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Maybe this link could be a link/sticky on here, the bounce and official site.
When the management fund was initially debated (folks may recall the calls to raise funds to get Sparky - only £150k apparently :)) it became clear to me that there was a number of ways to invest in the club - STs, Hibernians, Stones, the Lotto, kicks for kids. We now have another vehicle to more directly invest in he club. There was the apparent demand then there seems to be the apparent demand now. It for whatever reason it didn’t really materialise then and it would seem to have peaked/plateaued for now?
Comparison with Hearts whilst understandable differs in circumstance but why not use it as a motivator to do better - I think we all aspired to that.
But what if the simple fact is we have a different profile of support that given their circumstances as such they cannot afford to contribute more? Maybe a higher percentage of the support are at periods in their lives when they have to tighten the belt (kids/caring duties - as there are more and more cuts to services - families are having to fund more or rely on charities to for example support kids on the autistic spectrum)
So whilst on one hand the answer may seem simple - market more, raise awareness, add in link/option at purchase if season ticket - but it could
be more complex. The only way to see is give it a go.
But if it doesn’t work out In great volumes of donations please don’t throw “failure” around. In the small glimpses I’ve seen through early days of
LWT I got a sense of just how much effort folks need to put in to get things off the ground. Were all in it for the same reason - love of the club. Whilst there’s always room to improve let’s work with the organisers - all to easy to sit on the sidelines and. criticise.
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22-11-2017 07:55 PM #121"We know the people who have invested so far are simple fans." Vladimir Romanov - Scotsman 10th December 2012
"Romanov was like a breath of fresh air - laced with cyanide." Me.
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22-11-2017 08:03 PM #122This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
4)...
Its never intended to be full ownership. As currently designed , its 51% fan ownership, critically this is across all areas including independent shareholders as well as HSL. What that means is that someone could come along in the future and buy us and be the "owner" and make the vast majority of the day to day decisions BUT if they for example decided to sell ER and move they'd need to get HSL on board as well as a number of the independents.
HSL have also already stated that once that 51% ceiling is reached they'll canvas us contributers to see if we would like to continue on a contribution only basis into the current ring fenced team money pot.
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22-11-2017 08:13 PM #123
Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL
I've only read the first 20 odd posts of this thread but comparing Hearts fans contributing to FOH and Hibs fans to HSL is in no way the same. They HAVE TO do it in order to keep the club running, pay for their new stand and THEN buy out Budge with the money going TO HER. Any shares bought by Hibs fans goes to the playing squad and STF and Petrie see none of it. FACT
Would any other fans of a club of a similar club do it unless they had to??? No chance.
Anyone else still in doubt, ask yourself this question....would there be much uptake if season tickets were £600, because that is the combined price a lot of Hearts fans are paying for their season tickets and FOH donations over the season
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22-11-2017 08:40 PM #124
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I think HSL is a great vehicle for ensuring the club isn't exposed to predatory and exploitative business owners like Romanov, Whyte, Green, etc and it's good to know that donations to the playing budget are actually helping prevent that by helping the club become community owned.
I do think HSL could be a lot more though and could actually be a vehicle for all Hibernian supporters to relate to the club and finance all our activities with the club to give us a convenient monthly payment.
For example:
£50 a month (£600 a year) could get you:
•Annual membership fee £20 (could be used for admin & growth)
•Season ticket £380)
•£50 shop voucher (for top)
•£100 towards acquisition of shares for HSL
•£50 towards Kick for Kids
I think a lot of people would be happy paying out a monthly amount like that knowing it would cover season ticket and other things.
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22-11-2017 08:43 PM #125
I'm going to admit I don't contribute currently and I am not completely savvy in the running of HSL or the FOH.
What I would say are based on my limited understanding is the 2 are not directly comparable as they've been borne out of very different circumstances.
FOH was borne out of necessity and really a drive by a current owner who has no interest in owning and bailing out a football club for the long term. Their whole basis is to fund infrastructure projects, cover various costs and ultimately be the support beams for the club as whole in the future. At this time the 'vision' appears sound BUT there is no parameters set as to how the money is/can be spent and it is redirected according to the immediate needs of the business regardless of what that attitude is then detrimental to (look at the current playing staff/coaching set up).
