Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL

[BSEJVT]

Note 20 Analysis of Cash flows

Hibs received £150,000 in the last financial year from the Issue of Ordinary Shares

Now I know many will be along to tell me that at least Hibs supporters or HSL own some share whereas the Gunts don't.

But on the back of respective achievements / performances of the last 3 or 4 seasons how the ****ing hell can FOH be raising virtually 10 times what we are, it is an absolute disgrace.

I know many will be along to tell me they either paid up or died and I get that.

I also get that we may never match them for that reason

But it is ridiculous the disparity.

I moan about it all the time and get criticised by many for doing so which is fair enough, the question is what can be done about it!

[easty]

Dunno if I'd go so far as to call it a disgrace, but it's a missed opportunity.

We could get much more money into the club than we do just now, and it's obviously so much easier to get people to sign up when things around the club are so good.

[marinello59]

Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

[easty]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

We are doing better than them.

There's no much money in Scottish football though, and this kind of additional income would definitely make a difference, and keep us ahead of them.

[OfficialHSL]

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We are doing better than them.

There's no much money in Scottish football though, and this kind of additional income would definitely make a difference, and keep us ahead of them.

Easty

You are absolutely right and we believe this is what motivates most of our active Members. While money can never guarantee success it is fair to say that it has a very significant influence, particularly if being spent wisely.

[Ozyhibby]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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[Lee Marvin]

Agree completely. This is a massive bugbear of mine too.

We are literally ahead/equal of them in every department (infrastructure, team, managerial staff,attendences, directors, Derby record, league, cups, sellable assets etc) except FOH/HSL where they are miles ahead.

If we can close this gap we can dominate for years to come. If we do not, we start each season with a significant financial disadvantage.

What can be done about this?

[OfficialHSL]

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Agree completely. This is a massive bugbear of mine too.

We are literally ahead/equal of them in every department (infrastructure, team, managerial staff,attendences, directors, Derby record, league, cups, sellable assets etc) except FOH/HSL where they are miles ahead.

If we can close this gap we can dominate for years to come. If we do not, we start each season with a significant financial disadvantage.

What can be done about this?

Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

[CapitalGreen]

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Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

Exactly this. The idea of aspiring to achieve what FOH have will be dismissed by a lot of people simply because it is Hearts. If it was any other rival club our size other than them people would be clamoring for us to try and replicate the income FOH is generating for their club.

[BSEJVT]

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Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

This is exactly my point in stirring this issue up

We act now to improve HSL or get left very far behind

Quite how that doesn't translate into a membership drive by HSL highlighting this rather than my ramblings you should explain

The new website must allow people to sign up online and amend their contributions / direct debit details and should IMO include member get member incentives

[Nakedmanoncrack]

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Lee

This is why it is so important to highlight and debate this now. At some point, in the not too distant future, the FOH funding will be directed into their football budget. The will shortly complete their agreed share of the Stadium funding and thereafter will complete the purchase of the Club. Many of their contributors have reached a point where they don't miss their monthly contribution and are likely to continue. This additional stream of income will be invaluable.

I'm already a full member of HSL, could you tell me how to start making contributions in my son's name?
I did it for my older son, but can't remember how! Can't see anything in the FAQs, or any way of doing it as direct debit needs to be in my name, any help appreciated as i'm ready to sign up right now.

[Geo_1875]

I don't see it as a failure.

HSL was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club. Along with individual shareholders we now own 34% of the club.

FoH was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club in the form of debt for equity. They currently own zero, zilch, nada but have to keep paying to fund capital investment and running costs.

One day they MIGHT own the club but that day is in the distant future and is by no means guaranteed to come.

I know which one I prefer.

[Arch Stanton]

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I don't see it as a failure.

HSL was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club. Along with individual shareholders we now own 34% of the club.

FoH was launched as a vehicle for fans to purchase shares in the club in the form of debt for equity. They currently own zero, zilch, nada but have to keep paying to fund capital investment and running costs.

One day they MIGHT own the club but that day is in the distant future and is by no means guaranteed to come.

I know which one I prefer.

It looks like HSL/share selling will have done it's job (ie 51% fan ownership) in another couple of years time. I suppose better marketting of shares could see that reduced a bit but there really isn't any point.

I fully expect that the HSL income stream will continue after the 51% deadline is reached, albeit in some other form - I know I have every intention of continuing contributions.

I also fully expect that interest in Hearts ownership will have started to dwindle long before they have acheived anything like %51 ownership - football fans are a fickle lot in my view and if they don't deliver on the pitch then AB could well be left holding the baby.

