Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL

[Green_one]

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I do pay in to HSL but I do so in the knowledge that it is no longer a route to full fan ownership. .

I am not certain the Hearts position is better, as they are effectively paying off a debt to an outside entity. Though admittedly that has helped them build a stand, that target is even further away. While our funding all goes to the team.

Perhaps the issue is only mentioning shares, which are largely immaterial. Could we for example provide multiple options that tick other people boxes?

1. Share ownership
2. Transfer fund - goes directly to buying / paying extra players
3. Youth set up - use to improve youth player(s) -name them
4. Infrastructure - used for ground or training facilities.
5. Kids - used for providing tickets, school contacts play areas etc.

And you are allowed to blend them. Then report frequently on what the funds are and what has been done with them. INVEST in an area that attracts YOU. Simples. I would contribute to something like this.

[Firestarter]

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Do you know what %age of FOH funds are indefinitely committed to the footballing side?

Not looking for an argument just trying to highlight the fundamental difference between the schemes.

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No idea at all. All I know is they have a lot more contributors than us big time.

[Bighoose]

HSL and HOF started out for completely different reasons. This is why the base numbers are different.

I contribute to HSL because I wanted to give some additional funds to the club.

Couple of mates who i go to the games with could easily afford to match my contribution but chose not to as they think their ST is enough money to be giving the club.

Guys I know who contribute to HOF did it originally to help their club survive, they continue to contribute now as its just something they do.

Agree tho that HSL could do far more to attract new contributions There must be a number of Hibs fans who dont know HSL exist or else have forgotten that they do.

[simple]

I've just copied the below from another thread where i've posted about this and have also done so in the past.


Out of me and my mates we have about 10 season tickets, and I'm the only one who pays into HSL.

I've mentioned it on a few occasions in the pub and many have said they would put in £5, £10 or £15 a month, but never get around to doing it.

If this scheme was properly driven I believe we would majorly increase our contributors.

However I think hibs don't like to be seen as having the begging bowl out, unlike another club who have the begging bowl out at every opportunity.

I think HSL could be much more successful with the correct drive, marketing, regular updates etc

[Bostonhibby]

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No idea at all. All I know is they have a lot more contributors than us big time.

Unless Budge asks for a variation such as to build a stand, or cover running costs when they couldn't pay the bills it's currently zero as they're hoping to save up enough to pay their debts to her plus whatever they might have to do next.

Incidentally I'm not decrying their terrific effort which was needed just to save their club. It's an interesting comparison with Sevco fans for example. If I was a yamsaver with a business head on I'd be wondering what's next? When do we get one share and how much will we end up having to save up to pay the owner in the end.

Once they're clear of all that they might start up a fund just for the footballing side.

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[Bostonhibby]

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HSL and HOF started out for completely different reasons. This is why the base numbers are different.

I contribute to HSL because I wanted to give some additional funds to the club.

Couple of mates who i go to the games with could easily afford to match my contribution but chose not to as they think their ST is enough money to be giving the club.

Guys I know who contribute to HOF did it originally to help their club survive, they continue to contribute now as its just something they do.

Agree tho that HSL could do far more to attract new contributions There must be a number of Hibs fans who dont know HSL exist or else have forgotten that they do.

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[Keith_M]

Their club was in danger of extinction and they rallied to the cause. We would (and have previously) done exactly the same.

They've managed to keep this going, presumably as they're desperate to never get into the same fix again, which is perfectly understandable.

Hibs, on the other hand, were at no time in dire straits financially and there doesn't seem to be the same level of desire to actually own the club, presumably because most people think the current owner is trustworthy.


Hibs are currently in a much better state than they are when it comes to football matters, and own both our completed stadium and training ground. Extra income would be nice but they're not going to keep this going indefinitely, so I'm not too worried about it.

[G B Young]

How many Hibs fans actually want fan ownership? How many Hearts fans actually want it for that matter?

I think HSL got an initial kick-start due to the disillusionment with relegation/the perceived lack of direction within the club and the desire for change among many fans, but since the transformation spearheaded by Leann Dempster I'd suggest the appetite for 'takeover' has diluted and that most are by and large delighted with the way the club is now being run.

