Annual Accounts - The failure of HSL

[Brooster]

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Nae Nookie

Rest assured, will respond soon. Working through the thread from page one. Rest assured we will gladly respond to all points as far as we can. Also please be assured that all of the Directors accept that we are not perfect and there are areas where we could and should have done better. But most of all, we want to do better going forward to deliver more money to our beloved Club.

Thanks for the updates OHSL, very much appreciated. Could you answer 2 questions please?
1. How much per month do you donate to Hibs?
2. What is your plan to tap in to this more deeply? I think the sky is the limit. Who or what do you need to make it take off? Hibs have an excellent PR/Comms team, maybe they could help. Sorry that was more than 2 questions lol.

[Arch Stanton]

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See my comment above ...... Is this the level of our ambition?

OK, I just don't share your ambition to have a rich benefactor - but good luck on that all the same.

[OfficialHSL]

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I would be interested to know what ages are buying shares.

I know these days many of the younger generation dont see shares as a cool thing to have or in most cases can’t afford extra.

The other issue is as always with money is making sure you feel it’s going to something worthwhile.

If there was a simpler way to donate and support the playing side in sure many more would do that.

I also agree about fan ownership - it’s risky.

Hearts aren’t anywhere near it and I’m still not sure how sustainable it will be in the long run with the way football continues to develop and the millions being spent by teams. Nearly every top team has a rich owner of some sort.

City of Green
We can't comment on the age profile of those who bought shares from the Club directly as only they, the Club, have that data. Anecdotal evidence would suggest the majority are 30+ and this would be consistent with our own experience of our Membership.

If you are correct and the younger generation don't see shares as cool then I do hope our proposition offers them what they want. It takes just two minutes to sign up to make a regular monthly donation at http://hiberniansupporters.co.uk/donate.html. All of their funds will go towards helping Neil and the Team.

We suspect that much of the confusion and in some cases conflict surrounding "fan ownership" is caused by the different interpretations of this expression. There are examples of Clubs where fans own 20% of the equity and there isn't any indication of additional risk. Likewise there are examples of Clubs where fans own the majority share and there are no doubt inherent risks associated with that. The Board of the Club took a decision almost three years ago and have set out a path for going forward. In terms of the existing principle shareholder it is a very generous offer that facilitates money going to the Club rather than them.

It is our understanding that Hearts are already 20% owned by the FOH and will in the near future own a 35% stake.

Our aims are rather more simple. To provide a safe, transparent vehicle to allow fans to make voluntary, affordable donations to the Club they love. The ambition for fan ownership ( at whatever level ) is for the fans to decide.

Hope this helps.

[SlickShoes]

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That's the bottom line, not the end game ..... We are a professional football club, not a bowling club, if survival and being around is all that counts we might as well become amateur and play in the south of Scotland league ... the ambition always has to be winning the league and limiting the possibilities of attracting investment which might enable us to do that one day is hardly step one in that process IMO. Chugging along and hoping to 'get lucky' is hardly working towards the goal we all want to achieve on the park.





See my comment above ...... Is this the level of our ambition?

OZZY .... For some reason my reply to your post seems to have been included as if it was part of what you posted ... don't get it, but hope you see my reply.

I do want hibs to win the league I hope thats the ultimate goal for the players as well but football has changed a lot, pretty much my entire life of watching football we have had next to no chance of winning. The big clubs just keep getting richer and even clubs investing millions are lagging a long way behind.

[OfficialHSL]

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There are plenty things in the world that simply exist. Generally, the ones that are more successful market themselves and communicate with people.

HSL seem to merely exist, they're hardly pushing for new members and engaging with existing are they?

BHFC

There are not many who would disagree with your comments, particularly this year. Prior to this we have :

1. Engaged with fans in the East,West and Famous Five stands in the form of Pop up Stands and a physical presence.

2. At the same time as item 1 distributed over 10,000 leaflets on match days.

3. Contacted all Supporter Branch's offering our attendance and presentation. We have attended when invited at both Sunnyside and individual branches and Pubs.

