Hearts’ unnamed benefactor

[lapsedhibee]

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This is an interesting curiosity but nothing that we should be getting worked up about or obsessing over.

They've handed us lots of fun that we really had no right to expect over their new stand - the shambolic project management, the grandiose statements and the high cost and poor quality. It's turned out that their stadium is smaller than ours, it isn't UEFA compliant, they've got a serious squad quality problem, their fan ownership model is at best stalled and in terms of the football on the park they are a good way behind us. I'm inclined to leave the team with Edinburgh's wee stadium to their own weird devices.

Let's focus now on what really matters, doing our talking on the park.

How does this work, this "focusing"? Fans get together, form a focus group, sit cross legged on the floor once a week and clear their minds of all negative thoughts about the yams and the thes, and this makes the team somehow perform better on Saturday afternoons?

Can't see how fans speculating about other teams' finances, infrastructure, players, manager, pies blablabla makes any difference whatsoever to our talking on the park.

[Spike Mandela]

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I'm really not getting the hand-wringing about this "mystery" benefactor.

There is no law or regulation that requires donors to a company, football club or otherwise, to be disclosed. If there were, every football supporter in the country who pops in a fiver to their club's development fund would have to be named. That would include this forum, and everyone who pays into it.

Oh come off it, we aren’t talking about a £5 donation here we are talking about a substantial bung.

After all we have been through in Scottish football over the past 5 years and with authorities claiming to be happy with measures they have in place to clean up football, nobody bats an eyelid at a £2.5m ‘gift’?

What if (for example only)it were from the owner of the construction company that got the order for the stadium or from a senior official involved in planning consent or an expert in administration law or from a mysterious donor in Lithuania, a Russian money launderer or Campbell Ogilvie or David Murray or a government minister or the Jimmy Savile trust or the earl Haig poppy fund or most embarrassingly Donald Trump?

Extreme examples but surely this kind of thing laughs in the face of transparency in football governance.

[Iain G]

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...sits on hands....

I have a feeling I just missed something important 😁

[Bostonhibby]

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I'm really not getting the hand-wringing about this "mystery" benefactor.

There is no law or regulation that requires donors to a company, football club or otherwise, to be disclosed. If there were, every football supporter in the country who pops in a fiver to their club's development fund would have to be named. That would include this forum, and everyone who pays into it.

Appreciate the legal position but you know there's nothing to stop bodies writing their own rules to protect the image and reputation of their business when there's been bad experiences in the past. Hearts and Rangers for example.

Perfectly possible to say that donations of a significant size should be notified to SPFL to at least let them make a conscious decision about whether the donation carries any reputational or other risks?

Just a thought.



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[CropleyWasGod]

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Appreciate the legal position but you know there's nothing to stop bodies writing their own rules to protect the image and reputation of their business when there's been bad experiences in the past. Hearts and Rangers for example.

Perfectly possible to say that donations of a significant size should be notified to SPFL to at least let them make a conscious decision about whether the donation carries any reputational or other risks?

Just a thought.



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Not sure there have been any "bad experiences" involving donors. Owners and lenders, yes, but they're disclosed.

[Bostonhibby]

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It's got hee-haw to do with Hibs. If you're worried about it, contact the SPFL or the SFA or the auditors of Hearts Accounts.

I never do worry about it, I was pointing out how there is in fact a direct link between the governing body of which Hibs is a member, the Hibs board, and any Hibs fan who is looking to raise a point that way.

Hibs are a member of the SPFL.

Down the years, if I have an issue with the club I wait until the shareholders AGM and stick a question in then so I personally don't ever see the fans rep as being the way to go if I need to at least raise a question on something like this. Outcome tends to be the same though

[Bostonhibby]

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Not sure there have been any "bad experiences" involving donors. Owners and lenders, yes, but they're disclosed.

Lets just call it the covert givers of money then, and the stench it sometimes leaves behind

I'd prefer us to be involved in efforts to make disclosure of funds fairer and transparent. Maybe a minority view.

[One Day Soon]

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How does this work, this "focusing"? Fans get together, form a focus group, sit cross legged on the floor once a week and clear their minds of all negative thoughts about the yams and the thes, and this makes the team somehow perform better on Saturday afternoons?

Can't see how fans speculating about other teams' finances, infrastructure, players, manager, pies blablabla makes any difference whatsoever to our talking on the park.

There seems to me to be a difference on the one hand between ripping the pi5h out of them when it's merited or looking closely at their dodgy dealings when there are any and on the other becoming obsessional about stuff that just makes us look like the green and white faction of the tin-foil hat brigade.