That's not to say HSL can't play an important role, but it needs to make its presence felt more effectively (and I don't doubt the club realise this). I signed up and paid my tenner a month (or whatever sum it was) until I'd reached a certain sum. I think I might have been asked to renew, but can't honestly remember. Basically apart from a couple of letters from Kenny McAskill, I didn't get much in the way of feedback. If this is a body with serious ambitions to eventually secure a majority stake in the club it needs to up its game and make that prospect sound genuinely worth working towards.

As others have suggested, if HSL were to restate its key purpose and make it clear that it was simply a vehicle by which fans could pay a certain sum each month directly into the transfer kitty that would be fine with me.

[StevieCowan]

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Fans can own the club without running it.

Pay £10 a month to HSL and it goes directly to the team.

I don’t what fans owning the club, looks at the crap that the fans rep take on a daily basis.

Keep the model as we have it.

[WhileTheChief..]

It used to be that going to Easter Road as a walk up or ST holder was good enough.

Now we are being asked to donate money on top of this.

I don’t want to own a part of the club and I dread the thought of us being totally fan owned.

We have a finance director and a marketing director on the board. It’s up to them to maximise revenues.

Me paying £10 a month is not going to change a damn thing.

My view on this from the beginning was simply that STF wants shot of the club and this seemed like an easy way to do so in the absence of anyone buying the club outright from him.

Regularly see posts on here about how much of he club the fans own in comparison to Hearts or Motherwell etc. as if us owning more is somehow better.

Celtic are a PLC and are doing fine.
Aberdeen have a single owner and are doing fine.
Motherwell are owned by their fans and are doing fine.

There’s no one magical way to run a club. We seem to be doing fine as we are!

[StevieCowan]

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For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.

Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from
NL and a link to sign up.

[Bostonhibby]

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Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from
NL and a link to sign up.

I think the club have now "capped" the number of tickets leithlinks can buy.

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[hhibs]

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The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

Agreed,I would think though it needs root and branch reorganisation,to me ,it has thus far been pretty woeful.

[hhibs]

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Mikey, with massive respect to LL on what it achieves and as a contributor there comes a point where having kids ST’s every weekend costs the club money when it comes around to “sell out games”

One for the fans reps..on the next ST renewal form put an option tick a box for £10 per month DD and let’s see if there’s an appetite.

Or email out to all ST holders now with a message from


NL and a link to sign up.

Not just to season ticket holders there is a much wider audience that should be targeted.There are many Hibees that are not ,for various reasons season ticket holders, who would contribute,we need to use a broader database than that.

[GreenOnions]

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I would think most Hibs fans would agree that the concept of the HSL scheme itself is a good one. However, the issue is that the marketing of HSL leaves a lot to be desired. If they improved that I have no doubt contributions would increase. They have already missed some key opportunities to do this such as after the SC win etc...

I can't disagree with this. We need to acknowledge that it's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain but wouldn't it be great if HSL could really be given a promotions and marketing overhaul?

These are tough times financially for a lot of us but I'm sure there are some who could and would contribute to HSL and who would be encouraged to do so by a really positive and targeted promo campaign which was ongoing.

[BSEJVT]

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For those of you willing to pay towards the playing fund with no return, Leith Links does that and it also gets kids along to games.

Its not quite as simple as that any more Mikey

Hibs have had to cap the number of KFK tickets available and I believe (Suzy will confirm one way or another) that we currently subscribe more than there are tickets available to buy

[Bmcchis]

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I can't disagree with this. We need to acknowledge that it's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain but wouldn't it be great if HSL could really be given a promotions and marketing overhaul?

These are tough times financially for a lot of us but I'm sure there are some who could and would contribute to HSL and who would be encouraged to do so by a really positive and targeted promo campaign which was ongoing.

Can anybody tell me who the payments are actually made i.e. On your bank statement?

[JeMeSouviens]

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Couldn't agree more

There is no way that folk should be brow beaten into such a scheme and I am not advocating such a thing for a second.

There are however people who would like to or be willing to do more to help Hibs if someone would make it easier for them, communicate with them and encourage them to do so.