4. Canvassed support on both major Club Forums.

5. Sought free PR in both print media and broadcast.

Have we got all of this right on all occasions - absolutely not. We have done relatively well on Facebook and Twitter but not very well on our Web site.

We have commissioned an outside Firm to develop a new web site and will be inviting Members to contribute their ideas.

Ultimately however it is for each individual supporter to determine their own financial position and decide if the want to make what is essentially a voluntary contribution to their Club.

[OfficialHSL]

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The disparity between HSL and FoH is a bit of a puzzle. I think it's fair to say that FoH benefited massively from being formed at a time of crisis. The FoH supporters have really bought in to 'saving their club' in a big way, which was quite deftly turned into building the stand by the organisers in order to sustain the level of donations. While we've all had a good chuckle at the scale of hyperbole surrounding the new main stand at Tynecastle, it's served its purpose because the donations keep rolling in.

Personally, I find the whole FoH thing extremely odd. It's like a cult. They pay their cash and don't ask questions. The cash goes straight to working capital while, apparently, other people make big decisions on how it's used - like (ahem!) upgrading the facilities in the new stand to a higher level than originally specified.

HSL is a different beast. There's no sense of crisis at Hibs. There isn't a huge appetite for full fan ownership. If anything, the fans reps on the board scheme, has shown that most fans are fish out of water at board level and that the actual demands of the job soon compromises their allegiance with the demands of the average fan.

Having said all that, I don't think HSL has got its message over to folks who would be happy to support it. After all, the money paid in goes direct to the team. HSL needs to make itself more visible to the fans. It has to engage. It has to demonstrate the work it's doing and it has to prove its credibility as a future force in the management of the club. I'm not convinced it's done any of that so far.

Alan

As requested please allow us to engage with you and thank you for the points raised in relation to HSL.

You are right to point out that the FOH started out of necessity, while in our case there wasn't the same burning bridge. Having said that it should be acknowledged that it was very clear what was on offer. The proposal asked for about £4m working capital which the fans provided to save the Club. Having saved the Club the fans voluntarily agreed by a margin of 97% in favour to pay £3m towards the cost of their new stand temporarily delaying the final part of the deal. We understand that by May of next year the FOH will own 35% of the Club. At that point, having spent £7m, it would seem likely that they will complete the remaining £2.4m to take ownership of the Club.

We would not argue with your final point since we fully agree that while not expecting to get 8000 fans on board we would have hoped to get closer to half that amount. Please bear in mind the circumstances at the time of our inception and indeed some of the "opposing winds" facing us. In this context our principle aim was to provide a safe and trusted vehicle for all fans to donate whatever amount they could. We think we have achieved that objective but recognise that we are in a different phase now and different things are required. We need help however and one of the best promotional tools we have is word of mouth. If you are already a Member please tell another Hibs fan about us and how they can help our Club.

[Sioux]

Thanks HSL for your feedback

I have to say I wasn't aware that there was an opportunity to simply make a donation/set up DD without the requirement of purchasing shares. That appeals to me. Maybe I missed something in the initial launch but it is perhaps an opportunity arises for HSL to publicise the simple no strings attached donation aspect.

AS they say the more the merrier.

[OfficialHSL]

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Don't put word in to my mouth. If people can afford to put an extra tenner a month in to the club then thats up to them. It should only be an extra, a bonus if you like, rather than an income stream that the club could not operate without .When a professional organisation paying salaries far in excess of what most fans earn starts running itself like a charity then the whole game needs to take a look at itself.
I do pay in to HSL but I do so in the knowledge that it is no longer a route to full fan ownership. We managed to set up a vehicle for fan ownership that can never achieve a majority shareholding.

Marinello

Thank you for your continued support.

