Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL

[BSEJVT]

Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

[easty]

Dunno if I'd go so far as to call it a disgrace, but it's a missed opportunity.

We could get much more money into the club than we do just now, and it's obviously so much easier to get people to sign up when things around the club are so good.

[marinello59]

Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

[CapitalGreen]

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Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

HSL is amateur hour in comparison to how FOH is run.

https://www.foundationofhearts.org/

- Events every couple of months - plot ceremonies where donators receive some sort recognition for their contributions.
- A members area where you can track and adjust how much you are donating.
- A rewards scheme.
- An active an visible Chairperson.

http://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/

- The newest news item is a Youtube Video from March 2016 which has garnered 236 views.
- They haven't tweeted in 2 months.
- Nothing tangible to show for your contribution except a certificate you need to jump through hoops to receive.

[HH81]

Re-launch the day after the next derby win and see if this gives it a big boost?

I am being honest I signed up for the points but have continued to pay it since.

[easty]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

We are doing better than them.

There's no much money in Scottish football though, and this kind of additional income would definitely make a difference, and keep us ahead of them.

[Bostonhibby]

I've always seen HSL as a means of buying shares in the club for those that want to do it that way as opposed to buying direct, or buying at all.

It's also a way of influencing whether or not supporters eventually own the whole club or a meaningful share only. I guess demand will determine that but I favour the latter.

As pointed out we weren't forced to do it to save our bankrupt club though if we ever found ourselves there I'm sure we'd do the same as hearts.

The aims of the two schemes are not comparable but if there are Hibs fans out there who can, and want to, club together and donate funds directly beyond HSL then as a shareholder and HSL member since the beginning I say just do it. I might even join you as I'm comfortable with fans owning a meaningful part of the business but not all of it.

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[Ozyhibby]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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[Lee Marvin]

Agree completely. This is a massive bugbear of mine too.

We are literally ahead/equal of them in every department (infrastructure, team, managerial staff,attendences, directors, Derby record, league, cups, sellable assets etc) except FOH/HSL where they are miles ahead.

If we can close this gap we can dominate for years to come. If we do not, we start each season with a significant financial disadvantage.

What can be done about this?

[StevieCowan]

Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

[Geo_1875]

I don't see it as a failure.

HSL was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club. Along with individual shareholders we now own 34% of the club.

FoH was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club in the form of debt for equity. They currently own zero, zilch, nada but have to keep paying to fund capital investment and running costs.

One day they MIGHT own the club but that day is in the distant future and is by no means guaranteed to come.

I know which one I prefer.

[Geo_1875]

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Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

Fans can own the club without running it.

Pay £10 a month to HSL and it goes directly to the team.

[marinello59]

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We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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So asking fans to set up direct debits during times of austerity isn’t working for them then whilst having a well run club supported by high crowds and season ticket sales is working for us?

[Thecat23]

Can’t say I have been a fan of supporters owning a club. I like the idea of what another poster SC said about paying DD to help the transfer funds. I’d happily pay that!

That’s just me though and I respect others would rather own a share of the club.

[GreenPJ]

The bigger challenge is how you make Scottish Football sustainable and competitive without constantly having to go to the fan base.

There are constant moans about the price of season tickets or prices of games and then on the other hand we want more to contribute to a scheme that whilst it does buy a collective share in the club there is only ever going to be so much influence that share will have and how often would it really get used as a differentiator.

I would not want to get to a point where we have to rely on that additional goodwill of supporters to keep the lights on on a day to day basis.

Clubs have a captive audience and have various facilities at their disposal and I think they need to think smarter as to how they utilise these things to generate 'opportunistic' income that can be used to top-up other regular streams of income.

[Sioux]

HSL is not the problem. Hibs fans are well aware of it's existence. People need to stop wi the attitude that it's always someone else's fault. If fans want to pay they will pay, if not..............

[marinello59]

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The bigger challenge is how you make Scottish Football sustainable and competitive without constantly having to go to the fan base.

There are constant moans about the price of season tickets or prices of games and then on the other hand we want more to contribute to a scheme that whilst it does buy a collective share in the club there is only ever going to be so much influence that share will have and how often would it really get used as a differentiator.

I would not want to get to a point where we have to rely on that additional goodwill of supporters to keep the lights on on a day to day basis.

Clubs have a captive audience and have various facilities at their disposal and I think they need to think smarter as to how they utilise these things to generate 'opportunistic' income that can be used to top-up other regular streams of income.

