Spot on, and the acceptance by many - of year after year of failure, contributed to the inevitable conclusion of us crashing out of the top league. If we had been demanding more, rather than meekly accepting years of mismanagement, a revolving door of bad appointments etc it might not have come to that.This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Results 271 to 298 of 298
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30-11-2017 06:44 PM #271
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30-11-2017 06:55 PM #272This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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30-11-2017 10:04 PM #273This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
It would be helpful to this threads purpose if non HSL related discussions like this could be held on a separate thread please?
Part of the reason for the failures of the past was that we couldn't compete financially as result of the redevelopment of the infrastructure, I have no desire to revisit the rights or wrongs of that debate in this thread as it is not the purpose I had in mind in starting this thread.
What I will say though is that we run the risks of voluntarily returning ourselves to those days as a result of our complacency.
I grew up watching the Tornadoes and it never occurred to me at the time that it wasn't always going to be like that. Admittedly I was 10 at the time :-)
Things are good just now but if the lessons of the past 45 years have taught me anything it is that this wont necessarily remain the case and is unlikely to do so without action on our part.
We have an opportunity now to push on from a position of strength, but folk seek reluctant to embrace that opportunity by helping HSL.
I readily accept that many people simply cant afford to do so and there is no-one in the world who could have a problem with that.
I think with some of the others who don't support HSL that it is complacency.
But it would far more informative for HSL to know exactly the reasons that folk wont support HSL in order to see whether there is anything they can do about it.
Feel free to add them to this thread.
BTW did you know that after subscribing to HSL using the links provided earlier in the thread at the subscription rate selected that you can e-mail HSL and ask them to change your subscription to whatever you want, including as little as £1 per month.
HSL are grateful for each and every contribution and someone paying £1 isn't less valued than someone paying £100, it all goes towards the team and there is no tiered membership structure.
Hearts raise in 1 month broadly what it takes us a year to raise. I am sick hearing why that is the case as it doesn't change that it is the case and wont change when the acquire full ownership as it is very much built on the premise that contributions continue beyond that.
Thankfully HSL contributions can also now continue UFN, but we have a lot of work to do in getting those who once contributed to restart doing so and then close the gap to 8000 members
I also know that unless we step up to meet the challenge we will live to regret it in the years to come.
Do what you can to support Hibs by supporting HSL.
Your donations matter but wont individually make that significant a difference in the march towards partial fan ownership, which will happen regardless, so I would have to say that as far as I am concerned that is a smokescreen for not donating.
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30-11-2017 10:30 PM #274
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They HAD to signup or they’re club died and got to applaud them for that
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30-11-2017 10:36 PM #275This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Will pm you as happy to do anything i can to help out even though i live in Paisley
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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30-11-2017 10:39 PM #276
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- Jul 2017
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- 2,287
For years and years and just look at the James Collins thread all we have went on about is how they where spending money they didn't have, neglected the stadium and training ground as a comfort zone when we sold our best players to finance such stuff and they had the better team on pitch.
Now we are ahead of them on the pitch, no longer they don't have the cheating financial advantage YET the majority of our support is happy for them to gain a financial advantage over us for the future years to come by letting them contribute money into their club monthly and aren't willing to do similar.
I don't care if the excuse "they had to" they don't any more yet their support to their club is dwarfing what we give ours. Why? Why sit there and let this happen? Just as the Hibernian board sat for 10 years, took our support for granted and ended up relegated.
The club is doing brilliantly just now, longer picture we could get bigger and stronger and the potential is there. HSL was launched for perhaps negative reasons but now it could be used as a massive positive.
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01-12-2017 05:44 AM #277This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
We laugh at them for their 5-1 comfort blanket but for far too many Hibs Supporters the fact that they HAD to is our comfort blanket and is continuously trotted out as an excuse why they don't contribute.
They might have HAD to at the outset by they don't have to any longer, that immediate danger has passed, they are now doing it because they WANT to.
Its only relevance to us is that in the years to come it will give them a huge advantage unless we step up to the plate.
I would rather applaud our support for doing something they didn't have to and for rallying behind the team because they WANTED to.
But is seems many are unwilling to do so.Last edited by BSEJVT; 01-12-2017 at 06:40 AM.