We suspect that the vast majority of our Members share your view and are quite happily paying a sum of money that is surplus to their requirements. We don't ever want any fan to be donating funds they can't afford. You know that your money is going to the Club along with your fellow contributors donations and it is simply designed to provide additional financial support. Not many think too much about fan ownership per se. Our principle target has always been to achieve a 26 % stake and provide a safe and trustworthy vehicle for doing that. The Board of the Club made a decision almost three years ago about the wider share ownership issue and we are operating within the terms of that decision. We just want to get as much additional money into the Club to improve our on field prospects of success.

[truehibernian]

Have to admit, after this thread and reading OHSL and others posts, I'm going to commit to HSL - it's been well explained and I can afford some extra going to the club (fortunately).

With a real drive and promotion, say an extra 2000 members paying £18.75 a month (less than a walk up ticket, about 5 pints up town) I'm encouraged it goes to helping the club attract players. Those kind of numbers could bring in an extra £450,000. That's three or four quality players. I do think however that kind of commitment needs incentivised for those where money is tighter and want a little back - maybe a deal with Hibs TV so they get half year membership or something (Hibs TV is getting a lot better ) - or better discounts with local businesses - from the website this clearly is untapped. Can I propose a discount at Bain's at Stenhouse Cross

Should have a dot counter to count new members

[StevieCowan]

Have HSL seen an increase in members since the OP?

[overdrive]

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There were 2 choices:

1) Buy individual shares

2) Buy through HSL

Buying through HSL you can do at the click of a button and can make individual arrangements funded by you for anyone you wish to, they will then become after the relevant threshold of contributions in HSL is reached a member (not sure if that is the correct term) of HSL

Rest assured the club would not have wanted to put the IFA burden in front of folk if it didn't have to but was legally obliged to do so. This option is presently not on the table anyway.

The second issue of individual shares didn’t require an IFA in any case. You just needed to answer a few questions online to make sure you were aware it was a risky ‘investment’ with no likelihood of ever making a return on it and to confirm you could afford it. You didn’t even have to pay the full amount up front. The chances are Bristol could have bought them if he/she wanted to and could answer the questions (that isn’t intended as a dig at him/her BTW, as I can’t remember how well it was publicised and from many of the comments on here, there seems to be a lot of confusion between the different vehicles to ownership that are/were available).

[BSEJVT]

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The second issue of individual shares didn’t require an IFA in any case. You just needed to answer a few questions online to make sure you were aware it was a risky ‘investment’ with no likelihood of ever making a return on it and to confirm you could afford it. You didn’t even have to pay the full amount up front. The chances are Bristol could have bought them if he/she wanted to and could answer the questions (that isn’t intended as a dig at him/her BTW, as I can’t remember how well it was publicised and from many of the comments on here, there seems to be a lot of confusion between the different vehicles to ownership that are/were available).

You could be right

Was the IFA requirement just for the first direct share sale?

However for the avoidance of all doubt, the only option on the go at present is through HSL.

We need to get talking about HSL again and get promoting it and how easy it is to join within our Hibs supporting friends and acquaintances.

Whatever our motivations and views on fan ownership we cannot allow Hearts this advantage over us as sooner or later they will make use of it.

I cant see there being a donate to Hibs direct option available until the available shares are bought and we must get to 26% to fully secure our future.

Ask not what your club can do for you but what you can do for it (with thanks to JFK)!

[Johnny Clash]

Just wondering exactly why some supporters are opposed to the very idea of fan ownership or fan control.

To me the theory isn’t objectionable. Tom Farmer, for example is a Hibs fan so if those opposing fan ownership don’t want Hibs fans involved - exactly who then do they want?

[Leithenhibby]

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You could be right

Was the IFA requirement just for the first direct share sale?

However for the avoidance of all doubt, the only option on the go at present is through HSL.

We need to get talking about HSL again and get promoting it and how easy it is to join within our Hibs supporting friends and acquaintances.

Whatever our motivations and views on fan ownership we cannot allow Hearts this advantage over us as sooner or later they will make use of it.

I cant see there being a donate to Hibs direct option available until the available shares are bought and we must get to 26% to fully secure our future.