HSL was set up to provide additional funds for the playing staff budget, those parameters are set and adhered to by the club currently. An additional bonus is that there is a collective share issue that is contributing to the long term goal of fans owning a majority shareholding of the club predominantly as a protective measure to prevent asset stripping and rogue financial 'tradesmen' doing long term damage.
1. If HSL was set up in the same circs as FOH then I believe we would see a very different level of contribution and attitude towards it from the Majority. In other words if we were in dire straits the fans would step up.
2. FOH appear to better at issuing some certificate or momentos/validation to their contributors as a thank you and confirming their personal effort is recognised. HSL appear to on the poorer side of this and like it or not most people want to know where their money's going and want recognition/validation for that. These small things can make a big difference to recruiting contributors.
3. And this is my main concern. The FOH has the ultimate goal to own and effectively fund the running costs of the club. All fine and well when things are rosy, what happens when things start to go wrong and we know better than any fans things in football can go south at alarming rates. People start to get disillusioned and contributions start to drop but the level of wages, costs etc don't.
If people have personal financial difficulty or if the country went into another recession, contributions will drop but again costs don't.
Also fans may own the club as a collective but who decides the parameters of how the money gets spent. FOH could set parameters around a percentage for the playing budget but when another of their stands needs an urgent upgrade do you honestly think the people in charge wouldn't consider all sources of income to fund a rebuild if it was necessary?
4. I suffered a personal tragedy this year (I posted about it a few months back, thread titled 'tears clear my blindness) but what I didn't mention is when I reached out to the club, I was sadly let down in a bad way by numerous people, including Leeanne Dempster. I'm not going to dwell on this here or go into the ins and outs as thankfully given other stories posted I seem to have been the unfortunate exception as opposed to the rule. However had I been a contributor this experience would have seen it cease immediately. I now have my ST but that's for my own pleasure as opposed to any feeling of loyalty to help the club. Sad but very true.
This adds to the previous points and shows that these contribution groups are unstable as any financial, personal experience or a bad run by the club can see them drop.
I think HSL is a good platform in its current format but agree more advertising and information needs to be forthcoming.
FOH to me if I was a contributing Hearts fan would pose more questions and concerns than answers for me just now (not a dig at the. As its commendable how they've rallied)
If anyone feels my points are not valid or my understanding isn't on point please feel free to correct me. As I said my understanding and knowledge is limited.
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22-11-2017 09:08 PM #126This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
You may find it strange but we share your view. None of the Directors of HSL want to see the Club run by supporters. Football Clubs nowadays are complicated business's and need to be run by full time Executives who know what they are doing. HSL is about achieving a meaningful ownership stake to help protect the club and simply just give the Club additional financial help. I am sure there are some supporters who share your view but unfortunately in the past this does not seemed to have turned itself into sizeable numbers. Many fans will happily tell you that they do their bit and didn't want to hand their money over for nothing. Almost three years ago the Board announced plans to facilitate providing extra financial help to the Club and at the same time giving supporters something in return. At HSL we can accommodate your proposition. Please feel free to donate to HSL and we will pass on your money to the Club and decline to take up Membership of HSL.
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22-11-2017 09:11 PM #127This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
We would be happy to take your donation to the Club. Go to www.hiberniansupporters.co.uk and navigate to the "donate" page.
You do not have to take up your option of ownership.
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22-11-2017 09:16 PM #128This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Thank you for your support.
None of us are perfect and I'm sure we could have done better and we are working hard to improve on those areas. We just don't want any HSL Members feeling any sense of failure. Their donations have been superb and rest assured have made a significant difference. We would simply welcome the chance to widen things out to even more supporters.
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22-11-2017 09:18 PM #129This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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22-11-2017 09:18 PM #130
The situations both clubs are in are vastly different, I give £10 a month, if we were about to go under I'd give more and i'd have my parents donating as well. As it stands I am happy to put in a tenner a month and keep that going as long as the scheme is running.
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22-11-2017 09:23 PM #131This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Noted below was our Vision and Objectives Statement circulated to all Members almost two years ago.
HIBERNIAN SUPPORTERS LTD (HSL)
OUR VISION
Our long term vision is to obtain a controlling stake ( greater than 50% Shareholding) in the Club and ensure that supporters interest in their Club is protected for ever.