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01-12-2017 06:42 AM #278This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
It's time to stand up and be counted
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke
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01-12-2017 06:48 AM #279
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01-12-2017 06:55 AM #280This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
It's bloody typical of the mentality of some Hibs Supporters that they would take the time to criticise something they weren't interested in being part of rather than accept that it was for the common good and let folk trying to get behind the club, get on with it.
Thanks for your input though.Last edited by BSEJVT; 01-12-2017 at 07:10 AM.
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01-12-2017 07:03 AM #281This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
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01-12-2017 07:15 AM #282
I’m not a supporter of fan ownership. You asked for reasons why so here’s mine, although I’m sure it’s been mentioned before.
My worry is that when we achieve whatever % is required and HSL move to have votes as to who gets apppnted to the board.
To me this wil simply result in one or two popular Hibs fans getting the nod in much the same way as our existing fan reps were appointed.
No qualifications or experience but popular in the Hibs club or on Facebook just doesn’t cut it for me.
I see zero benefit to being fan owned other hand being able to say it’s so.
What would change? Would it lead us to the promised land? What exactly is the end game once it’s achieved?
If HSL was a vehicle for fans to contribute extra without any shares being dished out then fine. For those that want to pay more then crack on.
I don’t want to pay any more than the 2 STs I buy each year. I won’t apologise for that, I’m doing my bit.
I admire those of you who feel so passionately about this but you have to accept that out of 16k + fans there are going to be numerous different opinions.
I hope this doesn’t start to create a divide amongst fans. “I’m a better fan than you because...”!!
Peace.
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01-12-2017 07:25 AM #283
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I don't see fan ownership as a way to take the club to the next level, but a way to ensure we never end up in the wrong hands.
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01-12-2017 07:32 AM #284This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I have wanted fans to own a meaningful share for reasons that others of a similar view have outlined too. To have a presence on the board with a shareholding behind it to offer a defence to mercer type situations and other approaches that we don't like, I guess how that person is chosen is for another day and for a wider process perhaps to be applied but my instinct is that I wouldn't see the current fans rep route as the way to go.
"I did not need any persuasion to play for such a great club, the Hibs result is still one of the first I look for"
Sir Matt Busby
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01-12-2017 07:39 AM #285This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Firstly from my side this isn't and never should be about being a better fan, I would be horrified if I thought this was where this was going.
It is and should be a vehicle for those that want to and more importantly are able to, to voluntarily contribute monies to the club.
I hear exactly your comments on fan ownership and they are not that far removed from my position.
What I would say though is that it is coming and that there is nothing we can do about it.
Fan ownership will change very little, other than removing the possibility of going to the majority share holder for emergency funding in hard times, but it is evident by his decision to go down this route that STF, not unreasonably, isn't up for that any longer.
Effectively little will change STF and his nominees will control 49% of the share holding and there will be enough of the minor shareholders who would support his position that he will effectively retain control.
We will need to see what the election process for HSL board directors is when the time comes, I believe that there are enough good people involved around HSL that we will get a decent outcome.
I think HSL is important for 4 main reasons:
1) It raises monies for the club to help enable us to compete on the field. This will continue after the shareholding is complete and IMO it would be a great pity if folk who were prepared to consider contributing wouldn't do so until the share issue was resolved. It seems to me like cutting off their nose to spite their face
2) IMO we need to have that 26% held in a fans owned co-operative to utterly secure the ownership of the club going forward
3) We have been extraordinarily lucky to have had such a benevolent owner as STF at our helm for such a long time, but like it or not none of us live forever. I know nothing of his heirs of their intentions so am in no way casting aspirations against them, but you only need to look at Dundee United post Eddie Thomson to see what could go wrong. Diluting ownership is in everyone (including STF's interests)
4) Around 10% of the shares owned by "Hibs Fans" are owned by nominee companies. Again I know nothing of them and their intentions but it isn't too far a stretch to imagine that those shares become available in a block and suddenly someone has a significant shareholding and uses that to launch a bid. Getting HSL to 26% makes that a worthless play
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01-12-2017 07:42 AM #286
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01-12-2017 07:55 AM #287This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
"Christ, do we need an excuse not to join HSL, now? It's bad enough having to explain every non attendance at a match to the uberfan police"
You then reference one word in a 10 page debate where I said (and I stand by it) that folk use the fact they had to as an excuse as to why they didn't contribute to HSL
I have never asked for folks excuses and never will, it is up to them whether they contribute or not.