Put it another way, there's plenty to legitimately laugh at, question and generally ridicule without getting paranoid about an anonymous benefactor openly lodged in their accounts.

[CropleyWasGod]

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I have a feeling I just missed something important 😁

Ha ... he mentioned the 6%, and I'm trying not to rise to the bait every time it's mentioned.

Failing miserably......

[Hiber-nation]

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Knowing the governance of a company board I'd accept there's a lot of detail and confidential aspects a member can't discuss.

But as fans reps are on the board of Hibs, and Hibs are members of the SPFL and are in positions where such things can be discussed I don't think it's unreasonable to expect our club to have a position on funding sources and if fans want to know the club's view on this issue or any other one the fans representatives seems a decent place to start?

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Fair enough but I think it is unreasonable. It has nothing to do with Hibs.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Oh come off it, we aren’t talking about a £5 donation here we are talking about a substantial bung.

After all we have been through in Scottish football over the past 5 years and with authorities claiming to be happy with measures they have in place to clean up football, nobody bats an eyelid at a £2.5m ‘gift’?

What if (for example only)it were from the owner of the construction company that got the order for the stadium or from a senior official involved in planning consent or an expert in administration law or from a mysterious donor in Lithuania, a Russian money launderer or Campbell Ogilvie or David Murray or a government minister or the Jimmy Savile trust or the earl Haig poppy fund or most embarrassingly Donald Trump?

Extreme examples but surely this kind of thing laughs in the face of transparency in football governance.

We know, with a fair amount of certainty, who it was from.

As for "nobody bats an eyelid", as has been said, the bank, the solicitors and the auditors will all have asked the appropriate questions.

[lapsedhibee]

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Ha ... he mentioned the 6%, and I'm trying not to rise to the bait every time it's mentioned.

Failing miserably......

IF this is true though, the loan is carrying an ongoing cost:

One little surprise (although I suspected it was the case) is that Bidco has been charging an ongoing "Arrangement Fee" which amounts to £22k over the year in respect of the £2.4m loan. I haven't seen any reference to any arrangement fee other than the initial £110,000 which was mentioned in the original loan agreement. I suspected that this had been going on because I couldn't reconcile the amount of interest (and arrangement fee) charged (£172K) in previous years, by doing an interest calculation on its own

[Bostonhibby]

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Fair enough but I think it is unreasonable. It has nothing to do with Hibs.

No problem

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[lapsedhibee]

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There seems to me to be a difference on the one hand between ripping the pi5h out of them when it's merited or looking closely at their dodgy dealings when there are any and on the other becoming obsessional about stuff that just makes us look like the green and white faction of the tin-foil hat brigade.

Put it another way, there's plenty to legitimately laugh at, question and generally ridicule without getting paranoid about an anonymous benefactor openly lodged in their accounts.

Don't think anyone's getting paranoid, are they? Would agree that anonymous benefaction is not generally something to get excited about, but it's bound to prick up a few ears when that club's recent history includes so much dodgy dealing, and when its current owner is clearly not very bothered about telling the truth.

[CropleyWasGod]

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IF this is true though, the loan is carrying an ongoing cost:

One little surprise (although I suspected it was the case) is that Bidco has been charging an ongoing "Arrangement Fee" which amounts to £22k over the year in respect of the £2.4m loan. I haven't seen any reference to any arrangement fee other than the initial £110,000 which was mentioned in the original loan agreement. I suspected that this had been going on because I couldn't reconcile the amount of interest (and arrangement fee) charged (£172K) in previous years, by doing an interest calculation on its own

Good spot. Is that from JKB?

I went back to the HMFC accounts for 2016. There was an arrangement fee of £110k on the £2.4m loan. It looks like this was being paid off over 5 years, at £22k pa., although the wording is a bit ambiguous. It further looks as if it was paid off in full in the 2016 accounts. The 2017 accounts will clarify that.

[lapsedhibee]

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Good spot. Is that from JKB?

Yes. Mr Footballfirst over there is the person who dissects.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Yes. Mr Footballfirst over there is the person who dissects.

Does he have the actual accounts, rather than the EEN report?

[lapsedhibee]

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Does he have the actual accounts, rather than the EEN report?

http://cdn.heartsfc.co.uk/assets/dow...20ACCOUNTS.pdf

[Ozyhibby]

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We know, with a fair amount of certainty, who it was from.

As for "nobody bats an eyelid", as has been said, the bank, the solicitors and the auditors will all have asked the appropriate questions.