Ask not what your club can do for you but what you can do for it (with thanks to JFK)!

10/10

Absolutely bang on.

Not just the highlighted point, but the post.

Takes two minutes - https://goo.gl/ri7s2d

GGTTH

[CropleyWasGod]

My tuppence here.

The OP was prompted by the drop-off in HSL share money in the year covered by the accounts, ie to June this year. Since then, HSL has had its AGM, and all of the criticism that has been levelled at them was aired then.

The Board took it on the chin, and undertook to do certain things to improve the income. That's only been a couple of months, so I'm happy to give them the chance to actually carry it out, rather than go over old ground which has been covered ad nauseam.

[Alan62]

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Alan

As requested please allow us to engage with you and thank you for the points raised in relation to HSL.

You are right to point out that the FOH started out of necessity, while in our case there wasn't the same burning bridge. Having said that it should be acknowledged that it was very clear what was on offer. The proposal asked for about £4m working capital which the fans provided to save the Club. Having saved the Club the fans voluntarily agreed by a margin of 97% in favour to pay £3m towards the cost of their new stand temporarily delaying the final part of the deal. We understand that by May of next year the FOH will own 35% of the Club. At that point, having spent £7m, it would seem likely that they will complete the remaining £2.4m to take ownership of the Club.

We would not argue with your final point since we fully agree that while not expecting to get 8000 fans on board we would have hoped to get closer to half that amount. Please bear in mind the circumstances at the time of our inception and indeed some of the "opposing winds" facing us. In this context our principle aim was to provide a safe and trusted vehicle for all fans to donate whatever amount they could. We think we have achieved that objective but recognise that we are in a different phase now and different things are required. We need help however and one of the best promotional tools we have is word of mouth. If you are already a Member please tell another Hibs fan about us and how they can help our Club.

Thanks for responding. I am not currently a member of HSL but would certainly consider it again. I still believe that HSL needs to have greater visibility in order to achieve its goals and much more clarity around the proposition. It's hard work, I know. I am a professional marketer, I know the challenges of reaching an audience and sustaining the conversation across multiple channels. It takes time and imagination - particularly when budgets are limited (or even non-existent).

My view would be that HSL should ignore what's happening at FoH and reinvent itself as a much more prominent player within the Hibernian ecosystem with a compelling proposition for supporters who can afford to contribute to its aims. That means fresh ideas are required. Maybe we could take this conversation offline.

[scoopyboy]

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Just wondering exactly why some supporters are opposed to the very idea of fan ownership or fan control.

To me the theory isn’t objectionable. Tom Farmer, for example is a Hibs fan so if those opposing fan ownership don’t want Hibs fans involved - exactly who then do they want?

I think the fear is the club are back on a sound footing and the last thing people want is the club being mismanaged by a bunch of nutters that may damage all the good work done.

Going by some posters on hibs.net I can see where they are coming from to be honest.

[Mikey]

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I think the fear is the club are back on a sound footing and the last thing people want is the club being mismanaged by a bunch of nutters that may damage all the good work done.

Going by some posters on hibs.net I can see where they are coming from to be honest.

There are some absolute bampots who would love to be involved in the running of the club and if we had fan ownership they would undoubtedly muscle their way to the front.

Just being a name that people know would be enough for many. Look how much support Pat Stanton had at the beginning of the client rep vote process.

Fan ownership might sound good but attitudes will change if we ever get to the stage where a letter drops through the door asking for 10p per share from shareholders to cover debts run up.

That said, HSL is still a good idea and a very worthwhile small investment for fans.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I think the fear is the club are back on a sound footing and the last thing people want is the club being mismanaged by a bunch of nutters that may damage all the good work done.

Going by some posters on hibs.net I can see where they are coming from to be honest.

People get confused, though, by management and ownership. For example, STF "owns" us just now, but he rarely gets involved in management. That's the way I would envisage things continuing, even if "we" attain 51% ownership.

And don't forget that STF/HFC/their successors would still be the largest single shareholder, no matter what HSL have. That would remain a very important, and persuasive, force.