Our medium term vision is to acquire a meaningful ownership stake in the Club by 2020. Our minimum target is 35% shareholding.
To support the Club Board and Management in fulfilling the Club’s full potential and operating at the top tier of Scottish Football.
To develop an ownership entity ( HSL ) that adheres to the principles of community ownership and operates in a transparent and democratic manner.
For HSL to be represented on the Club Board by the end of Season 2016/2017.
HOW DO WE GET THERE (Our Objectives)
We will turn our vision into reality by :
Encouraging all fans to recognise that our Club needs to be supported in good times and bad while operating in a sustainable manner.
Achieving a membership base of 2000 members by the end of 2016 and 3000 members by the end of 2017.
Recruiting members from all sections of the Hibs supporter base. Ensuring that the membership base of HSL is representative of the wider Hibernian community.
Valuing the opinions of all fans equally and supporting at all times the principle of one member one vote.
Donating more than £500,000 to the Club by the end of 2016.
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22-11-2017 09:24 PM #132
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Not for fan ownership reasons, just a wee bit extra towards player budget
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22-11-2017 10:25 PM #133
Thing is it becomes a habit and you don't even notice the money after a while. FOH got a lot of DDs as they were facing extinction. What has happened is that these guys have just got used to giving and probably now don't even think about it. They will probably only stop if they have a major change in circumstances in their lives. I subscribe to a couple of bike magazines monty and MCN weekly, some months and weeks I don't even read them but as The DDs are set up and I don't even notice them anymore I just let them run.
If I'm being honest I completely forgot about HSL until these threads appeared. I don't really want shares in the club but would donate something monthly on top of our STs. When HSL first appeared I couldn't really afford extra but probably could now
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22-11-2017 10:25 PM #134This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Only an account holder can set up a Direct Debit Instruction so I don't see how you can put a name other than the name on the bank account. So I've set up the DD but will have to get it sorted out as a membership for my son rather than a top-up to my already paid-up membership later.
There's also the issue of the website not working on phones .
It really needs to be made as easy & simple as possible for people to sign up, unfortunately it currently isn't.
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22-11-2017 10:26 PM #135This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
The Romanov and conglomerate models never work. The only sustainable model is fan owned and run.
Not saying Tom and Rod were fans 25 years ago mind you. But theyve both been living and breathing Hibs for many years. Brian, Bruce, Amanda, Steven, Colin, Garry - all directors I've met in the last decade - huge Hibbies all.
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22-11-2017 11:54 PM #137This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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22-11-2017 11:58 PM #138This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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23-11-2017 01:06 AM #139This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I have asked this question several times on here and have never received a satisfactory answer. If HSL along with individual shareholders owns more than 50% of the club it seems obvious to me that we will never be able to attract a rich benefactor to the club ... as someone on here very cleverly put it, in the eyes of a prospective owner 'it would be like buying a telly and giving somebody else the remote control'
That being the case, exactly what is HSL's vision for the future running of the club when 51% control is in the hands of the fans? STF will still be the largest shareholder, but what are his plans for those shares? HSL will be the 2nd biggest shareholder whatever happens, but until the plan for STF's holding is known how can you have any idea how the club will be run? and if you don't shouldn't you be looking into this BEFORE the event.
My main concern is that according to the club there are currently 2,400 shareholders 'including HSL' .... I do not know if that includes HSL as a single shareholder or if all HSL's individual contributors are included in the figure. Lets look on the bright side and say the 2,400 figure does include HSL as a single entity, in which case 2,400 individual shareholders and 1,600 HSL members equals 4,000 shareholders in total.
In my scenario STF's shares haven't been sold following his passing because they are of no interest to anybody because they wont add up to being 'owner' of Hibernian Football Club, so they are sitting gathering dust in the family bank vault, owned by a family who by this time have no interest in pumping any of their wealth into Hibs, not even to the point of acting as guarantor for loans or credit as STF has done so often.
Say then 'fan owned' Hibs are faced with needing to raise say two million pounds due to some unforeseen situation, or perhaps because ST sales have taken a sudden big dip ..and say in that scenario we have no player on the books worth anything like two million quid we can sell.