The appropriate questions from solicitors, banks and auditors these days is ‘how can we make this look legal?’. I admire your faith in the uk’s financial authorities.
This is about football governance though and there is nothing to stop football applying higher standards if they so wished.
People saying it has nothing to do with Hibs? It’s up to the SPFL/SFA? We are those organisations along with the other clubs. It has everything to do with Hibs. If we want change then it has to be through Hibs.
You can see from those accounts the importance of European football. This year it’s possible that we will miss out on a chance to make money from a European run because Sevco are currently spending millions raised from offshore. This has everything to do with Hibs and has a direct impact on the quality of player we can afford to bring to the club.
Concentrating on Hibs while those around us overspend to beat us has not served us well so far.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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http://cdn.heartsfc.co.uk/assets/dow...20ACCOUNTS.pdf

Thanks for that.

A brief skim through....

1. Dr B's proof-reader is at it again. Her Report is appallingly written. Apparently, they have had an "e-typical year".

2. they have, unlike us, separated out "loan fee income". Presumably, this is money they receive from clubs for their players out on loan. £260k for the year.

3. without the donation, they would have made a loss of £179k.

4. they obtained a loan of £1.75m in October 2017. I can't see from whom, and on what terms.

5. the interest holiday to Dr B is still in place, until May 2018.

5. the arrangement fee of £22k pa is still ongoing.

[CropleyWasGod]

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The appropriate questions from solicitors, banks and auditors these days is ‘how can we make this look legal?’. I admire your faith in the uk’s financial authorities.
This is about football governance though and there is nothing to stop football applying higher standards if they so wished.
People saying it has nothing to do with Hibs? It’s up to the SPFL/SFA? We are those organisations along with the other clubs. It has everything to do with Hibs. If we want change then it has to be through Hibs.
You can see from those accounts the importance of European football. This year it’s possible that we will miss out on a chance to make money from a European run because Sevco are currently spending millions raised from offshore. This has everything to do with Hibs and has a direct impact on the quality of player we can afford to bring to the club.
Concentrating on Hibs while those around us overspend to beat us has not served us well so far.


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It really isn't.

[lapsedhibee]

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4. they obtained a bank loan of £1.75m in October 2017. I can't see from whom, and on what terms.

5. the interest holiday to Dr B is still in place, until May 2018.

5. the arrangement fee of £22k pa is still ongoing.

Aye and can your proof reader not count to 6?

JKBers saying loan is at 2.5% and some speculation that loaner might be Julie Andrews herself.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Aye and can your proof reader not count to 6?

JKBers saying loan is at 2.5% and some speculation that loaner might be Julie Andrews herself.

I'm daein this voluntarily, no for £22k pa

Think it said bank finance, but I'll check later. The Hibs accounts are out.............

Edit, no they're no.....

The HMFC accounts just say "Additional loan facilities", although I think (Cav will confirm this ) that if it is a Dr B loan, it would have to be disclosed as such.

[MrSmith]

I'm gobsmacked they got a bank loan

[Bostonhibby]

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I'm gobsmacked they got a bank loan

Maybe they own another bank again so they can owe it to themselves?

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[Caversham Green]

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It really isn't.

I'm out of the game now, but after the demise of Arthur Andersen it was quite the reverse - I can't see that having changed much over the last few years.

[Hibs4185]

Their stadium finance has always intrigued me. The business made a loss without a £2.5 million donation from a mysterious benefactor.

Budge said the £13million for the stand was made up of:

£5.5 million from normal football activities (you've made a loss so how's that?)
£6.5 million from benefactors (where were these benefactors to buy the club out of admin?)
£1.5 from FOH (fair enough)

These figures were from memory so maybe not 100% accurate but I'm confident not too far away. So mysterious benefactors have contributed £8-9 million. I know clubs have a lot of rich fans but I just can't see it. I think Budge must've contributed a lot more than she has let on-hence mysterious.

FOH think they are due her £3 million odd which if they keep up current donations will be 2 years. Maybe if the yam hordes think the figure is actually £8 million they might get disillusioned with the thought of paying her back for many years to come.

Soemthing doesn't add up

[Lago]

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Obviously it’s was Budge that donated probably feeling a little guilty about her 6% return on her initial investment but who really cares? Without the donation and the £125k from the fans they would have made a serious loss

Claiming a 2.3millionn profit in today's paper.

[CropleyWasGod]

Something else which has just caught my eye...

They have Net Current Liabilities of £135k, which is a £2m negative swing from the previous year.

Most of this is due to an increase in Trade Creditors of £1.3m, to £2.2m. Not sure if this is an indication of cash-flow problems, or perhaps reflects the increased activity on the stand. However, it probably explains why they needed the loan in October.

Oh, and £5.7m from FOH thus far..... and no shares.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Claiming a 2.3millionn profit in today's paper.

..which is true, AFTER the £2.5m donation.