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  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said, but I think the section of your post I've quoted above would benefit from further discussion in the context of this case.

    From what I've read on here in posts where people have explained why the feel the sentence was unduly lenient, the actions of the killer in the hours preceding the fatal attack play a big part. I don't disagree that intent is important in law, but even to be convicted of murder, it does not have to be shown that you intended to kill.

    Part of me wonders, if the killer's representatives are successful in their appeal and a retrial is ordered, whether COPFS may decide to proceed with the retrial on a charge of murder. It's very unlikely for a variety of reasons, but I wouldn't entirely rule it out.
    To be convicted of murder, there does have to be proof you intended to kill OR that you showed "reckless disregard" for the life of your victim.

    If he successfully appeals there might not necessarily be a retrial. That's one possible outcome. Was he tried for murder in the first place? If not, I don't think they would be able to upgrade the charge, but I'm not 100% certain on that.

    I don't think the killer's actions prior to the incident really prove anything, certainly not in terms of what happened to the victim. Yes he was clearly looking for "bother", but again, this is not the same as setting out to kill someone. Given the perpetrator and the victim were unknown to each other until presumably seconds before the fatal blow was struck, getting a murder conviction would seem next to impossible to me in this case.


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  3. #62
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
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    To be convicted of murder, there does have to be proof you intended to kill OR that you showed "reckless disregard" for the life of your victim.
    Exactly. Proving a person acting recklessly without regard to the consequences of their actions is not the same as proving someone intended to kill. I've seen a number of prosecutions (and convictions) based on the former. Anyway, my point is there doesn't need to be intent, which I think we've agreed on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
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    Was he tried for murder in the first place? If not, I don't think they would be able to upgrade the charge, but I'm not 100% certain on that.
    The charge was originally murder, but was reduced to culpable homicide. Counsel would be able to commence a retrial on the charge of murder if that was the accepted recommendation from COPFS. As I said before, it's unlikely, but a whole variety of things may have changed since the original trial by the time any retrial comes around.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
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    I don't think the killer's actions prior to the incident really prove anything, certainly not in terms of what happened to the victim. Yes he was clearly looking for "bother", but again, this is not the same as setting out to kill someone. Given the perpetrator and the victim were unknown to each other until presumably seconds before the fatal blow was struck, getting a murder conviction would seem next to impossible to me in this case.
    As stated above, there's no requirement to prove he set out to kill someone. I think the killer's actions leading up to the attack are certainly relevant to whether or not his conduct was wilfully reckless, but my point was that I think that's the opinion of a lot of people on here, which is why they consider the sentence to have been so lenient.

    I think your previous posts have been explaining why things are not always black and white in the justice system. I was trying to expand on that and focus on the disconnect between the behaviour of the killer (not just the fatal blow) and the sentence (i.e. the reduced charge), as I think a lot of people are upset between the lack of a direct link between the two.

    There will always be bad decisions made during the process as those involved are human and humans make mistakes. There will also always be those who think a conviction or acquittal is wrong, a sentence too short or too long - after all it's also human nature that we view things differently to one another and have differing opinions.

    Taking all that into account, our justice system is one of the oldest in the world still being used and because of that, I think it's evolved. It's not simple, it's not straightforward, but deciding a person's guilt or innocence and the fate of the rest of their lives (along with the impact on their family, the victim and the victim's family) shouldn't be simple and straightforward.

  4. #63
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    My main issue is that people can get swept up in hysteria around cases and just aren’t prepared to think about what they’re saying or why the decisions that have been taken have occurred. Mostly it’s just “This is a disgrace!!”, sign an online petition, but make zero effort to actually look into things more closely - i.e. the facts of the case, how the system works etc.

    We always here about the supposedly bad decisions, but got every one of those there are probably 10 good ones! Can anyone even name an offender where their sentence was a “disgrace” who has actually come out of prison and reoffended in the same way?

  5. #64
    The bare facts of the case are that the perpetrator proceeded to assault the then unknown to him victim with force and violence ending ultimately in killing the victim. The force and violence was witnessed by others who attested to it during the case.

    The force and violence used could have secured a murder charge in my view however intent is a key factor and a murder charge would have been risky due to doubt regarding the element of intention to murder.

    Having proven culpable homocide with force and violence being the singular cause of killing the victim the bare facts should have been adequate for a sentence the public would accept as being reasonable.

    Was four years the sentence the public deemed reasonable especially given the circumstances of the perpetrator earlier that evening engaging in similar acts of assault and aggression in the hours prior to using force and violence that ultimately ended in him killing?

    Four years in my opinion was neither due punishment or a suitable deterrent for other potentially aggressive young persons who might engage in similar acts of violence which end up killing folk.

    The family had every right to challenge the sentence with a great number of the public agreeing with them and signing a petition that the sentence was unduly lenient given the force and violence used.

    The Judges are there to ensure justice is appropriate and in this case its clear the family and the public at large do not agree it was in this case.

    The bare facts of this case should have ensured a lengthier sentence of around six to eight years in my opinion.

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
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    My main issue is that people can get swept up in hysteria around cases and just aren’t prepared to think about what they’re saying or why the decisions that have been taken have occurred. Mostly it’s just “This is a disgrace!!”, sign an online petition, but make zero effort to actually look into things more closely - i.e. the facts of the case, how the system works etc.