Without a sugar daddy owner willing to pump his, her or their personal wealth into the club, where will that two million quid come from? Will the board of Hibs be asking the 4000 shareholders to come up with an average of £500 each at short notice? If that's not the case where will this 'fan owned' football club get the money from?
Even worse ... If that 2,400 figure does include every individual HSL member you would be looking at an average contribution from each shareholder of £833.
Well? .... Because without a satisfactory answer to these questions in all honesty the thought of overall fan control of the club gives me the bloody fear.Last edited by NAE NOOKIE; 23-11-2017 at 01:19 AM.
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23-11-2017 06:32 AM #140This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
That action, of course, might be to take out external finance. A company with substantial unencumbered assets, with (by that time, hopefully) no debt, would be a decent proposition for a lender.
In short, we'd be doing what most companies have to do and living in the real world, within our means.
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23-11-2017 07:14 AM #141
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How can we bring the pro, sceptical, anti, yet to be convinced there is a problem together, together so we can amass a much larger contribution to HSL?
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23-11-2017 08:13 AM #142This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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23-11-2017 08:14 AM #143This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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23-11-2017 08:19 AM #144
Interesting debate on this thread which was the entire point of it, with a deliberately provocative title and input on my part.
I get entirely that many people aren't interested in fan ownership, I am not either as a principle but there is middle ground.
What I would like is for the magical 26% of the share holding to be held in a fans trust (as opposed to individual shares as you can never be sure who is buying them and in what quantities)
If we could achieve that then we could say with certainty that the club could never ever be taken away from us as Wallet tried to do.
I get entirely that folk would want to buy their own shares too, I have, but I have and also want HSL to get to that 26% and the sooner the better and for that reason contribute to HSL despite my reservations about fan ownership.
What though is fan ownership really, I suspect we will see very little difference, the principle one being that the directors will be nominated pretty much equally by STF's 49% and then by independent / HSL shareholders 51%.
For that reason alone it is in my view critical that HSL acquire 26% to guarantee that they can prevent anything that is against the supporters interests.
Some will argue with some justification that the individual shareholders would deal with that, right now I couldn't say who owned the shares or in what quantities and wouldn't be prepared to trust to luck that it would all work out okay in the end.
It's not for me to tell folk what to do but the clear direction of travel for the club is to have 51% of the shares fan owned and I would really encourage folk who don't want fan ownership to recognise that it will happen and contribute accordingly to protect the club's future as I have outlined above,
When that 26% is reached I will quite happily cease contributing to HSL and we can then find a way to redirect those contributions direct to the club, but 26% is very much the target IMO.
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23-11-2017 08:20 AM #145
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Once HSL have bought all the shares they are able to they will keep collecting money and become the lender of last resort.
If we (the club) have cash flow problems or the board need a few quid to buy the next SJM then they would chat with the HSL board and they would decide whether to lend it or gift it in the same way as STF does now.
Of course exactly how that worked would be up to the members of HSL.
It's not too fanciful, many including myself would be happy to continue contributing and how knows, those saying they don't want anything to do with shares might join in.
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23-11-2017 10:25 AM #146
NN -
There are apparently 2000 or so companies listed in the London stock exchange - none of which are in any kind of a sweat because they don't have a single big controlling interest to act as sugar daddy in the event of them being suddenly landed with some totally unexpected bill.
So, who's right, you or them?
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23-11-2017 10:34 AM #147This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Whilst we have benefitted from that in the past, we are slowly evolving and moving away from that. The idea of living in the real world, commercially and strategically, is IMO a welcome development. It's not without its dangers, of course, but we have a regime in place that will recognise them and make the appropriate arrangements.
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23-11-2017 10:43 AM #148This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Indeed, and in addition we also have a big source of funds waiting in the wings - witness FOH who stood up to the plate when Hearts were close to the edge.
And looking at this thread shows that there is a willingness to give extra support for the club and that such willingness would only increase if the club were in any kind of peril.
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23-11-2017 10:54 AM #149This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
If tickets are not picked up, Hibs contact the groups concerned in case they can't use their allocation but they reallocate on the Fri night/Sat morning wherever possible so the tickets aren't wastedLast edited by FranckSuzy; 23-11-2017 at 02:17 PM.
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23-11-2017 11:02 AM #150This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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