[scoopyboy]

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People get confused, though, by management and ownership. For example, STF "owns" us just now, but he rarely gets involved in management. That's the way I would envisage things continuing, even if "we" attain 51% ownership.

And don't forget that STF/HFC/their successors would still be the largest single shareholder, no matter what HSL have. That would remain a very important, and persuasive, force.

Yeah I get that CWG.

I was answering to a poster who couldn't see concerns about fan ownership.

I think a lot of people think that its going to be a bunch of Joe Punters running the club and they have concerns that the club could go t*** up.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Yeah I get that CWG.

I was answering to a poster who couldn't see concerns about fan ownership.

I think a lot of people think that its going to be a bunch of Joe Punters running the club and they have concerns that the club could go t*** up.

Gotcha.

I think it might be useful for us to have some kind of education process on what exactly "fan ownership" would look like, and what "we" could and couldn't do. It might concentrate minds on what it is we are actually working towards, and what the implications are or could be, for the Club and the shareholders.

I'm not volunteering, mind.

[Michael]

Can't wait for the fans to own the club so that we can vote on the starting 11 each week. Fans could also make subs with an app.

[BSEJVT]

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My tuppence here.

The OP was prompted by the drop-off in HSL share money in the year covered by the accounts, ie to June this year. Since then, HSL has had its AGM, and all of the criticism that has been levelled at them was aired then.

The Board took it on the chin, and undertook to do certain things to improve the income. That's only been a couple of months, so I'm happy to give them the chance to actually carry it out, rather than go over old ground which has been covered ad nauseam.

Thanks for your reply

The OP was as you suggest prompted by the drop off in income but more so by the fact that FOH raise 10 times more.

I have spoken to HSL following the OP and there is much we agree on.

I wouldn't want to speak for HSL as I have absolutely no mandate to do so, but it is clear from HSL's own comments on this thread that there is a recognition things could be done better (as is always the case no matter how well something is going)

I have to say I have a massive amount of sympathy for the current incumbents of HSL as they don't seem to have any support at all.

As far as I see it we have 2 choices:

1) We can wait for better days

or

2) We can grab the bull by the horns and do something

What I can say with some certainty is that HSL would welcome any help given to them.

HSL

Can you specify the type of assistance you are looking for please?

Also the time frame within which you will be looking for it?

Also the time commitment required and how often

Thanks


I am happy to collate by PM people's offers in response to the help required if need be.

[Ozyhibby]

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Can't wait for the fans to own the club so that we can vote on the starting 11 each week. Fans could also make subs with an app.

Always good to have some sensible input.


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[overdrive]

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Always good to have some sensible input.


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To be fair, something like this has actually happened in England with 'fan' ownership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MyFootballClub

Apologies for going off-topic.

[NAE NOOKIE]

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OK, I just don't share your ambition to have a rich benefactor - but good luck on that all the same.

Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.

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There are some absolute bampots who would love to be involved in the running of the club and if we had fan ownership they would undoubtedly muscle their way to the front.

Just being a name that people know would be enough for many. Look how much support Pat Stanton had at the beginning of the client rep vote process.

Fan ownership might sound good but attitudes will change if we ever get to the stage where a letter drops through the door asking for 10p per share from shareholders to cover debts run up.

That said, HSL is still a good idea and a very worthwhile small investment for fans.

This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

[BSEJVT]

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Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.



This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

I think the answer lies much as it would do with any company in that the ability to command x% of the shares voting rights would enable you to take a seat on the board.

Up to now this has been done by consensus as STF has held the lions share of the shares

This wont always be the case though

When HSL are entitled to a seat at the table (13% rings a bell but I may be wrong) it's constitution should say who will take that seat.

HSL can you clarify please?

My guess would be that it would be one of its office bearers who in turn will need elected under the terms of its constitution.

I don't disagree with views expressed earlier that there is a danger that it becomes a popularity contest rather than who is well suited to the role, but that's no different to any group of shareholders putting up their own candidate in any walk of life.