I simply make the point that using the "they had to argument" is an easy get out.
Maybe I am mistaken but the whole idea of having input is that through it we get to a point where we can benefit the club.
But if you want to moan about folks efforts to help the club crack on, its water of a ducks back.
My agenda is to have more people support HSL which will secure our long term ownership and in the short term provide more monies to the manager
If your input is as it is then I not sure what you are trying to achieve through it or what your agenda is?Last edited by BSEJVT; 01-12-2017 at 11:19 AM.
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01-12-2017 10:04 AM #288
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- Apr 2012
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- 42
I paid my £225 initial membership up and then became a lapsed contributor. There was a fair amount of negative chat at the time about where the money was going and then there was a stooshie about the loyalty points scheme. In general I would say the profile of HSL also dipped in the media and on social networks and I have kind of ignored it.
This thread has reawakened me however and I have been really impressed by the OP and the points you have made. The wishful thinking that the FOH money would dry up once Hearts hit the brown stuff has not happened, they know they have to keep the club going as they re-develop Tiny and then pay back AB, they have no option. I agree with the OP, the opportunity to maintain our advantage over them is now and a re-launch/rebrand/rethink of HSL is needed to achieve this.
I have had a look at the website and re-read the original Q&A’s that were held on .net and the bounce. Here are a few points from the info I have read;
Can HSL confirm that none of the money they receive from supporters to buy shares will be used to pay off the debt to the holding company?
All of the funds received from supporters will be handed to the Club. HSL in return will receive shares in HFC. The Board of HFC will use these funds as they see fit. The Club’s new mortgage will be paid, as has always been the case in the past, from all of the various income streams that the club has.
So the cash goes to the club and this is treated as ‘new money’ over and above the budgeted income Hibs have used to repay the interest free mortgage back to STF. Seems straightforward and money isn’t going straight into directors pockets.
Can my HSL membership be handed down to my family in the same way that my Hibs shares can?
Yes, subject to the normal Membership criteria being met.
Nice touch, I had forgotten about this.
Once the £2.5m has been raised, will HSL continue to seek the annual membership fee? If so, will this be done with a view to a subsequent share issue? If not, how will membership be determined?
No. HSL can only collect funds if there are shares to buy. Membership is for life subject to meeting the Membership criteria.
I hadn’t realised this, so in order for the money from HSL to continue to benefit the club once the target of 51% of available shares are with the fans (private plus HSL) a change of the Articles of Association will be required?
Are there any advantages to those like me in becoming an HSL member?
We will have a tangible influence that will be democratically governed. When we achieve a 20% stake we can elect a Director to the HFC Board. If we achieve a 26% stake we have an overall blocking vote on major issues.
Can someone explain why reaching the 26% mark is significant if Hibs had a dodgy period?
Do HSL have 51% of shares in the club allocated to them regardless of fans purchasing shares, or is 51% the total volume of shares available to all current fan ownership routes?
No, HSL does not have 51% of the shares allocated to it. Existing fans already own about 1% of the shares and a further 50% will be made available. How much HSL acquires will be determined by the take up rate of fans choosing to buy directly from the Club and the generosity and ambition of those fans choosing to donate to HSL.
Is the 51% for fans more a symbolic issue then? Is acquiring 26% and a blocking vote more important?
Will control of 51% of shares give HSL the ability to appoint directors without the consent of minority shareholders, and will HSL or an HSL-controlled board of directors have the power to remove the chairman?
HSL cannot acquire 51% shareholding as existing fans already hold around 1%, unless existing shareholders elect to sell those shares to HSL.
Should HSL achieve a 20% stake in the Club we will be able to nominate a Director to the Club Board. Should all supporters respond positively to this initiative the shareholding of HFC Holdings will be diluted down to 49%.
If/when HSL have 26% - 50% we will have 1 Director nominated to the board. STF will have, presumably, enough shares still to have a seat on the board. How would the board be nominated in order to run the club going forward?
Finally from me, as a direct result of the OP and this thread, I’ve decided to re-start my donations to HSL.
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01-12-2017 11:17 AM #289This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Last edited by BSEJVT; 01-12-2017 at 11:23 AM.