    We always here about the supposedly bad decisions, but got every one of those there are probably 10 good ones! Can anyone even name an offender where their sentence was a “disgrace” who has actually come out of prison and reoffended in the same way?
    A legal friend of mine often said that justice and the application of the law are often separate things.

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member EH6 Hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
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    My main issue is that people can get swept up in hysteria around cases and just aren’t prepared to think about what they’re saying or why the decisions that have been taken have occurred. Mostly it’s just “This is a disgrace!!”, sign an online petition, but make zero effort to actually look into things more closely - i.e. the facts of the case, how the system works etc.

    We always here about the supposedly bad decisions, but got every one of those there are probably 10 good ones! Can anyone even name an offender where their sentence was a “disgrace” who has actually come out of prison and reoffended in the same way?
    I think there are several similarities between Shaun's case and this one.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...ears-1-4520236

    I remember people being outraged at the 5 year sentence given for what was a racist attack on a delivery driver.

  8. #67
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...uched-11764704

    I wouldn't usually post a DR link but haven't seen this reported elsewhere.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by EH6 Hibby View Post
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    I think there are several similarities between Shaun's case and this one.

    https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...ears-1-4520236

    I remember people being outraged at the 5 year sentence given for what was a racist attack on a delivery driver.
    His brother did similar. Although he chose to stab the owner of a Chinese takeaway several times.

  10. #69
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    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...mile-1-4665143

    Victim lives and the offender gets 7years. Our justice system is a horrific mess

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzywuzzy View Post
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    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...mile-1-4665143

    Victim lives and the offender gets 7years. Our justice system is a horrific mess
    You've missed the point that this offender in the link has FORTY-SIX previous convictions, including for violence, and including previously being imprisoned.

    In Mr Woodburn's case, the offender (I think) had no previous convictions and was considerably younger.

    Each case is judged on its own merits and circumstances which I think is far from a "horrific mess".

  12. #71
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
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    You've missed the point that this offender in the link has FORTY-SIX previous convictions, including for violence, and including previously being imprisoned.

    In Mr Woodburn's case, the offender (I think) had no previous convictions and was considerably younger.

    Each case is judged on its own merits and circumstances which I think is far from a "horrific mess".
    He may not have missed the point. He may believe that the lack of previous convictions does not justify the lenience of the Woodburns killers sentence, which is also my position.

  13. #72
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    I could understand the leniency if the Shaun Woodburn incident itself was isolated.

    But to my mind, the fact that this incident was at the end of a "rampage" involving inciting several incidents on the one night makes it many times worse.

    The age of the offender doesn't matter - when you go on a rampage, the culmination of which is the death of another man, the public needs to be protected by having you off the streets for a very long time.

    The offender isn't 8 or 9 - they are old enough to know that what they did was wrong.

  14. #73
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I could understand the leniency if the Shaun Woodburn incident itself was isolated.

    But to my mind, the fact that this incident was at the end of a "rampage" involving inciting several incidents on the one night makes it many times worse.

    The age of the offender doesn't matter - when you go on a rampage, the culmination of which is the death of another man, the public needs to be protected by having you off the streets for a very long time.

    The offender isn't 8 or 9 - they are old enough to know that what they did was wrong.
    Age and previous convictions do matter, in law, when it comes to sentencing. Judges MUST take those things into account or they’re literally not doing their job.

    Perhaps the rampage was taken into account as an aggravating factor, I’d have to see the actual notes from sentencing but I don’t think they’re online?

  15. #74
    Testimonial Due KingFranck's Avatar
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    I see now the killer has turned 18 he has now been named in all the media

    Mohammed Ibnomer

    ****bag

  16. #75
    @hibs.net private member Speedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingFranck View Post
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    I see now the killer has turned 18 he has now been named in all the media

    Mohammed Ibnomer

    ****bag
    Saw that this morning. Not sure I see the benefit of naming him.

  17. #76
    I see the guy caught stealing at the MEN last year was sentenced this (or last) week to 4 years in prison as well. As despicable as his actions were are we really to accept it's in the same ballpark as taking a life?
    PM Awards General Poster of The Year 2015, 2016, 2017. Probably robbed in other years

  18. #77
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I see the guy caught stealing at the MEN last year was sentenced this (or last) week to 4 years in prison as well. As despicable as his actions were are we really to accept it's in the same ballpark as taking a life?
    I’m sure there must be more to that one. 4 years for a minor (I think?) theft doesn’t seem right, irrespective of the circumstances.

    Edit - Apparently not - I didn’t know the full circumstances of this. Pretty poor stuff. Agree that the same sentence for these offences doesn’t really equate. Can only assume this guy has quite a bit of previous.

    https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jan/30/manchester-attack-homeless-hero-jailed-for-theft-from-victims
    Last edited by Steve-O; 04-02-2018 at 07:50 AM.

  19. #78
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve-O View Post
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    Age and previous convictions do matter, in law, when it comes to sentencing. Judges MUST take those things into account or they’re literally not doing their job.

    Perhaps the rampage was taken into account as an aggravating factor, I’d have to see the actual notes from sentencing but I don’t think they’re online?
    They wouldn't be published at the time due to the age of the offender and I've never known them to be published retrospectively.

  20. #79
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    They wouldn't be published at the time due to the age of the offender and I've never known them to be published retrospectively.
    Unfortunate given they can shut down a lot of the rampant speculation and ideas that Judges just pluck a figure out of thin air based on how they’re feeling on the day!

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