It seems to me though that folk are getting a bit over excited and ahead of themselves on this, particularly in so far as any HSL shareholding is concerned and fans shares in general

STF and his nominees will still hold 49% and can effectively block anything that they don't fancy and many of the rank and file shareholders will support him as IMO STF has acted with nothing but the clubs best interests in mind since day 1.

I could point you to Dundee United who have suffered badly since Eddie Thomson died by virtue of the fact that his majority shareholding passed to someone who to put in kindly has struggled to act in the clubs best interests whether through accident or design.

The route we are on protects us from this scenario or a Blackpool Oyston scenario and is IMO clearly the lesser of two evils.

There are more than enough vocal people out their who could command sufficient support and respect amongst the support to make sure that those on the board "played the game" in the clubs best interests.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.



This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

I keep seeing this bit about the fans having to pony up in the event of an emergency. I've, twice, mentioned on this thread why that's unlikely to happen.

So...again.....

The shareholders appoint a Board whose function it is to manage the club properly, and whose experience should assist in forecasting and preparing for the worst. I'm struggling to guess what that.might be, but let's suppose it happens.

As I've said, as football clubs go, we are relatively attractive to outside finance. Low debt, lots of security, and a track record of excellent financial management. That would be the first port of call for "emergency" funding.

As has been said, commercial companies dont immediately turn to their shareholders for cash as soon as they get into crisis. Neither should, or would we IMO.

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[Michael]

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Always good to have some sensible input.


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Only a joke at those who think fan ownership will mean there's a dozen supporters running about East Mains trying to work out where the green bibs were left.

I'm definitely all for HSL.

[Ozyhibby]

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Its not an 'ambition' mate, but it is on the wish list .... I'm not naïve enough to think that there are billionaires out there simply desperate to invest in Hibs, but it happens in football and all I'm saying is next to no chance is better than no chance at all.



This is exactly why I continually ask the question and continue to get no answers about how the club will be run once it is 51% fan owned .... how will board members be appointed? What qualifications apart from just being a Hibs fan will be required? How will they arrive at decisions vital to the wellbeing of the club? ... And for me the biggest question, who will have control of the biggest shareholding IE Tom Farmer's and what if anything will they do with it? The worst thing I can think of is having the biggest shareholder, whoever that might end up being, with no interest in the club.

The last bit of your post is probably the most important part for me ...... Its all well and good having romantic notions of fan ownership, but clubs don't run on goodwill and wishes, they run on hard cash and if an emergency of any sort rears its ugly head where millions are required, without the backing of Tom Farmer's clout in guaranteeing the clubs borrowing or even putting his own money forward as he did when our bank debt was cleared exactly how are at the very most 4000, for the most part ordinary people like me, supposed to come up with that money?

So far as I can see we are stumbling blindly down a path for the clubs future with no clear idea of how we are going to run the place when we finally get there .... I keep hearing what's possible if 8, 10, 15 thousand folk get behind the club in a FOH style funding programme. What I don't see is any evidence that we can get that level of fan involvement and absolutely no concrete statements, ideas or proposals from either the club or HSL as to how this club can raise the finance it will require to compete with its peers apart from pointing to our current level of support on a Saturday, even though its at a level unprecedented in 40 years and far for the norm for this club in the modern era.

I don't know the exact figures, so I'm just going to make up an example of what the club's shareholding could look like in 10 years time, maybe less:

Sir Tom Farmer's family ............... 39%
Hibs supporters Ltd ..................... 26%
Individual private shareholders ..... 25%
Rod Petrie .................................. 10%

What plans are being made to turn that mish mash into a cohesive unit capable of successfully running a football club? .... so far none that I can see.

Have you seen the mish mash of people who own Celtic? They seem to manage. Dermot Desmond owns less than 50% of Celtic and it does not appear to worry him. Celtic fans own over 50% of their shares.
Btw, Rods 10% will be getting diluted as well unless he purchased new shares in the last offer.


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