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01-12-2017 03:17 PM #290This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Yes, we think it does. Leeann has on a number of occasions confirmed that there are a number of players in our squad who simply would not have been here without the additional funding provided by HSL donations. We would encourage everyone to spread this message. The existing principal shareholder has provided an opportunity to have proceeds from the share issue directed to the football Club, not existing shareholders. as we have said before, while money can never guarantee success it does improve our prospects.
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01-12-2017 03:33 PM #291This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
We completely agree.
There is little point in comparing our respective starting points as circumstances were different.
What is interesting is that after providing almost £4m of working capital to save the Club the 8000 ordinary Hearts fans voted by a majority of 97% to provide £3m towards the cost of their new stand. They did not have to do that, they could have used that £3m to complete the purchase of the Club.
We believe this is fundamentally about ambition. Football fans are notorious for having football ambitions that are greater than their finances. Our principal shareholder has supported this Club for many years and the decision taken by the Club Board almost three years ago was about giving us, the fans, the opportunity to demonstrate our ambition.
It is no secret that their is little money in Scottish Football and all Clubs ( with one exception ) find it difficult from year to year. HSL is an opportunity for fans who can spare a little extra money to help provide much needed extra financial support to our Club.
HSL
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01-12-2017 03:40 PM #292This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Many of our Members feel the same way and contribute for one simple reason, to help the Manager improve the product on the park.
We said from day one that we are not a "campaign group". The Board made the decision to issue more shares to raise capital and give fans the opportunity to take an ownership stake. What that stake is will be determined by us, the supporters. If it is of any interest, the current HSL Directors have been primarily motivated by simply getting extra funding into our Club and if possible achieving a 26% stake to help another Mercer type situation.
HSL
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01-12-2017 03:42 PM #293This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Couldn't put it better.
HSL
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01-12-2017 03:55 PM #294This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
We have been urging fellow supporters for the last two and a half years to join HSL and many have. While there have been a number of obstacles along the way our main observation has been that most supporters are complacent. We mean that in the innocent sense. Most fans feel that the Club is awash with money and that there is no need to provide any extra help.
Of course it is true to say that the Club is financially stable however, like most other Clubs, we are competing in an environment with little commercial money circulating. Recently published Accounts for our competitors gives an idea what we are up against. Clearly many fans are already doing their best by attending games and they simply don's have any additional money. We would hope however that we do have some more fans who can and are willing to provide some additional help.
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01-12-2017 04:04 PM #295This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
Can we start of by adding our thanks for your enthusiastic support for the cause. Looking through this thread it demonstrates the benefit of such Forums. Some comments are provocative and sometimes people offer conflicting views. Above all however it seems to have helped tease out some misunderstandings about HSL and indeed about the very concept of "fan ownership".
We are delighted to report that since you started this thread we have attracted 8 new Members and 6 existing monthly contributors resuming their Direct Debits. We have also had 4 Members who had joined as a result of a lump sum choosing to initiate a regular monthly contribution.
We will continue to work through the thread to ensure that every query is answered.
HSL
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01-12-2017 04:16 PM #296
The HSL presence on this thread is great, but what's really needed (I feel) is a more visible proactive and concerted digital media presence via Facebook/Twitter etc to promote HSL on an ongoing basis.
These days, the odd email blast or article on the club website aren't going to cut it.
I get that HSL is run by volunteers and wants to keep overheads low etc but in the longer term a spot of sensible investment on the advertising and marketing side will most likely see the overall health of HSL above where it will get to with the status quo being maintained.
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01-12-2017 04:16 PM #297This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
I cant tell you how happy I am to hear that this has had a positive effect which was always the intention
Especial thanks to those that have listened to the ramblings of an old man and grabbed the bull by the horns and started / restarted contributing.
Hopefully it is the start of some momentum.
All that matters is that Hibs benefit from this and continue to do so.
Lets keep this thread on the front page and keep the debate and momentum going.
GGTTH
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01-12-2017 04:23 PM #298This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
My children tell me that HSL's twitter and Facebook presence is pretty good, but they are not mediums that I use so I wouldn't know.
Even Hibs Net doesn't represent much of a percentage of season ticket holders / match day supporters and as I don't post on the Bounce I haven't taken this crusade their yet.
Digital Media is lost on me and much of my generation but I am sure that there must be some savvy folk out there who would be happy to donate their time to helping HSL in this area?
Feel free to PM me if there are and I will pass the details onto HSL I am happy to report that in addition to increased contribution numbers a small number of people have come forward and offered to assist HSL already
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