HSL does none of these things, in my experience it wont even reply to correspondence.

There was I believe a recent meeting, which I couldn't attend as I was out the country.

At the very least they could have reported on that and used that to drive a relaunch.

If my business was being criticised as often as HSL are on here I would engage with those criticising and find out their issues and try and engage their help or at least their ideas to do better.

Its almost as if they don't care enough to do so or aren't resourced enough to engage.

We seem to have a few figureheads lending their name to it and other than that it seems to be run with les vim and vigour than your local bowling club by folk who don't appear to have the time to do more.

It seems to be completely lacking in cohesion, structure or resource.

The prospect of any of those currently involved taking HSL's seat on the board leaves me utterly cold and afraid. (BTW for the avoidance of doubt I don't include the "figureheads" in that statement but by the same token I wouldn't want just a figurehead representing me anyway, I would want someone willing and able to do so and appropriately qualified for the task by other than their "figurehead" status)

Maybe the club put restrictions on them promoting themselves (although I cant see why they would)

I have never, not once, seen anyone or anything from HSL at ER trying to recruit new members

Even leaflets at the turnstiles would be something

IMO HSL needs to communicate better is full intentions, short medium and long term.

If it is not the vehicle to enable those who don't wish fan ownership or who want to continue funding beyond maximum fan ownership being achieved then we need to come up with one and pronto.

I wont sit back and in years to come listen to my grandchildren ask me why we seldom beat Hearts (if the worm turns again) and glibly tell them that I couldn't be bothered agitating for an organisation that would have enabled us to do so.

Fair comment, and Big_Franck.

I do agree that if we're going to have a scheme, then we should be flogging the backside off it.

[BSEJVT]

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Can anybody tell me who the payments are actually made i.e. On your bank statement?

Gocardless Ltd

[Phil MaGlass]

Just an idea, maybe when the next ST release for next year comes out we can have a little tick the box on the ST form which says would you like to donate

5
10
20
30
50
Other.

Many (from what I have read) on here would like it made simpler.
Set a stall out at one of the next home games where folk can walk up and register.
Or better still put it on the club website front page. Like the annoying pop ups for Half Season Tickets..

[Sioux]

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I can't disagree with this. We need to acknowledge that it's easy to sit on the sidelines and complain but wouldn't it be great if HSL could really be given a promotions and marketing overhaul?

These are tough times financially for a lot of us but I'm sure there are some who could and would contribute to HSL and who would be encouraged to do so by a really positive and targeted promo campaign which was ongoing.

If people want to contribute through HSL they should do so only if they want to own shares. Anything else is not within HSL's mandate. Don't confuse FOH with what we've got. FOH's remit was to take donations from fans to buy out budge, and contribute to working capital of circa £1m. They've totally ignored what the fans initially signed up to and moved the goalposts, so that those contributions could be used to fund the building of the stand. That was contrary to what FOH was set up to do, and it should be remembered that their ultimate goal was full fan ownership within 5 years from exiting administration. But as usual 'we are hertz, we'll do it our way'. If that's the way they want to operate, that's up to them.

It's been said a hundred times before, if the yams hadn't coughed up they'd be dead and buried. We didn't and don't have that gun to our heads, and that is a major factor in all of this.

But lets not get at our own club and HSL for not having a (Ponzi) scheme like they have.

[Bostonhibby]

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If people want to contribute through HSL they should do so only if they want to own shares. Anything else is not within HSL's mandate. Don't confuse FOH with what we've got. FOH's remit was to take donations from fans to buy out budge, and contribute to working capital of circa £1m. They've totally ignored what the fans initially signed up to and moved the goalposts, so that those contributions could be used to fund the building of the stand. That was contrary to what FOH was set up to do, and it should be remembered that their ultimate goal was full fan ownership within 5 years from exiting administration. But as usual 'we are hertz, we'll do it our way'. If that's the way they want to operate, that's up to them.

It's been said a hundred times before, if the yams hadn't coughed up they'd be dead and buried. We didn't and don't have that gun to our heads, and that is a major factor in all of this.

But lets not get at our own club and HSL for not having a (Ponzi) scheme like they have.

