Stanton's Avatar
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    NN -
    There are apparently 2000 or so companies listed in the London stock exchange - none of which are in any kind of a sweat because they don't have a single big controlling interest to act as sugar daddy in the event of them being suddenly landed with some totally unexpected bill.

    So, who's right, you or them?

  28. #147
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crabis View Post
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    NN -
    There are apparently 2000 or so companies listed in the London stock exchange - none of which are in any kind of a sweat because they don't have a single big controlling interest to act as sugar daddy in the event of them being suddenly landed with some totally unexpected bill.

    So, who's right, you or them?
    There's a culture that has evolved in football that assumes every club needs its sole support, its "sugar daddy". Whilst that's understandable, it's not particularly healthy. The notion of being a plaything, which in most cases is the reality, doesn't make for sound long-term strategy.

    Whilst we have benefitted from that in the past, we are slowly evolving and moving away from that. The idea of living in the real world, commercially and strategically, is IMO a welcome development. It's not without its dangers, of course, but we have a regime in place that will recognise them and make the appropriate arrangements.

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  29. #148
    @hibs.net private member Arch Stanton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    There's a culture that has evolved in football that assumes every club needs its sole support, its "sugar daddy". Whilst that's understandable, it's not particularly healthy. The notion of being a plaything, which in most cases is the reality, doesn't make for sound long-term strategy.

    Whilst we have benefitted from that in the past, we are slowly evolving and moving away from that. The idea of living in the real world, commercially and strategically, is IMO a welcome development. It's not without its dangers, of course, but we have a regime in place that will recognise them and make the appropriate arrangements.

    Indeed, and in addition we also have a big source of funds waiting in the wings - witness FOH who stood up to the plate when Hearts were close to the edge.

    And looking at this thread shows that there is a willingness to give extra support for the club and that such willingness would only increase if the club were in any kind of peril.

  30. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Nakedmanoncrack View Post
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    People give to Kicks for Kids / Leith Links with good intentions, but I don't think the scheme when launched by the club was ever envisaged to take up hundreds of seats which could be sold at full price. I've asked before if all the tickets get used at every game as it could be a possible explanation of some of the vast number of empty seats in sold out stands (FF in particular) still don't know the answer. Also where are these seats situated? Are they prime seats which again the paying supporter might want the chance to sit in. As I said, the motives behind the scheme & those who collect for Leith Links are highly commendable, but due to its success the numbers seem way out of proportion for what you'd expect in a stadium with only c.16,000 seats for home supporters.
    Apologies, I thought I'd answered you previously. The KfK STs are all situated in the East, section 37/38 IIRC.

    If tickets are not picked up, Hibs contact the groups concerned in case they can't use their allocation but they reallocate on the Fri night/Sat morning wherever possible so the tickets aren't wasted
    Last edited by FranckSuzy; 23-11-2017 at 02:17 PM.

  31. #150
    @hibs.net private member Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nakedmanoncrack View Post
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    People give to Kicks for Kids / Leith Links with good intentions, but I don't think the scheme when launched by the club was ever envisaged to take up hundreds of seats which could be sold at full price. I've asked before if all the tickets get used at every game as it could be a possible explanation of some of the vast number of empty seats in sold out stands (FF in particular) still don't know the answer. Also where are these seats situated? Are they prime seats which again the paying supporter might want the chance to sit in. As I said, the motives behind the scheme & those who collect for Leith Links are highly commendable, but due to its success the numbers seem way out of proportion for what you'd expect in a stadium with only c.16,000 seats for home supporters.
    It's less than 2%. That seems very much in proportion to me.

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