[BSEJVT]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

That is exactly the type of complacency that will ensure it doesn't last long!

According to the accounts it looks like Cummings went for £500k

They are currently raising enough funds to buy 2 Cummings more than us a year

I accept that is a trite statement but for most of my adult life I have watched Hibs teams lose to financially doped Hearts team's

This is different they are raising 10 times we are legitimately

It will I know be donkeys before this translates to money spent on the team, but by then it will be too late

The time for action is now, when our engagement with the club is as high as it is ever likely to get

[marinello59]

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That is exactly the type of complacency that will ensure it doesn't last long!

According to the accounts it looks like Cummings went for £500k

They are currently raising enough funds to buy 2 Cummings more than us a year

I accept that is a trite statement but for most of my adult life I have watched Hibs teams lose to financially doped Hearts team's

This is different they are raising 10 times we are legitimately

It will I know be donkeys before this translates to money spent on the team, but by then it will be too late

The time for action is now, when our engagement with the club is as high as it is ever likely to get

It’s not complacency. Post 15 sums things up for me.

[BSEJVT]

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Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

Wouldn't disagree with this at all

IMO part of the reason for the failure of HSL is that there is no long term plan or option to do as you suggest

That and the facts that engagement with subscribers either existing or would be and publicity are virtually nil.

It is all just such a wasted opportunity that I fear we will live to regret in the decades to come

[GreenCastle]

I would be interested to know what ages are buying shares.

I know these days many of the younger generation dont see shares as a cool thing to have or in most cases can’t afford extra.

The other issue is as always with money is making sure you feel it’s going to something worthwhile.

If there was a simpler way to donate and support the playing side in sure many more would do that.

I also agree about fan ownership - it’s risky.

Hearts aren’t anywhere near it and I’m still not sure how sustainable it will be in the long run with the way football continues to develop and the millions being spent by teams. Nearly every top team has a rich owner of some sort.

[easty]

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Here’s a thought.

I have no desire whatsoever to see supporters run our football club.

However give me a opportunity to tick a box for a DD at £10 a month which is exclusively for the playing budget and I’d do it tomorrow.

The failure of HSL is that there is no real desire to own shares within the fan base.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Can’t say I have been a fan of supporters owning a club. I like the idea of what another poster SC said about paying DD to help the transfer funds. I’d happily pay that!

That’s just me though and I respect others would rather own a share of the club.

[Firestarter]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

In the long term they will have a constant cash flow though it could be easy for them to stop paying now and leave it to Cludge also.

I've no idea why so many are against putting a tenner a month into making our club grow bigger whilst also being apart of the majority shareholding of it gets the desired amount.

[Bostonhibby]

Aren't FOH actually saving up so they can pay the debt back to the good doctor but the money so far has subsidised running costs and the big maintenance issues culminating in a whole new stand having to be paid for?

This long term objective is further away than at the beginning and it's a huge assumption to say they'll all continue if the aim is ever achieved? The good doctor might want to build something else.

Our family yam was a giver and he didn't hesitate to pull out when Budge "saved" them. When I told him it still had to be paid for it didn't compute.

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[B.H.F.C]

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HSL is not the problem. Hibs fans are well aware of it's existence. People need to stop wi the attitude that it's always someone else's fault. If fans want to pay they will pay, if not..............

There are plenty things in the world that simply exist. Generally, the ones that are more successful market themselves and communicate with people.

HSL seem to merely exist, they're hardly pushing for new members and engaging with existing are they?

[Alan62]

The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

[Firestarter]

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Didn't the HSL help fund the signing of Super John?

[Alan62]

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Didn't the HSL help fund the signing of Super John?

Notionally, yes. Or any player for that matter. The cash goes straight into the budget for playing staff. It isn't ring-fence for one player over any other though.

[B.H.F.C]

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In the long term they will have a constant cash flow though it could be easy for them to stop paying now and leave it to Cludge also.

I've no idea why so many are against putting a tenner a month into making our club grow bigger whilst also being apart of the majority shareholding of it gets the desired amount.

I think a big problem is that people don't really understand what 'fan ownership' actually means, what happens if we ever get to that point and so on.

[Alan62]

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I think a big problem is that people don't really understand what 'fan ownership' actually means, what happens when if we ever get to that point and so on.

Which is precisely why that has to be communicated by HSL and the club.

There has to be a credible model for the future that allows the club to continue to progress.