[OfficialHSL]

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It looks like HSL/share selling will have done it's job (ie 51% fan ownership) in another couple of years time. I suppose better marketting of shares could see that reduced a bit but there really isn't any point.

I fully expect that the HSL income stream will continue after the 51% deadline is reached, albeit in some other form - I know I have every intention of continuing contributions.

I also fully expect that interest in Hearts ownership will have started to dwindle long before they have acheived anything like %51 ownership - football fans are a fickle lot in my view and if they don't deliver on the pitch then AB could well be left holding the baby.

Crabis

Thank you for your support, many of our Members share your view and have already said they want to continue contributions. The FOH are already on record to say that they plan to carry on after the ownership objectives have been achieved. Why wouldn't they when they could offer the Manager an extra £1m per year for the playing budget ?

[marinello59]

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We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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So asking fans to set up direct debits during times of austerity isn’t working for them then whilst having a well run club supported by high crowds and season ticket sales is working for us?

[GreenPJ]

The bigger challenge is how you make Scottish Football sustainable and competitive without constantly having to go to the fan base.

There are constant moans about the price of season tickets or prices of games and then on the other hand we want more to contribute to a scheme that whilst it does buy a collective share in the club there is only ever going to be so much influence that share will have and how often would it really get used as a differentiator.

I would not want to get to a point where we have to rely on that additional goodwill of supporters to keep the lights on on a day to day basis.

Clubs have a captive audience and have various facilities at their disposal and I think they need to think smarter as to how they utilise these things to generate 'opportunistic' income that can be used to top-up other regular streams of income.

[marinello59]

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The bigger challenge is how you make Scottish Football sustainable and competitive without constantly having to go to the fan base.

There are constant moans about the price of season tickets or prices of games and then on the other hand we want more to contribute to a scheme that whilst it does buy a collective share in the club there is only ever going to be so much influence that share will have and how often would it really get used as a differentiator.

I would not want to get to a point where we have to rely on that additional goodwill of supporters to keep the lights on on a day to day basis.

Clubs have a captive audience and have various facilities at their disposal and I think they need to think smarter as to how they utilise these things to generate 'opportunistic' income that can be used to top-up other regular streams of income.

[CB_NO3]

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We are doing better than them just now because they are failing massively in their recruitment. That won’t always be the case. In the long run, clubs with more to spend do better.


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That theory is bollocks. We have had a top 4/5 Scottish budget ovet the last 20 years and have achieved nothing really.

[brog]

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That theory is bollocks. We have had a top 4/5 Scottish budget ovet the last 20 years and have achieved nothing really.

We've won 2 cups in the last 10 years, that's never happened in our history before. As for the theory being bollocks there's been many studies done to prove the correlation between spend & success. At one point, about 3 or 4 years ago the top 6 or 7 clubs in the EPL matched exactly the top 6 or 7 clubs by spend. Chelsea hadn't won the league for 50 years, bought by RA
they win it the next year. Man C hadn't won the league for 40 years, bought by Sheikh Mansour they win it twice in the next 5 seasons. Coincidence I'm sure.

[BSEJVT]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

That is exactly the type of complacency that will ensure it doesn't last long!

According to the accounts it looks like Cummings went for £500k

They are currently raising enough funds to buy 2 Cummings more than us a year

I accept that is a trite statement but for most of my adult life I have watched Hibs teams lose to financially doped Hearts team's

This is different they are raising 10 times we are legitimately

It will I know be donkeys before this translates to money spent on the team, but by then it will be too late

The time for action is now, when our engagement with the club is as high as it is ever likely to get

[marinello59]

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That is exactly the type of complacency that will ensure it doesn't last long!

According to the accounts it looks like Cummings went for £500k

They are currently raising enough funds to buy 2 Cummings more than us a year

I accept that is a trite statement but for most of my adult life I have watched Hibs teams lose to financially doped Hearts team's

This is different they are raising 10 times we are legitimately

It will I know be donkeys before this translates to money spent on the team, but by then it will be too late

The time for action is now, when our engagement with the club is as high as it is ever likely to get

It’s not complacency. Post 15 sums things up for me.

[Alan62]

The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

[hhibs]

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The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

Agreed,I would think though it needs root and branch reorganisation,to me ,it has thus far been pretty woeful.

[OfficialHSL]

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The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

Alan

As requested please allow us to engage with you and thank you for the points raised in relation to HSL.