A great explanation of how the scheme's are entirely different.

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[chippy]

Things will come to a head sooner rather than later. The ownership model will have to be planned for in the event of the tailing off of the involvement of STF. Who knows what will happen when he is no longer the main owner and guarantor. We will be vulnerable to predators if the fans don’t increase their ownership stake. We simply can’t risk chancers coming along as we are I’d say quite an attractive proposition currently. Investors with good intentions and decent funds don’t grow on trees. The more fans in a membership scheme contributing regularly is the only way to stave off sharks and opportunists. With a strong membership base we’d be in a good position to negotiate with prospective investors on a shared ownership basis whilst always protecting our key assets. At the moment we’re safe but I’d say from comments above somewhat complacent. STF and possibly his family will not be around forever. Tim for transition planning and an upgraded HSL but we need to bring in all the factions who have criticised HSL as well- needs to be a unity of purpose.

[Ozyhibby]

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If people want to contribute through HSL they should do so only if they want to own shares. Anything else is not within HSL's mandate. Don't confuse FOH with what we've got. FOH's remit was to take donations from fans to buy out budge, and contribute to working capital of circa £1m. They've totally ignored what the fans initially signed up to and moved the goalposts, so that those contributions could be used to fund the building of the stand. That was contrary to what FOH was set up to do, and it should be remembered that their ultimate goal was full fan ownership within 5 years from exiting administration. But as usual 'we are hertz, we'll do it our way'. If that's the way they want to operate, that's up to them.

It's been said a hundred times before, if the yams hadn't coughed up they'd be dead and buried. We didn't and don't have that gun to our heads, and that is a major factor in all of this.

But lets not get at our own club and HSL for not having a (Ponzi) scheme like they have.

FoH is no more a Ponzi scheme than HSL is. Does anyone ever look up what a Ponzi scheme is before using the term?


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[Bostonhibby]

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FoH is no more a Ponzi scheme than HSL is. Does anyone ever look up what a Ponzi scheme is before using the term?


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I saw the use of the term here as tongue in cheek I must admit. Especially since you're right, it's never accurately cited in relation to Hibs or the current hearts model.

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[Sioux]

Spot on sir.

[green day]

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I saw the use of the term here as tongue in cheek I must admit. Especially since you're right, it's never accurately cited in relation to Hibs or the current hearts model.

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It wasn't used tongue in cheek, it was used by a group of influential (in social media terms) hibs fans with an anti Farmer agenda.

Lots of people were put off HSL at the beginning due to this.

HSL needs a crystal clear relaunch stating that 100% of the money goes to buy players etc.......please sign up here for £10, £20 whatever.

[Bostonhibby]

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It wasn't used tongue in cheek, it was used by a group of influential (in social media terms) hibs fans with an anti Farmer agenda.

Lots of people were put off HSL at the beginning due to this.

HSL needs a crystal clear relaunch stating that 100% of the money goes to buy players etc.......please sign up here for £10, £20 whatever.

Sorry. I meant by Sioux above.

If you look me up you'll see I was quick to point out the reality of the situation when the group you mention were bandying about the term in ignorance.

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[green day]

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Sorry. I meant by Sioux above.

If you look me up you'll see I was quick to point out the reality of the situation when the group you mention were bandying about the term in ignorance.

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No bother 👍 Just back in and didn't catch up on whole thread.

I wonder if any of those people would be willing to accept they were wrong 🤔🤔

[OfficialHSL]

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Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

We do try hard not to get too involved in Supporter threads as it can easily lead to misunderstandings which are not intended, however, as this thread relates directly to HSL we hope you don't mind our participation.

Please remember that your Directors are just the same as you , ordinary supporters. We too would like to see much more financial support for our Club, particularly at what has been a difficult period. We are absolutely delighted with what our 1650 Members have been able to achieve and of course wish we could at the very least double this number. That however is up to our Supporters. We , the Supporters must decide for ourselves what we want for our Club and what ambitions we have for our Club. We don't feel HSL has failed since a very substantial sum of money has been injected into the Club and our success on the park has definitely been influenced by this money. If it helps we will respond to the other items raised on this thread.