You are right to point out that the FOH started out of necessity, while in our case there wasn't the same burning bridge. Having said that it should be acknowledged that it was very clear what was on offer. The proposal asked for about £4m working capital which the fans provided to save the Club. Having saved the Club the fans voluntarily agreed by a margin of 97% in favour to pay £3m towards the cost of their new stand temporarily delaying the final part of the deal. We understand that by May of next year the FOH will own 35% of the Club. At that point, having spent £7m, it would seem likely that they will complete the remaining £2.4m to take ownership of the Club.

We would not argue with your final point since we fully agree that while not expecting to get 8000 fans on board we would have hoped to get closer to half that amount. Please bear in mind the circumstances at the time of our inception and indeed some of the "opposing winds" facing us. In this context our principle aim was to provide a safe and trusted vehicle for all fans to donate whatever amount they could. We think we have achieved that objective but recognise that we are in a different phase now and different things are required. We need help however and one of the best promotional tools we have is word of mouth. If you are already a Member please tell another Hibs fan about us and how they can help our Club.

[Sioux]

Thanks HSL for your feedback

I have to say I wasn't aware that there was an opportunity to simply make a donation/set up DD without the requirement of purchasing shares. That appeals to me. Maybe I missed something in the initial launch but it is perhaps an opportunity arises for HSL to publicise the simple no strings attached donation aspect.

AS they say the more the merrier.

[Alan62]

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Alan

As requested please allow us to engage with you and thank you for the points raised in relation to HSL.

You are right to point out that the FOH started out of necessity, while in our case there wasn't the same burning bridge. Having said that it should be acknowledged that it was very clear what was on offer. The proposal asked for about £4m working capital which the fans provided to save the Club. Having saved the Club the fans voluntarily agreed by a margin of 97% in favour to pay £3m towards the cost of their new stand temporarily delaying the final part of the deal. We understand that by May of next year the FOH will own 35% of the Club. At that point, having spent £7m, it would seem likely that they will complete the remaining £2.4m to take ownership of the Club.

We would not argue with your final point since we fully agree that while not expecting to get 8000 fans on board we would have hoped to get closer to half that amount. Please bear in mind the circumstances at the time of our inception and indeed some of the "opposing winds" facing us. In this context our principle aim was to provide a safe and trusted vehicle for all fans to donate whatever amount they could. We think we have achieved that objective but recognise that we are in a different phase now and different things are required. We need help however and one of the best promotional tools we have is word of mouth. If you are already a Member please tell another Hibs fan about us and how they can help our Club.

Thanks for responding. I am not currently a member of HSL but would certainly consider it again. I still believe that HSL needs to have greater visibility in order to achieve its goals and much more clarity around the proposition. It's hard work, I know. I am a professional marketer, I know the challenges of reaching an audience and sustaining the conversation across multiple channels. It takes time and imagination - particularly when budgets are limited (or even non-existent).

My view would be that HSL should ignore what's happening at FoH and reinvent itself as a much more prominent player within the Hibernian ecosystem with a compelling proposition for supporters who can afford to contribute to its aims. That means fresh ideas are required. Maybe we could take this conversation offline.

[Firestarter]

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Do we have to judge ourselves based on what that lot over there do with their eternal begging bowls. We seem to be doing better than them as it is.

In the long term they will have a constant cash flow though it could be easy for them to stop paying now and leave it to Cludge also.

I've no idea why so many are against putting a tenner a month into making our club grow bigger whilst also being apart of the majority shareholding of it gets the desired amount.

[B.H.F.C]

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In the long term they will have a constant cash flow though it could be easy for them to stop paying now and leave it to Cludge also.

I've no idea why so many are against putting a tenner a month into making our club grow bigger whilst also being apart of the majority shareholding of it gets the desired amount.

I think a big problem is that people don't really understand what 'fan ownership' actually means, what happens if we ever get to that point and so on.

[Alan62]

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I think a big problem is that people don't really understand what 'fan ownership' actually means, what happens when if we ever get to that point and so on.

Which is precisely why that has to be communicated by HSL and the club.

There has to be a credible model for the future that allows the club to continue to progress.

[GreenOnions]

The board are enabling HSL to achieve what some posters on here are saying they want - which is simply to directly fund the playing budget via a DD.

The only real difference from what these fans want is that the scheme does something else at the same time. It is trying to safeguard the club for the future by enabling a significant proportion of its shares to be owned by fans to prevent speculative ownership by the likes of Romanov etc once Sir Tom bows out.

By issuing new shares as opposed to selling existing equity the board are doing exactly what posters above want (ie enabling monthly DDs to go directly to NLs budget) BUT AT THE SAME TIME gradually ceding ownership of the club to fans without profiting themselves.

To be frank - it's difficult to imagine how the scheme itself could be better conceived.